End of seeking

[Rodders]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self that I have so far taken myself to be does not actually exist in the real world and is only a thought. On looking for this self no actual self can be found but rather thoughts, feelings and sensations. There is no controller or doer as such at the centre of it all. (Easier to write about than experience)

What are you looking for at LU?
I have been at this a while but not inquiry for very long so I would rather start it in the right way with someone that might be able to help if I get lost. I have gone it alone mostly so far. I am looking to directly experience that there is no doer and have no doubt about this - everything else should fall into place from there.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Probably just someone to help keep me on track and perhaps see what I might otherwise miss. A reason to write is probably helpful, not that I don’t have the motivation. I think I have gone past the realm of motivation.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Started with self help – I was a junkie at that for a good while trying to fix everything I saw as wrong. When I realised that was futile and though gave results still lead to an overall dissatisfaction with life. I turned to meditation(TM) which also helped but ultimately led to pretty much the same place. I became addicted to my practices and eventually overdid it with various Yoga/meditation practices. I ended up getting RASA transmissions since I could no longer practice which did cause a certain shift in prespective certainly a palpable stillness could be felt underneath everything after this and a lot of negative thought patterns also seemed to subside and did not really return. I did Jeffrey martin’s 45 days to awakening course most recently which did lead to a deepening of meditation and probably the stillness felt in daily life. Despite all this there is still seeking! I have been reading the gateless gatecrashers book and It does seem to be starting to click. I see there is a bit of a waitlist so hopefully it has sunk in by then.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[graceabounds]

Hello,

Thank you for your patience in waiting for a guide. I resonated with what you wrote and would be happy to be present in this inquiry with you. :)

Before we start please read both the following documents from LU carefully and let me know if you have any questions, doubts or reservations in regards to them:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Looking forward,
Becca

[Rodders]

Hi Becca,

Thanks so much for coming back to me and offering your time.

I have read fully everything in the two links you sent and there is no doubt in my mind that I would like to press ahead.

Many thanks,

Mat

[graceabounds]

Hi Mat,

A little housekeeping:

1 Please subscribe to this thread by clicking the little wrench icon above (dropdown says ‘subscribe topic’). This way you will receive an email when I reply.

2 Please also watch this brief video on how to use the quote function in this forum. Use this liberally to answer each question individually and reference anything in our communication.
https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ?si=z_CWDFiEqh6qlcaC

I am looking to directly experience that there is no doer and have no doubt about this

Great, let’s start here. With getting out any and all expectations about what it will mean when no doer is directly experienced:

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?
2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
3. What do you want not to happen?
4. What are you hoping for?
5. What is missing?

In gratitude,
Becca

[Rodders]

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?

I am hoping it will be the end of seeking and the niggling feeling that something is incomplete and needs to be addressed will be gone and life can be allowed to continue without resistance. What seems clear as per what I have already read is that nothing really changes and life continues the same as before but there is a change of perspective which changes the relationship with life and it is more directly experienced without an intermediate filter through an ‘I’.
I have been on this hamster wheel for a while now. Self help, AYP, Buddhism, reading countless books on spirituality, RASA, 45 days to awakening, Shaktipat, Vortex healing, Attunements etc etc etc. All part of the story of a ‘me’ I guess.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

As a result when this core belief of a fictitious I being seen through all the other belief’s that are built on top of this one begin to fall away which I believe can take time. Either way, the process of deconditioning has irreversibly begun and over time ones true nature should shine through the body mind as residual belief’s fall away.
There is a feeling that there is something to see through and there is a cosmic joke that I am not in on. And I believe I will never be in on but something greater than I can.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don’t want to get to the end of this process and have any doubt that the seeking is over and end up seeking again.

4. What are you hoping for?

I’m hoping for peace/contentment and an end to the niggling feeling that something just feels off.

5. What is missing?

I believe a feeling of wholeness is missing. Perhaps not a feeling. More of an absence of underlying dissatisfaction.

[graceabounds]

Nice.

Not unrealistic, what is written here, but also all expectations are ultimately a hinderance. You have a ton of drive, certainty… take ALL of that energy and momentum out of the past and future and focus it right here:

I am hoping it will be the end of seeking

I don’t want to get to the end of this process and have any doubt that the seeking is over and end up seeking again.

What stops seeking is the recognition that there is no seeker. That recognition isn’t waiting in the future—it’s either seen now or it remains a concept.

Is there, anywhere, an actual “I” who is waiting for this shift? Look.

Are you a seeker right now, or is “seeker” just a concept, a thought arising?

I believe a feeling of wholeness is missing.

What if nothing is missing? What if what’s here, right now, is already whole—but it’s simply not being recognized because of an expectation of something else?

The joke isn’t cosmic. It’s immediate. It’s that you’ve been chasing something that isn’t lost. It’s that you already are what you’ve been looking for, and the search itself was the only veil.

Drop all concepts, all beliefs, all waiting. Let them melt away.

What remains, right now?

[Rodders]

Becca, I realise the below is a bit of a mindless rant and probably a fair few Rhetorical questions(for you not me)but posting anyway. Not sure if this is the right way or not. Cheers for being so prompt and soz for the delay here.

Is there, anywhere, an actual “I” who is waiting for this shift? Look.

A feeling arisies that there is something inside that is waiting for the shift. When I look I get a sense of a feeling in the stomach Who is waiting for the seeking to end….spontaneous crying happening. Not sure why. Is this a distraction. This has been going on since I started ‘looking’. I see there are a list of expectations: I want the end of seeking, I want to be at peace, I want to see through the false I, IIII, Where is the I? Where does it live? What is holding on? What won’t let go? Is there something in here? Is there a controller living inside? I don’t have good answers to the questions. I will keep looking but I don’t think it is me that needs to see the truth. Something else does?

Are you a seeker right now, or is “seeker” just a concept, a thought arising?

Right now, in this moment, there isn’t really a seeker there is just a person frantically typng on a keyboard that has been labelled a seeker

I look and I don’t find a seeker as such. The seeker is a label for a me that is typing these words right now. I have been looking for an I but the penny has not yet dropped. I have written pages and pages of waffle and seem to be going round in circles. How can I find something when the I doesn’t exist in the first place. It feels like there is somebody here but when I investigate the feelings/sensations/thoughts I find nothing. Is that enough to convince me that I don’t exist? I can’t see the belief in the false I. It’s like all the feelings in the body plus a sense of aliveness and date from all the senses equals an I but when you zoom in on any of them you just find individual sensation with the odd thought thrown in which isn’t an I.

The seeker is a label applied to feeling of there being ‘someone’ there. When I look for this someone inside It’s almost like a mirage or a ghost in your peripheral vision. As soon as you get close or look directly you find nothing. I was drawn to the top of the head sometimes as if that is where the I lives. Then I find sensations, some bliss and perhaps a feeling of aliveness. Maybe the I lives in the chest…Again I have a sense of aliveness in there . Some blissful feeling and some sensations but who is obeserving this? Who is obessrving the pressure in the head. Can the sense of aliveness be observing? It must be outside of the sense of aliveness to do this. What is real? It’s not the seeking I need to give up, it’s the seeker itself(more crying).

What if nothing is missing? What if what’s here, right now, is already whole—but it’s simply not being recognized because of an expectation of something else?

This could be a thing. As I have written more there seem to be more expectations than I had initially written.

What remains, right now?

Just this moment

[graceabounds]

You’re right in the thick of it Mat. This isn’t a rant—it’s a direct confrontation with the thing that refuses to be found. Keep looking.

A feeling arisies that there is something inside that is waiting for the shift. When I look I get a sense of a feeling in the stomach Who is waiting for the seeking to end….spontaneous crying happening. Not sure why.

Where exactly is this “I” that’s waiting? The feeling in the stomach—does it say “I am waiting”? Or is there just sensation, and then a thought that says “this means I am waiting”? Look closer.

Spontaneous crying happens. This process can be emotional. Next time it happens notice: is it associated with a particular thought or a sensation or both?

How can I find something when the I doesn’t exist in the first place. It feels like there is somebody here but when I investigate the feelings/sensations/thoughts I find nothing. Is that enough to convince me that I don’t exist?

‘ Feels like’. But where? When you zoom in, you find only sensations and thoughts. So what does feels like entail?
If you never had the thought “I,” would those sensations alone be enough to construct a separate entity?

The thought that there is an I will never be convinced because it is the mechanism that generates the illusion.

When I look for this someone inside It’s almost like a mirage or a ghost in your peripheral vision. As soon as you get close or look directly you find nothing. I was drawn to the top of the head sometimes as if that is where the I lives. Then I find sensations, some bliss and perhaps a feeling of aliveness. Maybe the I lives in the chest…Again I have a sense of aliveness in there . Some blissful feeling and some sensations but who is obeserving this? Who is obessrving the pressure in the head.

Who indeed. Who is looking? Is there a feeling of aliveness without a thought about it? Describe the raw sensation of ‘feeling of aliveness’ Do these sensations still exist without a who to observe?

Please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered. Generally this process will be driven by seeing what is already happening, what is already the case. What is effortlessly seen while engaging questions and exercises is what is important. What you actually write me is secondary to that.

[Rodders]

Hi Becca, thanks for the encouragement. Still chipping away at this. Again, not really editing this. Wrote must of this yesterday and have struggled this morning with a fair bit of emotional release. A lot actually so have struggled to really see the detail that I am trying to see in regarads to that. I am still looking. What time zone are you in btw?

Where exactly is this “I” that’s waiting? The feeling in the stomach—does it say “I am waiting”? Or is there just sensation, and then a thought that says “this means I am waiting”? Look closer.

It feels like it’s always watching and looking for an anomaly or spiritual experience that will reinforce the story that I am awakening or awakened. Looking for this I, Even now it waits for a shift . I am drawn to the chest area. Am I drawn or does sensation arise in the chest area and a spontaneous movement of attention(before). I clearly have a belief that I am going to awaken. But where is this I that can awaken?The belief in the I is what keeps this thing going. Where is the I. The question am I going to awaken arises? A thought nothing more. What else is hiding? And if it is hiding, who is it hiding from? An I? I don’t find an I. I find sensations in the body, looking, sitting action, the thought arises – I think I’m making progress here…Where is the I that is making progress? I know he can’t be found right. I know. Who knows? A sensation in the chest doesn’t constitute an I does it. Typing happens of its own accordIs ther something watching the typer? Someone living behind the eyes perhaps? I don’t find anyone. I find sensation, pressure, hot/cold, bliss,

Where is this I???More a belief coming from somewhere that I am waiting for this big shift. Then I will know I’m done. Even though I have already seen something else wakes up through this body, Still I am waiting to wake up. This I There is no I in the stomach but there is a feeling of slight tension, a slight unease. Same in the chest area, slight tension and unease. What is this tension? Does anyone own the tension? Back to looking for an I again that cannot be found. The tension does not qualify as an I. There is actually tension in the head as well but also bliss. Something can witness all of this going on but not a personal I. A thought about a shift sometime in the future arises but this is not clear yet.

Spontaneous crying happens. This process can be emotional. Next time it happens notice: is it associated with a particular thought or a sensation or both?

There have been more tears. Despair and futility. I want to give up this shit. There is a lot of pain beneath the seeking. Trying to see what it is but not clear yet. Feel like the seeking is just a mask to hide the pain so I don’t have to face/feel it. Now I do though. Think I will have to come back to this once it passes.

‘ Feels like’. But where? When you zoom in, you find only sensations and thoughts. So what does feels like entail?
If you never had the thought “I,” would those sensations alone be enough to construct a separate entity?(It feels like there is somebody here)

‘Feels like’ seems like it is sensation plus a voice in the head talking about it. There seems to be an internal dialogue going all the time that is mostly out of conscious awareness. Seems that It’s more noticeable just now. It’s behind the internal dialogue though. That's where I need to look.

Who indeed. Who is looking? Is there a feeling of aliveness without a thought about it? Describe the raw sensation of ‘feeling of aliveness’ Do these sensations still exist without a who to observe?

Yes the feeling of aliveness is before thought no doubt about that. It’s like a brightness though doesn’t seem to be localised to the body. It feels like it is everywhere. Or is it just here. Maybe just here.

Please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Sat with this a good while and not much is coming up. Will keep looking.

[graceabounds]

You’re circling it, but you’re still waiting for some final confirmation, some event, some shift that will make you “done.” This waiting itself is the last illusion. Who is waiting? What is waiting?

I clearly have a belief that I am going to awaken.

What is holding that belief? Is it an actual thing? Or is it just another thought arising, like all the rest?

(Hint: it is a thought because it is future tense)

Even though I have already seen something else wakes up through this body, Still I am waiting to wake up.

You have already seen it. Yet the mind spins a story of incompleteness. Who is the one waiting? What does that one consist of? Is it anything more than tension in the chest, sensations in the stomach, and a string of thoughts interpreting those sensations?

Drop the belief that something more is needed. Drop the expectation that something will shift. Is there anything left to wait for?

When spontaneous crying happens, let it come. But notice—who owns it? Is there actually a “you” at the center of that experience, or just emotions and thoughts playing out?

Here’s a formula that may be helpful:
Emotion = thought + sensation

Drop into the raw, direct experience of this moment—without the belief in an “I” that is moving through it. Drop even the labels of the objects in the space, the names for the sounds that are being heard. What is present?

[Rodders]

Hi Becca,

I'm still working on these questions. Really they're all the same question. I've been sitting with this and it feels like I'm going round in circles alright. Pushing on.

[graceabounds]

Let's just make sure we are on the same wavelength about how to look into each of these questions…

Say I were to ask you what color socks you have on today. You could think about it and perhaps reach for memory (another thought) or you could simply LOOK. LOOKing is the only accurate way. You will be 100% certain.

What color are your socks? :)

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in this distinction. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct Experience —the experience right here and right now.

Direct Experience is:
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Here's an exercise to practice:
Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time
Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience.

Describe what you noticed practicing this exercise.

So, if you were to LOOK for the separate self, in direct experience, right now, what do you find?

[graceabounds]

Oh, just remembered you asked about time zone.
Am in Eastern Time.

[Rodders]

Hi Becca,

Your last post was very helpful.

I’ve been going to the mind for answers and ending up in perpeptual mental loops. I see you were asking me to stay out of the mind and look directly. The sock analogy was a good one.

I did the exercise and yes it is now clear the difference between using mind and direct experience without mind. In direct experience a separate self cannot be found and therefore no separation either, this seems pretty obvious in a way. The separate self can only be found in imagination. The only way it can be done is by going to mind and labelling the body with and I, me or Mat etc. The separate self has to be created with the mind and asking where it is in reality is almost like a stupid question if we take reality to be the present moment and everything outside that being in the mind. Strange really, it is both subtle and obvious in a way but I think there isn’t real clarity around this yet. Still playing around with this. Will let you know how it goes.

There were more tears after this and I still did not manage to investigate properly.

TBC

Thanks a lot for that last pointer.

[graceabounds]

Great looking.

In direct experience a separate self cannot be found and therefore no separation either, this seems pretty obvious in a way. The separate self can only be found in imagination

Yes, exactly! Very simple.

Strange really, it is both subtle and obvious in a way but I think there isn’t real clarity around this yet.

Lets get some reps in with this:

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Strip away the labels and stories from each aspect of a daily activity, noticing simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought (the thought existing not its content).

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Send me a few lists formatted like the above from your adventure with this exercise and let me know how it goes and what you notice.