Before I run out of time....

[KateB]

1) Can you stay with the sensation of avoidance/anxiety without labeling it or pushing it away? What happens when you do?

There is a very heavy sense .... its hard to stay there without thoughts pinging about

[Elad]

1) Can you stay with the sensation of avoidance/anxiety without labeling it or pushing it away? What happens when you do?

There is a very heavy sense .... its hard to stay there without thoughts pinging about

Good you are attending to the direct experience of avoidance/anxiety. Thoughts will ping about, yes...

1) What is the heavy sense? How exactly does it feel, where is it felt?

Give more attention to the pure sensations and share back.

2) Can you see that you can neither get rid of the thoughts, nor hold on to them, so that in reality there is no other option but to let them do their thing, be as they are?

If needed, verify you neither can hold on to thoughts, nor get rid of them.

3) What happens experientially when you decide to not try and control or become better with thoughts and let them be exactly as they are?

4) What is experiencing both the heaviness and the passing thoughts? Is it heavy?

[KateB]

1) What is the heavy sense? How exactly does it feel, where is it felt?

Give more attention to the pure sensations and share back.

'pit of stomach'... tense... its got some 'energy' in it!. Like all sensations it doesnt last forever, but it is very good at precipitating chains of thought so it isnt really clear whether the sensation has 'gone away on its own' or is modified by thoughts. From the beginning, the sensation seems itself to be initiated something 'cognitive' - reading or hearing something and the thoughts pile in .... sensation too..

2) Can you see that you can neither get rid of the thoughts, nor hold on to them, so that in reality there is no other option but to let them do their thing, be as they are?

If needed, verify you neither can hold on to thoughts, nor get rid of them.

Agree. the sense of control that seems to kick in is spurious. the thoughts come and go anyway (eventually)

3) What happens experientially when you decide to not try and control or become better with thoughts and let them be exactly as they are?

I havent managed to 'try to control or become better using thoughts' tho will 'try' again. Feeling trapped in the thoughts is part of the tension!

4) What is experiencing both the heaviness and the passing thoughts? Is it heavy?

I cant say what is 'really' doing all this experiencing... its what thinks of itself as the self.... (Im guessing....sorry)

[Elad]

1. Right now, without thinking, without analyzing—can you find an actual ‘self’ that is experiencing, or only experiencing itself?

2. If there is no ‘someone’ controlling the thoughts or sensations, what exactly is trapped?

3. Without the thought ‘I should figure this out’—what is left, right now?

[KateB]

Sorry about the pause... grandchildren have just left.... Ive had a few frustrating days of trying to control the household ..and myself ... and failing and feeling bad .... A situation that I think/believe that not investing in a 'self' would improve...(I can hear you pulling me up on my contradictions and assumptions..)

1. Right now, without thinking, without analyzing—can you find an actual ‘self’ that is experiencing, or only experiencing itself?

Nothing 'actual' that is experiencing but experiencing is happening...

2. If there is no ‘someone’ controlling the thoughts or sensations, what exactly is trapped?

a sensation is happening and a thought is 'claiming' it and labelling it and being critical of a self that it is 'talking to'

3. Without the thought ‘I should figure this out’—what is left, right now?

don't know... I dont get away from these thoughts....

[Elad]

Hi Kate,

No need to rush this. Let’s just sit with what’s here.

You had a few frustrating days of trying to control the household... and yourself... and failing and feeling bad. Let’s just stay with that for a moment. Notice the assumption beneath it:

- There is someone who should have been in control.
- There is someone who failed.
- There is someone who now feels bad about it.
- But in your direct experience—where is this "someone"?

“Nothing 'actual' that is experiencing but experiencing is happening...”

Yes. Beautifully seen. So who, exactly, was supposed to be in control?

"A sensation is happening and a thought is 'claiming' it and labelling it and being critical of a self that it is 'talking to'."

Yes. A thought talking to *no one*. And yet, it still feels like something is trapped, right?

What if this “trapped” feeling isn’t proof of a self, but just a habitual loop—a belief that there is someone to blame for this moment being the way it is, someone failing, someone having the frustration and stuckness?

"Don't know... I don’t get away from these thoughts..."

You don’t need to. Thoughts appear. They do what they do.

But what is the “one” that needs to get away? How does that "one" appear or dissapear?

Look:

Is there any actual boundary where “you” end and thoughts begin?
Or is it just thoughts about a Kate appearing and disspearing (with what speed exactly?)?
Nothing needs to be different. Let yourself sit in this very frustration, this very feeling of being stuck, and look:

What is actually happening right now in direct experience?

Let yourself see it including all the thoughts and feelings you would rather not have. They do not need to change at all for clarity to be here of what is actually here.

[KateB]

No need to rush this. Let’s just sit with what’s here.

Assumptions... There is someone who should have been in control.
- There is someone who failed.
- There is someone who now feels bad about it.

What if this “trapped” feeling isn’t proof of a self, but just a habitual loop—a belief that there is someone to blame for this moment being the way it is, someone failing, someone having the frustration and stuckness?

Elad, thanks so much for your help with this...
My first reaction on reading your feedback was a bit of overwhelm at just how much distress/suffering (and not just to me..) must be precipitated by these loops of thought + sensation. A sort of "bloody hell, if Elad is right this is BIG!")

Of course in the unchallenging space Im currently in, I tried 'putting myself back' into the uncomfortable situation I described to you .... but I was in a different 'now', so accepting the story about loops came too easily. It seems I have to be in every 'now' - (who knew!!)

"Don't know... I don’t get away from these thoughts..."

You don’t need to. Thoughts appear. They do what they do.

So (as it were) the thoughts have an underlying assumption of a self they are 'talking to'? ... and they can be observed as such..?

Is there any actual boundary where “you” end and thoughts begin?

Generally, NO... "I" and "my thoughts" are absorbed in each other.... except sometimes..? Occasionally a 'thought'.. something coherent seems to 'arrive from outside'... these thoughts have a different quality, perhaps 'creative' or even 'insightful'..?

Let yourself see it including all the thoughts and feelings you would rather not have.

Im trying this today... news to follow

[Elad]

Kate, you're seeing something key—thoughts arise, but they don’t need a "someone" to belong to. Even the thoughts that feel like they come from outside—do they arrive to anyone, or do they just show up as part of the flow?

Is there actually a thinker apart from the thinking, or is there just thinking happening?

Let’s stay with this gently. No need to rush, just noticing.

[KateB]

Kate, you're seeing something key—thoughts arise, but they don’t need a "someone" to belong to. Even the thoughts that feel like they come from outside—do they arrive to anyone, or do they just show up as part of the flow?

Two things:: FIrstly I agree that thoughts don't need to belong to a 'me' but they are noticed in a particular way

ALSO Ive been noticing that these habitual loops of thoughts + feelings are very busy! I guess this is what you call 'selfing' - thoughts and a sense of self propping each other up. And I acknowledge that 'I'm in that loop quite a lot..

But not ALL the time. Im curious about the gaps... no 'selfing thoughts' .... actually no thoughts at all for a stretch of time before the selfing-thoughts resume.
In the gap Im not aware of thoughts, nor explicitly of a self (no label, no comments) but once the selfing thoughts come in again, they seem sneakily to fill in the gap as though the sense of self was there all the time, just 'under the radar'. Was it?

What can be done?????

[Elad]

Kate, you're seeing this beautifully. The selfing loop is being noticed as it happens, and now you're curious about the gaps.

1) Thoughts and sense of self intermingle yes. Now what is this sense of self? Is it not in reality just another reccuring thought + sensations? A thought that can change say with praise and blame, attack or support, in involuntary automatic ways? Notice that "in you" and "in others" as you go through the day.


2) Look carefully: In those moments where there are no thoughts, is there any “you” at all? Or just experience happening?

Now notice—when the selfing thoughts resume. Thought claims the gap retroactively, saying:

“Oh, I was there, just unnoticed.”
“That was me, just under the radar.”

But isn’t that just another thought, interpreting something already past? Can you find any actual evidence that a “you” was present in those gaps? Or is it only the later thought that assumes so?

3) As for your question: What can be done?

Nothing. Because nothing is missing. Seeing happens by itself in its own rythm, confusion and ignorance and resistance do to (see that during the day).

Selfing resumes not because a “you” was there waiting, but because habitual thought loops restart—just like a screen saver turning back on.

Instead of doing something, just watch this play out. See if there is ever any direct evidence of a continuous, stable self—or only thoughts that claim ownership after the fact.

[KateB]

Thanks for all this!

nstead of doing something, just watch this play out. See if there is ever any direct evidence of a continuous, stable self—or only thoughts that claim ownership after the fact.

Definitely no continuous stable self!

However... and sorry to be pedantic...
Is the best advice 1. 'Just look' for a real self OR 2. Recognise that 'self is only a thought...?

Until recently I reckon I have mainly been doing number 1 ... looking for a self in lots of different situations. The downside of the instruction is that somehow I 'know in advance' Im not going to find it. This is a sort of intellectual 'knowing' but its there, (the reasoning seems very watertight). I don't know how common it is for people, but when I'm squaring up to something quite challenging but possible (eg jumping into a cold sea!), once I have decided to do it, its as though its already done...and I somehow cheat myself of the actual experience when it happens. I sense a bit of that going on here. (probably not explaining well)

More recently (coming with the notion of selfing), I am watching for self only being a thought. This seems really helpful, but Im not sure how to 'investigate' whats going on in the gaps. There are times when Im clearly selfing and can almost watch how the thoughts are propping up 'self'. There are also times when there arent chains of thoughts, but still a bit of labelling (so presumably still in the realms of self-other). Finally there are sometimes 'wide awake' situations when processes are very free of thoughts, the body being on a sort of automatic pilot (my strongest example would be when I was working and doing skillful and quite complicated work with my hands ... I was a cardiac interventionalist...Im not sure how I can say it, but there wasnt a 'self' there at all...indeed probably no 'other' either. How do you 'look for a self' when you are in that situation... not possible..?

All these situations are familiar. I dont notice when I am 'losing selfing' only when it comes back, and sometimes catch that it is a selfing thought (love the metaphor of a screen-saver BTW).

[Elad]

Kate, you already see it. It’s all here, obvious, undeniable.

There is no continuous self—only fleeting thoughts that claim ownership *after the fact*. You see that. But there’s still this subtle sense that *something* is missing, something left to resolve. That’s the trick, isn’t it? The feeling that you’re close but not quite there.

Look at that feeling right now. Not the thoughts *about* it, but the raw sensation. Where is it? Is it tension? A subtle unease? A flicker of doubt?

Now, see if that feeling can be maintained *without thoughts maintaining and explaining it*. Can it?

You say you’re now “watching for self only being a thought.” That’s great, yes it is a valid ""doorway to insight" to look at that. But what is watching? Is there a watcher? Or just watching happening?

Check: When selfing happens, is there actually a separate self? Or just thoughts about self being believed? And when selfing drops, is there a separate *absence* of self? Or just experience, raw and full?

Like when you discover there is no Santa Claus, do you walk around experiencing the mystical state of NO-SANTA?

That moment at work doing surgery —hands moving, everything happening smoothly, no self to be found—did you need to *look* for no self there? No, because experience was just flowing. And "Self" only seemed to “return” when a thought popped up saying *that was a moment without self.*

That’s the confusion. The thought *about* no-self tries to claim ownership of seeing "no self", i.e. just normal life without the self thoughts being believed.

And that’s what’s playing out now. The subtle belief that you need to investigate what happens “in the gaps,” that you need to do something to fully land this. But what if the gaps don’t need investigation? What if they are just life, unfiltered?

Right now, let go of “looking for” anything. Just sit. Let everything be exactly as it is.

Is there anything missing? Or just the thought that something is missing?

[KateB]

Look at that feeling right now. Not the thoughts *about* it, but the raw sensation. Where is it? Is it tension? A subtle unease? A flicker of doubt?

Yes exactly... flickers ... tension

Now, see if that feeling can be maintained *without thoughts maintaining and explaining it*. Can it?

No ....hilarious...!


something's moving.... news to follow!

[KateB]

Check: When selfing happens, is there actually a separate self? Or just thoughts about self being believed? And when selfing drops, is there a separate *absence* of self? Or just experience, raw and full?

No gate!!!

sorry to be so monosyllabic, dont know what to say just now

except THANKS SO MUCH

[Elad]

🤍

Kate, yes—no gate! Nothing ever kept you out. And nothing has changed, except the illusion has been seen for what it is...

Writing me again soon, tell me how things are...