Thanks

[daytonabill]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is a category label, much like a university, referring to a collection of related things.

What are you looking for at LU?
I read the book by Ilona Cinuaite and Elena Nezhinsky where they chatted with ppl and helped them through the gate. So it would be cool if I could get similar help. I should be almost there, but feel I need a nudge or so.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm hoping to be guided through the gate. I should be almost there, actually, but I need a bit of advice. Thanks. I read the book and so should know what to expect. I'm hoping to be able to finally see (rather than just acknowledge intellectually) that I ain't really got no ass.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been reading books on Buddhism for about 7 years.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi daytonabill
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[daytonabill]

Thanks so much, Rali! :)

[daytonabill]

is that what you want me to call you?

Thanks Rali. You can call me “Bill”. 😊

What time zone are in?

US Eastern time zone. I live in Florida.

[poppyseed]

Hi Bill

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

US Eastern time zone. I live in Florida.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage


First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[daytonabill]

Thanks Rali,

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic

Seems I am. Thanks for the info.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I expect I'll be less concerned over what might happen to me. And I'll also be able to see reality much more clearly.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

See above.

3. What do you want not to happen?

Hopefully I'll not become too apathetic.

4. What are you hoping for?

My hopes certainly aren't high. Of course I've read about folks for whom it made a major life altering change, and who found it initially hilarious. 'Twould be nice, certainly, but I don't expect it to happen. As I said, to be able to see reality more clearly and to be less concerned about my worthless ass, those are the two things I'm really hoping for.

5. What is missing?

"Missing"? I suppose it could be a lot, depending on what you mean by that.

Again, thanks so much, Rali. :)

Bill

[poppyseed]

Hi Bill

Thank you for your honest reply! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Hopefully I'll not become too apathetic.

Things were fine until now without an I, why should they be different after the illusion is seen? An illusion is just that – an illusion. It cannot do anything, it just looks like something else :) Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.

You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work
Love
Rali

[daytonabill]

Is that OK with you?

Of course. Thank you.

Things were fine until now without an I, why should they be different after the illusion is seen? An illusion is just that – an illusion. It cannot do anything, it just looks like something else :) Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.

You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

Exactly. Some trepidation is still there, but it's silly.

If you look for the I, what is there?

Dennett calls the self a narrative center of gravity. Like the mass center of gravity, it greatly simplifies operations. You can't go mechanics without the mass center of gravity and you can't function in society without our self narrative center of gravity. But they're both entirely abstract. There's no self anywhere you look. I've also read it compared to a university, a collection of things, none of which is the university itself.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Indeed. There's a discontinuous neuronal stream, that's it. Experience and thought, but no experiencer or thinker. The decision maker part, though, I'm still working out. Thanks for bringing it up. What do you mean by witness?

Where exactly did you look?

Where do I need to look. Certainly I've given it a lot of thought. But thoughts are themselves insubstantial. You can think yourself into anything you like. What do you recommend?

What exactly did you find?

So far, I know on an intellectual level that what I call "I" doesn't exist. But I don't yet see it. I'm hoping you can help me here. Thanks.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

I'm not afraid of facing truth, I want it very much. There are often feelings of satisfaction when I realize on an intellectual level that "I" doesn't exist. Of course, I've thought a lot about it, and read a few books, which is how I met yunz. Thanks so much, Rali.

Bill

[poppyseed]

Hi Bill
I just want to remind you in case you missed this:

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

It would be nice if we can create a bit of momentum…

Exactly. Some trepidation is still there, but it's silly.

What we’ll see soon is that fear is just a sensation with a thought. Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes- the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...

Dennett calls the self a narrative center of gravity. Like the mass center of gravity, it greatly simplifies operations. You can't go mechanics without the mass center of gravity and you can't function in society without our self narrative center of gravity. But they're both entirely abstract. There's no self anywhere you look. I've also read it compared to a university, a collection of things, none of which is the university itself.

Here we see for ourselves and we don’t rely on other’s experiences and observations. That is why I asked you to leave spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Where do I need to look. Certainly I've given it a lot of thought. But thoughts are themselves insubstantial. You can think yourself into anything you like. What do you recommend?

Indeed! Thoughts are not where we look for answers…
Let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing, remembering or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

So there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is another example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[daytonabill]

Beautiful information, Rali. I'm quite lucky you chose to help me. Thank you so much. I'll need to spend much time going over what you just told me, but for now please elaborate on this:

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

I'd say no. An "apple" is just a label I'm giving to a collection of sensory experience. Something I'm making up. Is that right? Please elaborate a bit. Thanks again, Rali. I do feel quite lucky to be here with you.

[daytonabill]

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Our perceptions evolved to give us information about things in our environment. In this case, all five senses converge on the same object. To claim it isn't real is to deny the evidence of our senses.

[poppyseed]

Hey Bill

It’s my pleasure guiding you!

I'd say no. An "apple" is just a label I'm giving to a collection of sensory experience. Something I'm making up. Is that right? Please elaborate a bit. Thanks again, Rali. I do feel quite lucky to be here with you.

Our perceptions evolved to give us information about things in our environment. In this case, all five senses converge on the same object. To claim it isn't real is to deny the evidence of our senses.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste).
ALL you experience is colour, smell, taste, and sensation and you ASSUME that there are “things in our environment”, which exist inherently somewhere “outside” of us. What makes you 100 % sure in your assumption if you have to rely ONLY on the 5 senses? Where is the image of the object, is it inside or outside of you? If it is seen inside or outside, where is the border where the image crosses over from being outside to being inside of you? What does the border consist of? LOOK! Don't intellectulise or try to remember!

There are tasting (tastes), seeing (colours/shapes), feeling (sensations when eating and touching), smelling (smells) – no hearing an “apple”. If you notice I used verbs as these are happening in motion, there is a flux not a frozen picture. Then thought appears and describes that you are seeing an “apple”, tasting an “apple” etc. Just because these particular seeing, tasting,… have appeared together in the past they are grouped together as an “apple” experience. What makes then “object apple” inherently existing? Or that is an assumption? If a friend eats an “apple” and talks about it, is he talking about an object or experiencing (seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling)?
He can describe how sweet it tastes, how fragrant it is, how crunchy the flesh feels, how can you know what he is talking about if you haven’t tasted that apple? The description of experience is no help when it comes to experiencing. We can talk about tasting the apple, but it’s all conceptual: ideas about ideas and not the experience that is happening right now. Ideas are good for directing attention, like this: The next time you eat an apple, remember to experience the taste fully, as if you are tasting the apple for the first time. Dive into the experience, noticing all and forgetting all you know about the apple. Savour every bite of it. See the difference between talking about the taste of the apple and tasting it. So do this and let me know what you find
Furthermore, I recently tried a new fruit for me which the locals call “sour soap”. If I give you a description – the fruit is fragrant, sweet and sour, fleshy, and soft – did you manage to experience and get an idea what the fruit tastes like?

Love
Rali

[daytonabill]

ALL you experience is colour, smell, taste, and sensation and you ASSUME that there are “things in our environment”, which exist inherently somewhere “outside” of us.

Please suggest an alternate reason for perceptions.

What makes you 100 % sure in your assumption if you have to rely ONLY on the 5 senses?

I'm not at all sure. And I'd like very much to understand what you mean.

Where is the image of the object, is it inside or outside of you?

It arises from neuronal circuitry. That's undeniable. Its location, otoh, is not at all apparent.

If it is seen inside or outside, where is the border where the image crosses over from being outside to being inside of you? What does the border consist of?

There's no perceivable border. I suggest there isn't any.

What makes then “object apple” inherently existing? Or that is an assumption? If a friend eats an “apple” and talks about it, is he talking about an object or experiencing (seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling)? If I give you a description – the fruit is fragrant, sweet and sour, fleshy, and soft – did you manage to experience and get an idea what the fruit tastes like?

Exactly. Description hardly suffices. There's absolutely no way for reality to be represented in words, ya gotta taste it yourself.

[daytonabill]

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Otherwise we life in a fantasy world, as I'd done all of my life.

No, what I've always called "I" simply can't be found. It's one of the many ways I've always had the wool pulled over my eyes. But it's persistent. How can I pound the truth more deeply into my head?

[daytonabill]

If you notice I used verbs as these are happening in motion, there is a flux not a frozen picture.

Do you see flux in everything.

Thanks Rali