A Quest for Shedding Relentless Doubt

[Woodlands]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding of this seems to fluctuate. Currently, I see there being no self to relate to the idea that the self is conceptual only - a framework for seeing created by words which has no inherent reality. When words are let go of, the conceptual self disappears. But it is felt this understanding is fragile and limited.

What are you looking for at LU?
This is difficult and I can’t help but wonder if I contravene the rules as it mentions something along the lines of not being the place for improving your life or solving your problems. But if I am truly, deeply honest, this is really what I desperately seek. I see seeing through the illusion of self (which I am ultimately here for) as a way of finally letting go of the problem stories which seem to holding me back from truly ‘living’. Really, I am looking to let go of the frequent oscillation of doubt my mind seems to get stuck in. I realise this may be a seeking of certainty, for knowing. I want to ‘know’ what to do. But is a shedding of doubt the same as having a sense of knowing or certainty? Am I looking for a space in between?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Honestly, I worry I am beyond help with this which I realise may be a stupid thing to say. I expect to be asked questions that my mind might find hard and may have some kind of freak out to whereby thoughts seem to tie me up in knots. I wonder if I have picked up a belief that there is an emotional/spiritual/energetic aspect which is holding me back. There already seems to have been lots of kick backs where this application has been started then not continued. My mind plaguing me with stories as to how I should be doing something else and how this is another form of avoidance of the responsibilities I should be taking on in life. The guilt story has really ramped up today. I wonder as I get closer, if the mind might push back and find ways to avoid this confrontation. I hope and aim to relentlessly keep coming back, regardless of how uncomfortable it might feel.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditation started around 5 years ago and I had my first real ‘questioning of the self’ experience around 3 years ago when I read Joan Tollifson’s Painting the Sidewalk with Water. Alongside, I studied postmodernism and narrative therapy (a postmodernist approach) and my belief system was blown wide open as I wrote my thesis. Yet, I found my attempts to hold on to this understanding reinforced the belief of an autonomous self and so I aborted. It seemed I had a fear-driven response/approach to practice where I began to avoid anything I thought might reinforce a self.

Since, I have not had a systematic practice other than seeking to notice thoughts as thoughts, feelings as sensation plus thought, as well as trying to move into feelings as part of my everyday life. I try to not place a boundary between everyday life and meditation. Formal meditation sometimes happens but not often (maybe not as often as would have been helpful). I have explored many authors and often listen to audiobooks or read (I generally am in the middle of numerous books). I found some of Eckhart Tolle’s reading useful in the beginning, though noticed myself picking up new beliefs and concepts which I realised were becoming unhelpful at times. Jeff Foster has been helpful at times, as has Rupert Spira. I particularly like how Spira can help minimise what can seem to be a vilifying of thought (something I notice can easily happen in my own experience).

Whilst sometimes reading and listening to these authors helps, at times I notice a seeking energy creep up where suddenly I am reading with an expectation and hope to be different. To get somewhere. My quest to see through the illusion seems to reinforce the illusion and to boost its power. Which can lead me to abort.

I’ve more recently been reading/practicing Ruper Spira’s tantric yoga of sensation and perception which I am finding having an impact at another level which is helpful (energetic/somatic/spiritual?). It seems spending time with awareness exploring sensation and breaking conceptual boundaries in this way has been helpful. Though giving this time and attention can be difficult and the mind certainly resists.

My latest book (before Liberation Unleashed which I am part way through) was by Angello Dilullo which I loved and found myself ‘almost there’ with a technique given. It was helpful to be told clearly that ‘I wasn’t there’. However, this then seems to become the block from seeing I was always already there. I find there to be a confusing paradox with all of this where working out ‘what to do’ feels an impossible task. As I was using this technique, I spoke with someone who kindly offers me guidance sometimes but found the technique was questioned (whilst they fully admitted this may or may not be helpful to me and was offered with very clear caveats to only take that which is useful). This questioning seemed to send my mind spiralling into doubt. I was unable to unhear or not take this questioning as a push back into doubt. Confusion arose with what is conceptual and what is not.

I am at the point where I think I need another person to help me get beyond where I seem to get continuously stuck. It’s like I’m of a raft that keeps getting pulled back up stream. When I look to memory, it can seem I was far ‘closer’ to breaking this illusion 3 years ago. I desperately want to have the click so many describe. Whilst I feel I have had moments of this ‘aha’ in the past, this does not stay as it appears to do for others. Returning to a previous question, I hope this guided conversation can enable this to finally happen.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hi, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU. What should I call you?

What do you doubt? Do you doubt if you're doing things right? Are you worried you'll never get what you're looking for? Shedding of doubt is not the same as having certainty. Anything you're certain of can surely be doubted. Shedding of doubt is dropping the whole game of thought. What are you trying to figure out and why? How much of your discomfort and suffering have you actually felt, instead of going straight back into thought and doubt trying to solve your problems?

When the thoughts start racing and you feel discomfort then the thoughts continue propagating causing more discomfort, do you always go into problem-solving/doubt mode?
"Oh no, I have to do xyz by this time so that abc doesn't happen"... this thought creates an uncomfortable sensation, likely near your sternum. You resist this sensation and try to solve the thought-problem with more thought, "Ah, but even if xyz, it's ok because abc"... "No, but that can't be, I still have to do xyz or I'm fucked etc."... and it goes back and forth, back and forth. Every new back and forth makes the sensation more uncomfortable, making you more anxious about solving this thought-problem, making you try harder and think more, making the sensation more uncomfortable. Stop and notice that you're not running away from any thought-problem, you're running away from the feeling the thought-problem is causing. Stop trying to fix the thought-problem with more thought and go to the sensation. "Oh, I can feel this sensation but I still have to solve this problem...", this is more thought. This thought creates more sensation that pushes you to distract yourself with more futile problem-solving thoughts. Stay with the sensation. That's the only thing you're running away from.

I have a "practice" for you: gaze at the sky. There's no objective, there's nothing for you to do or obtain or achieve. There's no need to remain mindful or focused. Just gaze at the sky. There is no effort in gazing at the sky. The sight of the sky is already always there, whether you try to notice it or not. You may notice yourself "trying", but there's no need to try.

"What will I get out of this?" "Is there a way for me to gaze at the sky better? More effectively?" This is trying. There's no need to try. There's no need for effectiveness. There's no need for productivity. There's no need for benefit. There's no end goal. If you're gazing at the sky, that's all.

[Woodlands]

Hi Tyler, I’m Jade. Thank you so much for your help with this.

These are good questions. Ultimately, there seems to be relentless doubt as to ‘what to do’. Yes, in a sense it always comes down to doing the ‘right’ thing. But at an intellectual level, I know there is no ‘right way’. But it seems I have possibly developed a belief that there is a spiritually ‘right’ way - a way that feels right and is without doubt. Where I can just flow in a way that feels natural. This is what I’m looking for - and yes, it seems reasonable to say I am worried I’ll never get this.

There are times when the trying to figure out has been bigger picture stuff, like job etc. but I’ve managed to let this go to a degree as I look to keep returning to sensation. I guess the main storyline of the figuring things out relates to the want above - the ‘working out how can I flow naturally’ story.

How much of your discomfort and suffering have you actually felt, instead of going straight back into thought and doubt trying to solve your problems?

I think I have felt a lot of the discomfort and suffering but I also know attention is pulled straight back into thought - it seems to do this is slippery and gentle ways that make it difficult to notice.

I think I have become somewhat confident in recognising that thought will not solve any of this. But attention is relentlessly pulled back into thought. Whilst the example experiences you describe happened a lot in the earlier part of this journey, now instead of responding with more layers of thought that seek to solve, I try to refocus attention back into sensation. I’d say I’ve been doing this for some time, perhaps with the expectation that sensing into what is here and letting go of thought might enable a knowing of what to do next to happen.

Sometimes the tension eases and things move. Other times the tension (and what I’d maybe call a resistance energy pattern that can seem to come over my body) seems to be more persistent. What is tricky is when this is in situations where these is a time-pressure element. A story arises along the lines of… sitting with the sensation and giving time and space to really trying to feel how this is moving moment to moment is possibly just another form of Jade avoiding something she should be doing. This is where it seems to fold in on itself and get very sticky.

I’ve had the experience of realising there’s an unhelpful element of seeing myself as ‘feeling sensation’ as doing something. This seems to be adding in some way. There’s a trying which can just add more resistance or a sense of seeking. If I can remember to do this - more of a sensing into what is already here, a letting go, a not doing anything at all - this is really helpful and I guess there is a ‘knowing’ that this is the ‘right direction’. However, this can seem really hard at times where attention is being pulled over and over again and the body is fraught with tension. Or maybe the thought comes up ‘this isn’t it’? Maybe these experiences are just different and don’t ‘feel right’ and that is a part of it all too? I’m not sure.

Thank you. I think you’re right in that I’m running away from sensation. Yet I am desperately trying to face and feel it fully and do see this as my main moment-to-moment practice. I feel I know this confidently at an intellectual level yet realise this must not be happening in the way it is needed (or is far slower-burning that I anticipated it would be…) and wondering what I can do differently. (Is this my employing of thought to try and solve this problem..?! Maybe I am using thought a lot more than is realised…).

There have been times which have felt significantly different at a qualitative level which makes me wonder if it’s possible this sensing needs to be done in a particular way? One which addresses identification at a level which is perhaps less visible? For example, the question ‘what does it feel like to be identified with this thought?’ Or imagining the ‘me’ that I really feel I am in a moment - these can seem to make visible (at the level of sensation) what was seemingly hidden before this. This then seems to loosen up the identification and there is a felt shift. Is there something in this type of experience? Does this mean anything to you?

YES! This no effort and nothing to gain practice you describe is exactly the practice (or non-practice) I mentioned earlier when thinking about feeling sensation. This really resonates. I will look to do this, as well as adopting this same approach to the feeling of being here now. Nothing to obtain or achieve. Just being here.

I thank you deeply for your time.

Jade

P.S. I have intentionally not looked to other threads as I try to connect with what feels to come most intuitively to me in terms of responding as I know how easily I can implicitly pick up on other people’s ways of doing things… Please let me know if I should reply in a different kind of way e.g. re-posting your questions with my responses - or if that (or something else) would be better for you.

[ty0]

Heya Jade

I’ve had the experience of realising there’s an unhelpful element of seeing myself as ‘feeling sensation’ as doing something. This seems to be adding in some way. There’s a trying which can just add more resistance or a sense of seeking. If I can remember to do this - more of a sensing into what is already here, a letting go, a not doing anything at all - this is really helpful and I guess there is a ‘knowing’ that this is the ‘right direction’. However, this can seem really hard at times where attention is being pulled over and over again and the body is fraught with tension. Or maybe the thought comes up ‘this isn’t it’? Maybe these experiences are just different and don’t ‘feel right’ and that is a part of it all too? I’m not sure.

Thank you. I think you’re right in that I’m running away from sensation. Yet I am desperately trying to face and feel it fully and do see this as my main moment-to-moment practice. I feel I know this confidently at an intellectual level yet realise this must not be happening in the way it is needed (or is far slower-burning that I anticipated it would be…) and wondering what I can do differently. (Is this my employing of thought to try and solve this problem..?! Maybe I am using thought a lot more than is realised…).

Yes, feeling sensation is not a doing. It's just writing it out in language that makes it seem so. You can't feel sensation, sensation already is. You are using a lot more thought than you realise, on the effort of "feeling what's here" and "not being sucked back into thought". By trying to not get sucked back into thought, you're already in thought.

There have been times which have felt significantly different at a qualitative level which makes me wonder if it’s possible this sensing needs to be done in a particular way? One which addresses identification at a level which is perhaps less visible? For example, the question ‘what does it feel like to be identified with this thought?’ Or imagining the ‘me’ that I really feel I am in a moment - these can seem to make visible (at the level of sensation) what was seemingly hidden before this. This then seems to loosen up the identification and there is a felt shift. Is there something in this type of experience? Does this mean anything to you?

Sure. Inquiry is a popular technique. Questions like "Where am I?" and "What's not a thought?" can pull attention into the senses. Use them if you find them helpful.

P.S. I have intentionally not looked to other threads as I try to connect with what feels to come most intuitively to me in terms of responding as I know how easily I can implicitly pick up on other people’s ways of doing things… Please let me know if I should reply in a different kind of way e.g. re-posting your questions with my responses - or if that (or something else) would be better for you.

Reply however you like

Have you tried sky-gazing? Also, what are your thoughts on awareness and consciousness?

[Woodlands]

Just a quick one to say I will post tomorrow. Busy few days and want to give time to seeing what comes up to this question. Thanks Tyler. Will write soon.

[Woodlands]

Hi Tyler,

So sorry for my delay...

I have tried the sky gazing. The sky here is usually so incredibly beautiful and interesting. I have found myself in awe of the clouds everyday for the last couple of months. Yet, the moment this task arose, the sky became the most boring I have seen it in a long time. It felt like the universe trying to teach me something… Attention just couldn’t settle there. No colours or movement to distinguish. Just one colour, all appearing the same. Thoughts would quickly come. Is this a similar experience to what happens when attention tries to settle on sensing as it is? There was a felt sense of my not doing it right (or vague/light thoughts - I can find it difficult to distinguish clearly between experiencing a sense of something in terms of meaning and it becoming a perceivable thought - there seems to be some kind of fading in from one to the other with no clear boundary?). But then a recognition (with doubt) that this, as it was, was enough - even if it was looking through the trees and wasn’t a clear appreciation of its beauty - nor some kind of relaxed, open or spacious experience of some kind. Both times I let myself fall asleep.

This is too big a question for me to put into words… but I’ve had a go…

I think awareness and consciousness are words that are supposed to point to the essence of what really is. I’ve had a couple of experiences of feeling I really see and feel this, but it hasn’t been often. I guess you could say this is how I see the ‘goal’ of the pathless path - to see that everything is made up of awareness/consciousness. Though I do not see or feel this clearly. I am, however feeling less of a ‘solid’ person and have a felt sense that experientially could be seen to merge with that which is seemingly around me - like the perceived boundaries of my body are becoming more ‘blurred’ (seems to be coinciding with experiences of tantric yoga increasing). I currently think muscle tension might be what makes this solid feeling become more solid?

On an intellectual level, I see how this makes everything one (well, not even one as there is no end/edge and therefore no ‘not one’ - if that makes sense). I think the word ‘energy’ could fit the bill for what these words point to in my mind - everything as energy - all connected and flowing. Words drawing boundaries between this flowing energy which seek to or seem to fix it into place and divide it up.

There seems to be some kind of contradiction between the infinite nature of the universe (what could possibly be beyond an edge?) and our use of words which necessarily create a 'not that word' - the boundless and the boundaried?

It feels like there’s something about identifying with infinite awareness, though I realise this is maybe more of a letting go of identification with anything, which then frees you up to be (or realise yourself as?) everything and no-thing. There feels to be a tiny thread of understanding and then just lots of doubt and confusion. Those moments where it made sense were insanely mind-blowing, awe-striking moments where all doubt evaporated and everything (and I mean just everything) made complete sense. I think it is these experiences and the felt sense of ‘knowing’ within them that keeps me going and to not take the ‘surely this is all just crazy talk’ thoughts seriously.

My mind is finding this all very hard to think about… I think there’s resistance in exploring this territory…

[Woodlands]

Though I realise I may have got that the wrong way around as the question has come up, ‘what is it that would be identifying, or not identifying?’

And I’m not sure…

[ty0]

It sounds to me like you've picked up a lot of spiritual knowledge and are trying to reconcile this with experience. Direct experience is the 5 senses and thought. It's important to recognise the difference between direct experience (DE) and the content of thought. For example, is it verifiable through DE that:
a) You had xyz for lunch yesterday
OR
b) There is a memory (thought) that says you had xyz for lunch yesterday

I guess you could say this is how I see the ‘goal’ of the pathless path - to see that everything is made up of awareness/consciousness.

Is this not just something you've read about? What even is awareness? Is it a real thing? What is it in your experience? "That everything is made up of xyz" or "that everything is NOT made up of xyz" are only thoughts.

like the perceived boundaries of my body are becoming more ‘blurred’

And what is your body? Is your body something you directly experience, or is it the content of thought?

There seems to be some kind of contradiction between the infinite nature of the universe (what could possibly be beyond an edge?) and our use of words which necessarily create a 'not that word' - the boundless and the boundaried?

Is there such a thing as a universe? Do you experience a universe?

everything as energy - all connected and flowing. Words drawing boundaries between this flowing energy which seek to or seem to fix it into place and divide it up.

What about energy? Do you experience energy?

It feels like there’s something about identifying with infinite awareness, though I realise this is maybe more of a letting go of identification with anything, which then frees you up to be (or realise yourself as?) everything and no-thing. There feels to be a tiny thread of understanding and then just lots of doubt and confusion. Those moments where it made sense were insanely mind-blowing, awe-striking moments where all doubt evaporated and everything (and I mean just everything) made complete sense. I think it is these experiences and the felt sense of ‘knowing’ within them that keeps me going and to not take the ‘surely this is all just crazy talk’ thoughts seriously.

My mind is finding this all very hard to think about… I think there’s resistance in exploring this territory…

It's very hard to think about all this because you keep finding contradicting bits of information. All this spiritual information that you've picked up and believe is just that, information. The same as financial information, scientific information, religious information, etc.. You won't make sense of this with thoughts because thoughts are a closed-loop. Thoughts define other thoughts, even "truth" is a thought. Even doubt and confusion are only experience-able because of the belief in the distinction between true/false and right/wrong.

I invite you to leave thought behind and pay attention to DE. Maybe you can try with the sky again. Although what you're looking at is not really "the sky" and "the clouds", those are only labels. Look until you see.

[Woodlands]

Hi Tyler,

I'm not sure if much of this is rhetorical but I've jotted down what came up in case it is of any use (though as thoughts maybe not - maybe attention can rest on the tapping of the keys instead...)

I think I see what you're saying about direct experience - this is where I've sought to place all of my focus, returning again and again to what is here now. I will keep on at this. The energy patterns do seem to be getting less intense that's for sure. Especially if I manage to 'stay' when what feels to be a strong resistance or seeking pattern showing up. It's this 'staying' that I think I have been having trouble with. But I have noticed this as another thought and returned again.


Thoughts that came up to your reply...

I see awareness conceptually to mean that which I can be aware of (that can be known) - which appears to be felt and extend beyond what is felt to what can be seen and then even beyond this to what can be imagined. But to directly feel into awareness (I know I am using words here that take away from the directness of what I am trying to say), it is just this, here, now, sensing, seeing, hearing, breathing. The experience of this directly does feel in some way limited to what can be seen/felt/heard etc. but then conceptually, I can make a link to what people say about it.

In terms of 'my body'... It feels as though I directly experience ‘something’ where my body is, like a fuzziness, a tingling, a pulling in places etc. But it does still feel to me that there is a body where a boundary is drawn - even if the boundary isn’t solid and is maybe permeable with no clear boundary. There still seems to be a felt sense of this being ’me’ and outside my body being ‘not me’. Even though when I directly experience it is more of a fuzzy sensing without a clear shape. If that makes any sense.

I guess the word universe could be swapped with awareness - the universe as in ‘this’ ‘what is’ ‘this happening now’. ‘This’ is what I experience. (I think!?) Again for energy, just another word for the same thing - energy, awareness, universe, this…



Letting go of the thoughts now to return to direct experience, again and again...

[ty0]

I think I see what you're saying about direct experience - this is where I've sought to place all of my focus, returning again and again to what is here now. I will keep on at this. The energy patterns do seem to be getting less intense that's for sure. Especially if I manage to 'stay' when what feels to be a strong resistance or seeking pattern showing up. It's this 'staying' that I think I have been having trouble with. But I have noticed this as another thought and returned again.

Notice that the effort to focus on DE is itself a thought, and a very intense one.

I guess the word universe could be swapped with awareness - the universe as in ‘this’ ‘what is’ ‘this happening now’. ‘This’ is what I experience. (I think!?) Again for energy, just another word for the same thing - energy, awareness, universe, this…

So when you say these words, you're just referring to experience? Question, is there anything apart from what you experience?

In terms of 'my body'... It feels as though I directly experience ‘something’ where my body is, like a fuzziness, a tingling, a pulling in places etc. But it does still feel to me that there is a body where a boundary is drawn - even if the boundary isn’t solid and is maybe permeable with no clear boundary. There still seems to be a felt sense of this being ’me’ and outside my body being ‘not me’. Even though when I directly experience it is more of a fuzzy sensing without a clear shape. If that makes any sense.

Sure. What is outside of your body then? And is whatever you deem outside your body not being experienced the same way what you deem your body is being experienced? Regardless of where the boundary is drawn, isn't the boundary, and everything on either side of the boundary part of the same experience... or in your words, 'this'?

[Woodlands]

No, there isn’t anything apart?

And yes, either side is part of the same experience - ‘this’.

The apparent charge of the effort and thoughts seems to be subsiding a little…

[ty0]

So then what is there to seek?

[Woodlands]

There just seems to be a ‘seeking energy’ that comes up, it’s as though it signals a need for some movement towards something. There’s just been an attempt to notice and feel this directly as it is, and not get caught in the thoughts it seems to fire up.

I think I’m getting better at not getting too caught up in the patterns and stories that arise from these.

As in, I think I’m not quite buying into the idea of there being anything to seek, anywhere to get, anything to become. Though my body might still feel it, I’m seeing it more as an energetic pattern than something with real meaning and substance. If that makes any sense…

There is a greater sense of peace that seems to be beneath it all.

I think more direct experiencing and relentless letting go of thought is what is helping things move and things may get clearer..?

[ty0]

Sure. Is the "seeking energy" a sensation?

[Woodlands]

Yes. At least that seems to be one way of experiencing it.

The main issue that seems to happen is thought happening with less awareness, less visibility, like them subtly slipping by and adding a conceptual layer to experiencing.

It seems remembering is important, as well as a kind of faith that in the moment it might not ‘do’ anything, but that just being with direct sensation will ultimately lead to the freedom being sought.

Though here another form of seeking arises… it’s more like a remembering there is nothing to seek and being here with what is is enough, even if it doesn’t feel like it. A faith in this I guess?