Identified with an I

[WhoIBee]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I seem to conceptually understand that there is not a 'self' but I have not had any experience to validate that. So I don't really know what that means. It appears that I exist, in this body but I can believe that I am not this body. But what I am in reality is not at all clear from any experiential insight.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would consider that I have been a seeker my entire life. As a child I never felt like I fit into this world with people being unkind and myself being sensitive. It was traumatizing and made me anxious and fearful of all of life. I learned about the potential for "awakening" in early 2022 and have read books, meditated, tried self-inquiry but have not felt any sense of a shift in identity. My anxiety has seemed to increase dramatically with fears and emotions coming up randomly. A few life events since 2022 have also seemed to open the flood gates to bringing back up issues I have gone over numerous times in therapy. I'm looking to see if an LU guide can provide more direct pointing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I do think that I am both seeking to know my 'true' identity - if there is one I guess. But, ultimately I am hoping that this suffering due to believing my thoughts and sense of self will shift. I don't think I expect utopia if I have a shift in identity but I don't know how to NOT resist the uncomfortable feelings when they arise or follow/believe thoughts. I make them a problem and I don't know how to NOT make them a problem because it feels crappy to feel like I am both afraid to live and afraid to die. Honestly, I don't know WHAT to expect from a guided conversation. I don't know if I am "guided" to reach out or if it's just this sense of self that thinks it wants off the hamster wheel and hoping someone can help.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been doing 1 hour of silent meditation every morning for a year with occasional more sit times during the day or eve. I try and practice some self-inquiry. I have done a one online silent "awakening" retreat and am planning to do another in a couple of weeks. I participate weekly with a few online groups focused on "awakening".

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[ty0]

Heya, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU. What should I call you?

It appears that I exist, in this body but I can believe that I am not this body. But what I am in reality is not at all clear from any experiential insight.

If it appears that you exist, what do you feel you are? What does the word "I" refer to in your experience?

I don't think I expect utopia if I have a shift in identity but I don't know how to NOT resist the uncomfortable feelings when they arise or follow/believe thoughts. I make them a problem and I don't know how to NOT make them a problem because it feels crappy to feel like I am both afraid to live and afraid to die.

If you can't feel into discomfort and find yourself resisting, can you feel into the resistance of the discomfort? How uncomfortable is that resistance? Feel that.

I have been doing 1 hour of silent meditation every morning for a year with occasional more sit times during the day or eve. I try and practice some self-inquiry.

What happens during your meditation sessions? What do you do during this meditation?

If you notice your mind racing, ask yourself what you're trying to figure out, and why? If you're anxiously racking your brains about what to do, what are you doing that for? What do you do anything for? Why are you trying to get awakening?
What's the point of it all?

[WhoIBee]

Hi Tyler,

Thank you for being my guide. My name is Michelle. I will answer your questions.

If it appears that you exist, what do you feel you are? I can't say I can feel "what" I am but something seems to experience thoughts, emotions, body sensations, and the senses (seeing, hearing...).

What does the word "I" refer to in your experience? This is a confusing question. All that is experienced seems to be experienced by an "I". I have tried "looking" for the "I", which I'm not sure if I am doing that correctly but I do find that only thoughts can describe that. It isn't a sensation or emotion. Maybe I could say it feels like a sense of something existing that experiences and filters life through it and expresses, responds and reacts based on the it's thoughts and conditioning.

If you can't feel into discomfort and find yourself resisting, can you feel into the resistance of the discomfort? Yes, I try my best at doing this.

How uncomfortable is that resistance? Feel that. Yes, it is definitely MORE uncomfortable to resist than to just feel whatever it is. A fear thought/belief seems to comes up with some really intense emotions that I won't be able to handle it and that it will consume me to where I will go crazy or will want to commit suicide. It seems I live in a mental state of anticipatory anxiety of what might happen in life that would cause me to just collapse into the abyss of darkness and never come out. So my mind tries to protect me with thoughts. I recognize this doesn't work and yet it seems to just happen automatically.

What happens during your meditation sessions? Nothing happens during meditation sessions. I just enjoy being in an online community of others who are taking time to just sit in quiet space together.

What do you do during this meditation? Sometimes I just use the time to notice thoughts or be aware of what I am sensing in the environment. Or today, I am typing out these questions to you and consider that a form of meditation. It all feels like intentional practice to notice and feel and sometimes ask for help from God or something that might exist that can help me with the struggle I have with life itself.

If you notice your mind racing, ask yourself what you're trying to figure out, and why? I think how I responded above answers this question too. Mind racing is usually fear thoughts about the future and then trying to calm those thoughts or recognize they are just thoughts. I'm always trying to feel "safe" and that I can handle whatever may arise but I must not trust that because nothing I seem to do ever seems to ease that underlying contraction.

If you're anxiously racking your brains about what to do, what are you doing that for? It feels like a compulsion, a conditioning of the mind trying to keep me safe. It just seems to happen.

What do you do anything for? Honestly - sorry for my language but boy sometimes I have no fucking idea! I actually have such a beautiful life with nothing outwardly to be anxious about. I get extremely frustrated with myself that I seem incapable of being able to appreciate what a lovely life this is and how much beauty there is to see because these thoughts grab on and I believe them. It seems like such a waste of energy.

Why are you trying to get awakening? Because I hope it could help me appreciate the fullness of life so that I can live it without feeling like I am in a cage that I built that I don't know how to escape from. I also feel that it is helpful for all beings the more people who awaken. It serves everyone and everything. I don't know if these things are true but that is why I try.

What's the point of it all? I don't know the point. If there is a God, that is a question that I have right now but I'd prefer to just not even have the question. I'd prefer to not care what the point is and just BE.

Thank you for your questions Tyler and again, thank you for being my guide.

[ty0]

Hey Michelle, here's a link to a video on how to use the quote function so it's easier to read your posts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSv ... shedVideos

I can't say I can feel "what" I am but something seems to experience thoughts, emotions, body sensations, and the senses (seeing, hearing...).

How is it so that something seems to experience thoughts, emotions, etc.? What are you looking at to deduce that? To know whether there is a certain sound, you look at whether or not you hear that sound to make your conclusion. Is there sight? Of course there's sight, because there is sight. There's so much sight going on it's utterly obvious that there is sight. This is where you'll be investigating, in direct experience. Only believe something if you can verify it firsthand, without outsourcing to thoughts/logic.

You don't even have to say "there is sight", this is just a thought. It's important to distinguish between direct experience and the content of thoughts. You directly experience sight, so whether or not there is a thought that says "there is sight" or "there isn't sight" is irrelevant, they're only thoughts. Regardless, experience is.

Now, do you directly experience something that seems to experience thoughts, emotions, etc... or do you only experience a thought that says there seems to be something that experiences thoughts, emotions, etc.?

Maybe I could say it feels like a sense of something existing that experiences and filters life through it and expresses, responds and reacts based on the it's thoughts and conditioning.

Does this thing think or does it experience thoughts? Does this thing respond or does it experience a response? Do you make decisions or do decisions arise? Do you choose the thoughts leading up to the decision? Do you choose anything?

Yes, it is definitely MORE uncomfortable to resist than to just feel whatever it is.

When the thoughts start racing and you feel discomfort then the thoughts continue propagating causing more discomfort, ask yourself what's actually happening. Is the content of the thoughts what's happening, or are the thoughts and sensations caused by the thoughts what's happening?

"Oh no, I have to do xyz by this time so that abc doesn't happen"... this thought creates an uncomfortable sensation, likely near your sternum. You resist this sensation and try to solve the thought-problem with more thought, "Ah, but even if xyz, it's ok because abc"... "No, but that can't be, I still have to do xyz or I'm fucked etc."... and it goes back and forth, back and forth. Every new back and forth makes the sensation more uncomfortable, making you more anxious about solving this thought-problem, making you try harder and think more, making the sensation more uncomfortable. Stop and notice that you're not running away from any thought-problem, you're running away from the feeling the thought-problem is causing. Stop trying to fix the thought-problem with more thought and go to the sensation. "Oh, I can feel this sensation but I still have to solve this problem...", this is more thought. This thought creates more sensation that pushes you to distract yourself with more futile problem-solving thoughts. Stay with the sensation. That's the only thing you're running away from.

I don't know the point. If there is a God, that is a question that I have right now but I'd prefer to just not even have the question. I'd prefer to not care what the point is and just BE.

What there is, rather than God, is the question of whether or not there is a God. And if you decide there is, what there will be is not God, but rather the thought that there is a God. If you decide there isn't, it is not so that there will not be a God, there will just be a thought that there isn't a God.

This is the distinction between direct experience and the content of thought. There is a thought, but what the thought talks about is not a fact of experience, the thought itself is experience.

Nothing happens during meditation sessions.

Sometimes I just use the time to notice thoughts or be aware of what I am sensing in the environment.

Well, these contradict. What happens during your meditation sessions is thoughts and sensations, and the thought of trying to notice them. The thoughts of efforting and intentional practising.

Can I suggest you stop intentionally practising when you meditate? Meditation is the time for you to have a rest from the constant struggling you do, yet you continue to struggle during meditation. For your next few meditation sessions, try gazing at the sky. There's no objective, there's nothing for you to do or obtain or achieve. There's no need to remain mindful or focused. Just gaze at the sky. There is no effort in gazing at the sky. The sight of the sky is already always there, whether you try to notice it or not. You may notice yourself "trying", but there's no need to try.

"What will I get out of this?" "Is there a way for me to gaze at the sky better? More effectively?" This is trying. There's no need to try. There's no need for effectiveness. There's no need for productivity. There's no need for benefit. There's no end goal. If you're gazing at the sky, that's all.

[WhoIBee]

Hi Tyler,

Thank you for your reply and your additional questions. So here I go...

How is it so that something seems to experience thoughts, emotions, etc.? What are you looking at to deduce that?Now, do you directly experience something that seems to experience thoughts, emotions, etc... or do you only experience a thought that says there seems to be something that experiences thoughts, emotions, etc.?

What I mean is that there is something that is having the experience of thoughts and emotions and that appears to be an "I". Nobody else seems to be experiencing the thoughts that arise in my head or the emotions that come into my awareness. What I am looking at is what does feel to be my direct experience. The same as what "I" see, taste, smell, hear... All of these experiences are not happening outside of this physical body. I hope this is answering the question coming from my direct experience.

Does this thing think or does it experience thoughts? Does this thing respond or does it experience a response? Do you make decisions or do decisions arise? Do you choose the thoughts leading up to the decision? Do you choose anything?

Thoughts come into my head, some just seem to appear and some it seems I create or can recall (such as a memory). You are asking a question - I think about it by looking for what thoughts arise about the question and then I respond with an answer. I make decisions based on thinking about it and so a decision arises to choose. I suppose I choose the thoughts leading up to a decision based on my past experiences - for example if I go to a restaurant and look at the menu, if I've been there before I think about what I had and do I want to have that again because I liked it or I want to try something new, etc. Nothing else is making the choice for me, no other person or thoughts so it must be me.

When the thoughts start racing and you feel discomfort then the thoughts continue propagating causing more discomfort, ask yourself what's actually happening. Is the content of the thoughts what's happening, or are the thoughts and sensations caused by the thoughts what's happening?

Hmm, if I'm understanding the correctly I would say the thoughts and sensations caused by the thoughts are what's happening. If there is a thought that doesn't cause a disturbing sensation then there isn't discomfort but if it does cause a disturbing sensation then more thoughts come in to try to relieve this discomfort. I do understand this hamster wheel that is ineffective. I think I have been trying to do it in reverse and either change the thought or try to not give the thought attention/believe it so it doesn't trigger the uncomfortable sensation. I think I considered the sensation ONLY a result of the thought so if the thought disappeared so would the sensation. Isn't the sensation only arising due to the thought that is believed? Why feel a sensation that is based in something that isn't existing in the moment?

Can I suggest you stop intentionally practicing when you meditate?

I gave that a try this morning before typing my reply back to you. It's still dark and cold here so I improvised and looked at a tree outside my window or the painting in this room or the cats in this room. I guess I can't say there was NO intention except to just look at these things and rest since you mentioned it being a time to rest. That definitely was a very welcome break and I was a little surprised that my mind was relatively quiet. If I noticed a stream of thoughts coming in I would just say the word "Rest" in my head and it would become more quiet again. Rest wasn't necessarily the goal but just a reminder that my reason to do this was to just sit here. That's the best I was able to do.

Thanks Tyler!

[ty0]

What I am looking at is what does feel to be my direct experience.

What is seen is direct experience, but what about the see-er? Do you see a see-er?

What I mean is that there is something that is having the experience of thoughts and emotions and that appears to be an "I". Nobody else seems to be experiencing the thoughts that arise in my head or the emotions that come into my awareness.

Where is this thing having experience? If this thing that experiences is present in your experience, then what is it that experiences that thing which experiences? Do you see that anything you can point to and say "yep, that's there" a part of experience, and is NOT what is experiencing experience. So what is experiencing experience? Is anything experiencing experience? Or is there only a thought that says there must be something experiencing experience? And is this thought not also part of experience?

All of these experiences are not happening outside of this physical body.

Does experience happen inside of this physical body? Or is this physical body just an idea that exists as a part of experience? How could you know anything about what's outside experience, such as an experiencer, if everything you know is a part of experience? How could you know where these experiences are, if all you know is experience? Is your belief that experiences are not happening outside of this physical body not another part of experience?

I suppose I choose the thoughts leading up to a decision based on my past experiences - for example if I go to a restaurant and look at the menu, if I've been there before I think about what I had and do I want to have that again because I liked it or I want to try something new, etc.

Do you choose to think about what you had before or does the memory automatically arise? Do you decide if you liked it or does a thought saying "I liked it" or "I didn't like it" arise? When all these previous thoughts arise, do you look at them and decide if you want to try something new or does the thought that you want to try something new arise?

Do you control whether you want to have what you had before or whether you want to try something new?

Nothing else is making the choice for me, no other person or thoughts so it must be me.

A logical conclusion. You don't see anything or anyone making the choice, so you conclude it must be you. But what are you? Do you see yourself making the choice? What is the self that makes the choice?

I think I have been trying to do it in reverse and either change the thought or try to not give the thought attention/believe it so it doesn't trigger the uncomfortable sensation. I think I considered the sensation ONLY a result of the thought so if the thought disappeared so would the sensation. Isn't the sensation only arising due to the thought that is believed? Why feel a sensation that is based in something that isn't existing in the moment?

It takes no effort and no thought to feel a sensation that is already there, just as it takes no effort to hear a sound that is already there.

It takes effort and thought to imagine a scenario where the uncomfortable sensation is not there, decide that that would be better, think about what you can do to get to that better scenario rather than the reality of what's happening, identify the thought that's causing the uncomfortable sensation, and then put your plan into action by trying to change or ignore that thought.

Even "the sensation only arising due to the thought that is believed" is a thought, more fuel for you to formulate the right plan of action. The content of the thought is not there, but the sensation is there. Stop running on the hamster wheel and pay attention to what's here, the sensation.

I gave that a try this morning before typing my reply back to you. It's still dark and cold here so I improvised and looked at a tree outside my window or the painting in this room or the cats in this room. I guess I can't say there was NO intention except to just look at these things and rest since you mentioned it being a time to rest. That definitely was a very welcome break and I was a little surprised that my mind was relatively quiet. If I noticed a stream of thoughts coming in I would just say the word "Rest" in my head and it would become more quiet again. Rest wasn't necessarily the goal but just a reminder that my reason to do this was to just sit here. That's the best I was able to do.

That's wonderful. Meditation is NOT a practice. If it were a practice, it would be difficult. When you are having difficulty meditating, you're trying too hard. There is nothing to try for. Most people are habituated to try. They try 99% of their waking hours. Some even try to fall asleep when it's time to sleep. Of course, this doesn't help one fall asleep. Trying is not bad, trying makes things happen. Thoughts are not bad, thoughts make things happen. It's the over-compulsion to think and try and effort and struggle that causes suffering. Meditation is the time for you to leave this habit aside.

[WhoIBee]

Hi Tyler,

Thanks again for your reply and additional questions. I received them last night and read through them but they were hurting my brain so I decided I should wait until the morning to try and decipher replies - LOL!

What is seen is direct experience, but what about the see-er? Do you see a see-er?

I start to get tripped up with this question and wonder if I am "looking" properly for the answer to this. What exactly "IS" direct experience? Only the 5 senses of seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and touching? If that is the case that I can't actual direct experience a see-er unless I look in the mirror. I can "feel" inside a see'er - an awareness that is witnessing what is being experienced - 5 senses, thoughts, body sensations, and emotions.

Where is this thing having experience? If this thing that experiences is present in your experience, then what is it that experiences that thing which experiences? Do you see that anything you can point to and say "yep, that's there" a part of experience, and is NOT what is experiencing experience. So what is experiencing experience? Is anything experiencing experience? Or is there only a thought that says there must be something experiencing experience? And is this thought not also part of experience?

I think I answered above these mind bending questions that were hard for me to follow but to maybe expand - An awareness (that seems to be separate and different from other people's awarenesses) that inhabits THIS body is what seems to be experiencing. I keep using "seems to" because I am here asking for guidance because I recognize that not everything is at is "seems" so I am open to seeing it in reality. So to better clarify what I keep calling a "thing" I would I identify as my awareness.
So, wait a minute - you ask What is experiencing experience? I first thought - awareness - but awareness is just aware of experience but is it experiencing? I guess I'm not sure. I think the awareness is what responds to the experience because experiences get responded to from this body and not by other bodies. It seems to follow logic that something is doing it. I realize some things happen automatically like heart beating, breathing, digesting - bodily functions, but other things seem to be a result of thoughts and emotions - some of which can be controlled and some that can not. I can raise my hand - it doesn't happen automatically, I can think of an apple and an apple appears as an image in my mind.

Although these questions are challenging I am finding it fun to look deeper so thank you for the challenge :)

Does experience happen inside of this physical body? Or is this physical body just an idea that exists as a part of experience?

Hmm, I don't know. Experience happens inside and outside of this physical body but the awareness feels located inside the body that interprets the data. Wow, that sounds like a machine. If the physical body is just an idea it seems odd that awareness would only be limited to this body and not be able to experience everything everywhere. Maybe it can but I have not had that experience here.

How could you know anything about what's outside experience, such as an experiencer, if everything you know is a part of experience? How could you know where these experiences are, if all you know is experience? Is your belief that experiences are not happening outside of this physical body not another part of experience?

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm following these questions. Is there an example you can give to have me look closer? I see it's based on my statement of "All of these experiences are not happening outside of this physical body" so maybe I meant the awareness of all of these experiences are not happening outside of this physical body. A "me" awareness seems contained inside of a body, looking out of eyes, hearing sounds, thinking, interpreting data and responding/reacting, emoting, and doing all kinds of other stuff.

Do you choose to think about what you had before or does the memory automatically arise? Do you decide if you liked it or does a thought saying "I liked it" or "I didn't like it" arise?

I guess I don't know, maybe the memory automatically arises but it just gets interpreted as I chose to recall it. Haha, I guess I don't "decide" if I like a particular food or not, I just either liked it or didn't like it. I can't control if my taste buds found the meal enjoyable or not.

When all these previous thoughts arise, do you look at them and decide if you want to try something new or does the thought that you want to try something new arise? Do you control whether you want to have what you had before or whether you want to try something new?

Hmm, what came first, the chicken or the egg? Again, I think maybe it happens so fast that I can't slow it down to see exactly what is happening with it being a "decision" that I am making based on the previous thoughts or that the thought of trying something new or getting something I had before just arises. Do I "control" it? I guess I don't know for sure. Is there a way to notice that to see what actually IS happening?

But what are you? Do you see yourself making the choice? What is the self that makes the choice?

I don't know what I am. An awareness exists inside this body that is noticing and seemingly having experiences from this particular perspective based on past experiences, and conditioning. Or are we just puppets that something is controlling? I saw a meme one time that depicted this and I actually laughed and thought that this is probably true. But why do we "think" that we are on our own and struggling when we can rest in knowing that something "else" has complete control? Well, that gets into more thoughts I guess and only direct experience will reveal truth to me - yet another thought - LOL!

Stop running on the hamster wheel and pay attention to what's here, the sensation.

I will examine more when this arises and pay attention to the sensation/emotion. Can an emotion arise without a thought? That doesn't seem to be my experience. A sensation in the body - yes, but not an emotion. Hmm, but is there a difference? Is an emotion just a sensation that arises in the body that then gets interpreted by the mind and labeled a specific emotion but it's actually just a sensation arising? I'll have to look at that more closely too. I'm not sure I've had an emotion arise without thought. Like there seems to be a difference in the sensation of a stomach ache for example that is not attached to an emotion but then sadness arises (seems like from a thought) that doesn't feel like a body sensation exactly but might feel like it's coming from the chest area.

I look forward to your responses. Thank you:)

[ty0]

Direct experience is the 5 senses and thought, but the content of thought is not direct experience, as in, it's not what is happening.
This is the distinction between the direct experience of thought vs. when one is buying into the content of thought. Which statement is more true?
a) A thought that says "I'm xyz years old" is here
OR
b) I'm xyz years old
The second statement is not verifiable through direct experience, the first statement is.

You sound convinced that you're the awareness experiencing everything, or at least that awareness exists. You say this is the case because you can feel this awareness inside witnessing. But if this awareness is felt, as in, within your experience, then what is aware of this awareness? If you feel "awareness" like you feel the senses and thoughts, what makes "awareness" any more in here than those other things that are out there?

An awareness (that seems to be separate and different from other people's awarenesses)

And what are other people's awarenesses? Is this direct experience (DE), or the content of thought? Is there:
a) other people's awarenesses
OR
b) a thought about other people's awarenesses

that inhabits THIS body is what seems to be experiencing

What is this body? Is it DE, or the content of thought? Is there:
a) a physical body
OR
b) sensations, sights, and a thought that labels it your body

I think the awareness is what responds to the experience because experiences get responded to from this body and not by other bodies. It seems to follow logic that something is doing it.

There is no this body and other bodies. As soon as you're following logic, you're using your imagination. Logic is not verifiable, only look at DE. Look at where logic led Hitler.

I can raise my hand - it doesn't happen automatically, I can think of an apple and an apple appears as an image in my mind.

Did the thought to raise your hand not arise because you were reading what I wrote? Is that not automatic?
What led you to think of an apple? Before you thought of an apple, you made the decision to think of something and observe its image in your mind. Did you choose that thing to be an apple, or did the thought "apple" arise automatically?
Did you choose to make the decision to think of something and observe its image in your mind, or did our conversation lead to the thought of doing that arising?

A "me" awareness seems contained inside of a body, looking out of eyes, hearing sounds, thinking, interpreting data and responding/reacting, emoting, and doing all kinds of other stuff.

Look closer at this awareness. What is it? Is it anything more than a thought? Regardless of what it is, if you can observe it (I can't), how can it be you, and how can it be aware of other things?

Or are we just puppets that something is controlling? I saw a meme one time that depicted this and I actually laughed and thought that this is probably true. But why do we "think" that we are on our own and struggling when we can rest in knowing that something "else" has complete control? Well, that gets into more thoughts I guess and only direct experience will reveal truth to me - yet another thought - LOL!

Yes, all that is just stories, even "truth" hahaha.

Like there seems to be a difference in the sensation of a stomach ache for example that is not attached to an emotion but then sadness arises (seems like from a thought) that doesn't feel like a body sensation exactly but might feel like it's coming from the chest area.

In my experience, an "emotion" is not an independent experience. Thoughts arise that are believed and sensations arise as a result, then that thought and sensation are clumped together and experienced as emotion. When you experience an emotion, look at the sensations and thoughts in your experience, there's nothing apart from those that is "emotion".

[WhoIBee]

You sound convinced that you're the awareness experiencing everything, or at least that awareness exists. You say this is the case because you can feel this awareness inside witnessing. But if this awareness is felt, as in, within your experience, then what is aware of this awareness? If you feel "awareness" like you feel the senses and thoughts, what makes "awareness" any more in here than those other things that are out there?

Ugh, I don't know what is aware of this awareness. Maybe it's more accurate to say awareness is here but it's hard to not attach that to a some thing where awareness is present but I can't through DE verify that. Which I guess leads back to the ultimate question of Who/What am I? How can a "not" be found or seen?

Look closer at this awareness. What is it? Is it anything more than a thought? Regardless of what it is, if you can observe it (I can't), how can it be you, and how can it be aware of other things?

I keep trying to think about a baby and how it responds in the world. It probably doesn't think "I'm hungry" or "Where is my Mom?" but it automatically responds and reacts in the environment without interpretation. Is it conscious? Is it aware of itself? I guess it just IS. Awareness is not observable. I don't know if there is anything more than thought. I will sit with these questions and keep looking.

[ty0]

Ugh, I don't know what is aware of this awareness. Maybe it's more accurate to say awareness is here but it's hard to not attach that to a some thing where awareness is present but I can't through DE verify that. Which I guess leads back to the ultimate question of Who/What am I? How can a "not" be found or seen?

You're still trying to use the information you have to come up with an answer or "find" something. Everything there is to see is already seen, otherwise it wouldn't exist to be seen. Is there any sound that you don't hear? Of course not, if there were a sound, you would hear it. There cannot be a sound that isn't heard, there can only be a thought about a sound you don't hear.

Stop trying to look beyond what's here, because there isn't anything beyond what's here. There's only thoughts about things beyond what's here, and these thoughts about what's not here are just a part of what's here.

Awareness is not observable. I don't know if there is anything more than thought. I will sit with these questions and keep looking.

Yes, awareness is not observable. I don't know why so many people insist on the existence of awareness, and they're so adamant that they're "aware". I have no idea what they're talking about. Is there any "awareness" of a sound apart from the sound itself? Is there any awareness of the sensations in your hands other than those sensations themselves?

Some say there's a "knowing" that they're aware of those sensations. This knowing is nothing but thought. There are sensations and there is the thought "I'm aware of these sensations". This is why I emphasise the distinction between direct experience and the content of thought. Which statement is more accurate about your experience?:
a) You are aware of sensations
OR
b) There is a thought that says you are aware of sensations

[WhoIBee]

You're still trying to use the information you have to come up with an answer or "find" something.

Indeed, that is why I am here. Why are we doing any sort of dialog with you pointing if there isn't something to see that I am currently not seeing or not noticing that I am already seeing it?

Stop trying to look beyond what's here, because there isn't anything beyond what's here. There's only thoughts about things beyond what's here, and these thoughts about what's not here are just a part of what's here.

I can't share what I am noticing unless I use thoughts to then type out responses. If I understood what you are pointing to or asking of me then I probably wouldn't be here.

Is there any sound that you don't hear? Of course not, if there were a sound, you would hear it. There cannot be a sound that isn't heard, there can only be a thought about a sound you don't hear.

I think there are sounds happening all of the time that I don't hear because I'm not paying attention to them but if I stop to listen then I hear them.

I don't know why so many people insist on the existence of awareness, and they're so adamant that they're "aware". I have no idea what they're talking about. Is there any "awareness" of a sound apart from the sound itself? Is there any awareness of the sensations in your hands other than those sensations themselves?

I don't "insist" on awareness. If I wasn't open to trying to see things differently I wouldn't be here asking for guidance. Really, you have no idea what we're talking about? I guess you never lived with the illusion of a separate self with conditioning and thoughts that you didn't even know that felt as if they were running your life? If there wasn't an awareness of the sensations in my hands then they wouldn't be noticed by anything to even have a recognition that there is anything happening.

Which statement is more accurate about your experience?:
a) You are aware of sensations
OR
b) There is a thought that says you are aware of sensations

It feels that both of these statements are accurate. I can directly experience sensations and then there can be thoughts to label and talk about that in a description.

[ty0]

Indeed, that is why I am here. Why are we doing any sort of dialog with you pointing if there isn't something to see that I am currently not seeing or not noticing that I am already seeing it?

Well, the thing is, you're looking for it in thought. You're looking for an "it". But there's no "it" for you to find in thoughts. And even "it" or "a thing to find" are concepts/thoughts, so you wouldn't feel as though you've found anything when thoughts are dropped. Any conclusion or answer you come to will just be another thought that you can doubt later. I'm trying to encourage you to stop looking in thought because there's nothing of value you will find there.

I can't share what I am noticing unless I use thoughts to then type out responses. If I understood what you are pointing to or asking of me then I probably wouldn't be here.

Well, there's nothing to understand, the only things that can be understood are thoughts. I'm not pointing you towards an answer to understand. I'm encouraging you to look at what's already here instead of trying to create something different from what's here with thought.

I think there are sounds happening all of the time that I don't hear because I'm not paying attention to them but if I stop to listen then I hear them.

Notice how the first 2 words of this sentence are "I think"? How can there be a sound happening that you don't hear? Do you see that "a sound that you don't hear" is not a sound, but a thought? And even me saying it's a thought is a thought.

What is present in your experience? What is verifiable through DE?
a) There are sounds happening all of the time that you don't hear because you're not paying attention to them but if you stop to listen then you hear them.
OR
b) There is a thought that says "there are sounds happening all of the time that you don't hear because you're not paying attention to them but if you stop to listen then you hear them."

Note that I can disagree with you if you insist on point A but not on point B, why is that so?

I don't "insist" on awareness. If I wasn't open to trying to see things differently I wouldn't be here asking for guidance. Really, you have no idea what we're talking about? I guess you never lived with the illusion of a separate self with conditioning and thoughts that you didn't even know that felt as if they were running your life?

There is a memory (thought) that there was a time when I thought that "awareness" existed. There is a memory (thought) that when I looked for it, I couldn't find it. Currently, in my experience, there's nothing I can point to and label as "awareness". There is a thought that says there was never anything in my experience that I could label as awareness, there was only ever a thought about awareness.

I don't doubt that you're open to seeing things differently because you're here.

If there wasn't an awareness of the sensations in my hands then they wouldn't be noticed by anything to even have a recognition that there is anything happening.

Well of course if you set up your premise and definition like that then you can come to a conclusion predetermined by your rules of the game. But I'm not asking you to look at the information and logic you have and say "there is awareness" or "there isn't awareness". This is jut a closed loop of thought on top of thought. I want you to look at your experience and ask "What is awareness?" and see if there's anything called awareness that you feel like you feel the sensation of your hand or you see like you see your nose in the middle of your vision. It's not about is there or is there not awareness, as a discussion. Simply look, and you will see what there is, and you will not see what there is not.

It feels that both of these statements are accurate. I can directly experience sensations and then there can be thoughts to label and talk about that in a description.

Ok, again, verifiable through DE, what's actually here?:
a) It feels that both of these statements are accurate. You can directly experience sensations and then there can be thoughts to label and talk about that in a description.
OR
b) A thought that says "It feels that both of these statements are accurate. You can directly experience sensations and then there can be thoughts to label and talk about that in a description."

[WhoIBee]

Hi again Tyler,

I am writing again this morning because I recognize I am feeling frustrated and my last reply was snippy and came from annoyance. A lot of emotions and sensations arose yesterday (and have been for about a year now I think). I did my best to not focus on the thoughts that arose but to just allow the emotions/sensations to be there but a hell of a lot of thoughts were there and were sticking and causing a great deal of suffering. Actually, as I type this now, tears are coming again. These emotions are extremely intense, they exhaust the body and mind. Terrifying thoughts come about not being able to handle it, or something in life WILL come that I won't be able to handle and I'll go crazy or kill myself, and thoughts about death.Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts. There is this belief that without thoughts I am not safe, I won't be able to take care of myself, and I will be helpless. From what you are sharing it sounds like the thoughts aren't the problem but that they are trying to protect something (an I) that isn't there is what is happening.

I am reading 'Gateless Gatecrashers' and happened to be reading the "Richard" chapter and how Elena was responding to him was reminding me of you. Hey wait, I just saw that you replied back to me from this morning already. Let me look and respond to your replies.

I'm trying to encourage you to stop looking in thought because there's nothing of value you will find there.

Stop looking in thought - I got nothin'. There are the 5 senses and sensations - period.

I'm encouraging you to look at what's already here instead of trying to create something different from what's here with thought.

Breathing, seeing, thinking, typing, hearing, touching.

How can there be a sound happening that you don't hear? Do you see that "a sound that you don't hear" is not a sound, but a thought? And even me saying it's a thought is a thought. What is present in your experience? What is verifiable through DE?
a) There are sounds happening all of the time that you don't hear because you're not paying attention to them but if you stop to listen then you hear them.
OR
b) There is a thought that says "there are sounds happening all of the time that you don't hear because you're not paying attention to them but if you stop to listen then you hear them."
Note that I can disagree with you if you insist on point A but not on point B, why is that so?

Yes, I see that it is b. Reality seems to point to "hearing a sound" - period. Point B can't be disputed because only DE can be verified so only a thought says sounds are happening all of the time.

I want you to look at your experience and ask "What is awareness?" and see if there's anything called awareness that you feel like you feel the sensation of your hand or you see like you see your nose in the middle of your vision. It's not about is there or is there not awareness, as a discussion. Simply look, and you will see what there is, and you will not see what there is not.

Awareness looks to be a thought. It's not identifiable through any DE other than a thought. So thoughts exist as DE but their content is actually not. Like I'm looking - "there is a doorknob" but that is just a thought, all I can verify is "seeing". The thought arose "What? Is that right?"

Ok, again, verifiable through DE, what's actually here?:
a) It feels that both of these statements are accurate. You can directly experience sensations and then there can be thoughts to label and talk about that in a description.
OR
b) A thought that says "It feels that both of these statements are accurate. You can directly experience sensations and then there can be thoughts to label and talk about that in a description."

Oops, I think I got tripped up here again - DE is sensation existing and thought existing.
Thoughts seem to be present with every single thing interpreting WHAT is seen, heard, felt...

[ty0]

These emotions are extremely intense, they exhaust the body and mind. Terrifying thoughts come about not being able to handle it, or something in life WILL come that I won't be able to handle and I'll go crazy or kill myself, and thoughts about death.Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts. There is this belief that without thoughts I am not safe, I won't be able to take care of myself, and I will be helpless. From what you are sharing it sounds like the thoughts aren't the problem but that they are trying to protect something (an I) that isn't there is what is happening.

The thoughts aren't the problem, the problem is a thought. What the thoughts are trying to protect is a thought. Terror happens to most people who go through this, because everything "you" are and everything you hold dear are thoughts. The thoughts don't want to stop, and your thoughts know exactly how to cause the most distress to ensure their survival. But at the end of the day, all your and my explanations of these processes are also thoughts. So what's left if there's nothing to do with thought? Nothing. No way to mitigate terror, no way to keep yourself safe from harm, no certainty that you won't go insane. No way to "feel into the emotions" because it's not a choice you make, they come and you have no choice but to feel them. But if it counts for anything, most people who go through this process go through this phase of terror and fear of going crazy, so I'm not alarmed that you're experiencing this.

I am reading 'Gateless Gatecrashers' and happened to be reading the "Richard" chapter and how Elena was responding to him was reminding me of you. Hey wait, I just saw that you replied back to me from this morning already. Let me look and respond to your replies.

Cool, I've never read it myself. I liked the first Jed McKenna book.

Stop looking in thought - I got nothin'. There are the 5 senses and sensations - period.

That's not nothing, is it? That's quite a lot. And if by "nothing" you mean not what you were expecting, what were you expecting? Is it disappointing because reality doesn't line up with what you imagined?

Yes, I see that it is b. Reality seems to point to "hearing a sound" - period. Point B can't be disputed because only DE can be verified so only a thought says sounds are happening all of the time.

Yes, what can be disputed are opinions. All thoughts are opinions. What can't be disputed is DE, because it's already there. If there's a sound, there's nothing to dispute. I can even say "there isn't a sound" and it wouldn't make a difference to the DE of the sound.

Awareness looks to be a thought. It's not identifiable through any DE other than a thought. So thoughts exist as DE but their content is actually not. Like I'm looking - "there is a doorknob" but that is just a thought, all I can verify is "seeing". The thought arose "What? Is that right?"

Yep, we label things like "tree", "sky", etc., and we end up not seeing what is actually seen, instead just noting the label and disregarding the DE. Let's go one step further. When you look at the doorknob, can you even verify "seeing"? Is there such a thing as "seeing" in DE apart from the image of the doorknob? What about sensation? Is there DE the "feeling" of the sensation in your right hand, or is DE only the sensation? What really is "seeing" and "feeling"?

I suggest you return to the sky-gazing exercise (more like non-exercise). Gaze at the "sky" until "sky" the label drops and you start seeing what is actually seen in its full glory. You can gently probe with some questions but effort is discouraged, questions include:
What is the sky?
Is this the sky?
What is being seen?
What?
What the fuck?

[WhoIBee]

No way to "feel into the emotions" because it's not a choice you make, they come and you have no choice but to feel them. But if it counts for anything, most people who go through this process go through this phase of terror and fear of going crazy, so I'm not alarmed that you're experiencing this.

It is seeming to be true that I don't have a choice about emotions arising! A pattern has been noticed lately - when anxiety arises it feels like it's covering a deeper emotion wanting to be felt. Anxiety is felt in the body as like some initial alarm that is "trying" to keep hidden something else and keep the focus on itself instead of going deeper. I have been finding that if I look deeper and sit with the anxiety, it opens to some other emotion and if that is then felt more closely then the anxiety dissipates. I know these are thoughts but this is what is arising. Luckily I have listened and read enough to have heard that the terror, fear of going crazy, and death are typical. So although they are incredibly uncomfortable and cause me to feel like a helpless infant they come in waves that last about 24 hours each time so there is some "recovery" time. It feels very bizarre that I can feel such incredible terror and helplessness one day and then actually feel pretty calm the next. It is getting increasingly difficult for feelings to get stuffed down and if they do temporarily because to function in the world I have been able to pull it together outwardly until I'm back home where it then unleashes again. This also is starting to feel less like I am the one doing any of this though and that it is just able to happen that way.

That's not nothing, is it? That's quite a lot. And if by "nothing" you mean not what you were expecting, what were you expecting? Is it disappointing because reality doesn't line up with what you imagined?

I wouldn't say I was "expecting" something else - hmm, wait, maybe I was. Not something more exciting but I think I expect things to be revealed as "insights" which I suppose are thoughts essentially. But then what is intuition? Is that a thought? It's not exactly a DE although it may have a sensation. I don't think disappointment has happened in regards to having reality be not what I have imagined.

Let's go one step further. When you look at the doorknob, can you even verify "seeing"? Is there such a thing as "seeing" in DE apart from the image of the doorknob? What about sensation? Is there DE the "feeling" of the sensation in your right hand, or is DE only the sensation? What really is "seeing" and "feeling"?

Well to "verify" seeing takes believing a thought I suppose. It is a description of what is happening. I'm not understanding the second question about DE apart from the image. Yes, I see that "feeling" is not a DE it's probably really a thought huh? DE is only the sensation. Maybe you're meaning "seeing" or verbs imply someone "doing" it as opposed to a doorknob is seen, or appears? Gosh, our language is really tied to reinforce subject, object and the "I". I probably haven't truly had a DE of anything in reality since I was a baby.

I suggest you return to the sky-gazing exercise (more like non-exercise). Gaze at the "sky" until "sky" the label drops and you start seeing what is actually seen in its full glory.

Could I practice this same thing by gazing at a tree outside my window? It's too cold outside for me to spend any substantial amount of time out there looking at the sky without movement of my body:)