Looking for stable access to no-self view

[yanda]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The understanding is as permanently resolving that the feeling of the separate self, as is currently being experienced in the subjective (eg first party) sensorium, is an illusion. There is no actual doer, decider, experiencer ... only that which is being experienced.

What are you looking for at LU?
There has been previous direct experience of no-self/no-center in a powerful, yet transitory, way. There is also understanding of no-self intellectually. Yet the illusion is strong, and most of existence is still spent feeling (sometimes subtly, sometimes strongly) that there is a doer/decider/manager. Wishing for this illusion to have "nails in the coffin", so to speak, be permanently resolved.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Clear instruction on how to permanently see and resolve the self illusion, so as to free experience from this illusion and for experience to be able to enjoy itself, free from "wasting energy" manifesting this illusion.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
1. 7 years of mostly daily non-dual meditation practices in both secular and Dzogchen styles: Sam Harris WakingUp (app), Mingyur Rinpoche's Joy of Living & Path of Liberation (levels 1-4), Loch Kelly & Stephen Bodian. Multiple retreats in this style of practice.
2. 6 months of jhana practice, including later jhanas (6-7) but no cessation

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hi yanda (is that what you want me to call you?), I'm Tyler and welcome to LU :)


Here's the narrative it sounds like you're buying into:
There's something here (you call it a self) and it's causing all your problems. You'd like to get rid of it so that you can feel better. In order to get rid of it, you do practices like jhana/meditation/whatever. So far, you haven't been able to get rid of that problematic something and now you've come here, hoping a guide can help you get rid of it so you can finally feel better.

The thing is, none of that is actually happening. Your history, goals, and evaluation of your current situation are nothing but fiction. Empty thoughts and concepts. Ghosts in the wind. There's no problem for you to solve, and much of your suffering comes from feeling like the one trying to solve a problem, like a dog chasing its own tail.

It's important not to mistake the content of your thoughts for reality. When I ask you questions, I generally want you to look in your direct experience for the answer, not the content of thought. When I say direct experience, I mean your 5 senses + thought. Not what thought says, but the appearance of thought, like the appearance of sound and sensation. Which statement is more true, only looking at direct experience?
a) You brushed your teeth yesterday
b) There is a memory (thought) of you brushing your teeth yesterday

Now, look at your direct experience and tell me, what's the problem?

[yanda]

Hi Tyler. Calling me Yanda is great, thanks for asking.

This is very insightful. As per your questions.

(b) feels more true. There is no yesterday, only a memory (thought) appearing in the current sensory experience. It helps I think that I have a pretty shitty autobiographical memory partly due to aphantasia - so even that thought of a memory feels wispy. More thoughts / concepts, I realize.

And yeah, when looking at direct experience, there is no problem. These thoughts of self or no-self are just more thoughts appearing in the sensory experience. I’m only bothered when letting myself get caught up in their content. Otherwise they fade and the senses of now are here and dreamy and magical.

And yet, that “self” thought is much more attractive (eg in the gravity / “has a pull”) sense than the “memory” of yesterday. Does that pull fade ever? If I look, there is nothing, but it feels more tempting to not look with “self” than it does with the content of (most) other thoughts.

[ty0]

Nice to meet you :)

Can you give some examples of thoughts that pull you in? What happens when you're pulled in?

Look now at experience. What's there? Who/what are you?

[yanda]

Likewise a pleasure, and thank you for your time!

What kind of thoughts pull me in: predominantly a sense of someone intending to do / about to do something. Happens most clearly when "changing course," eg "moving" the main focus of attention from sights to sounds for example, or when about to perform an action (eg. like drinking, or about to stand from sitting, etc.). Feel an "intender" about to action

What happens when pulled in: a subtle thought "following experience in" that's hard to perceive unless looked at closely. Content of the thought is "I am about to do / doing / sensing..."

When I look at experience closely: it's only a thought, no such someone to be found, only the experience itself, but it feels like the illusion returns when not looking at experience closely.

[ty0]

And what's wrong with that? Without the thought (intention) to do something, could we do anything? How is the appearance of an "intender" any different from a sight or a sound, or another thought? Look at the sense of the "intender" carefully. Though it may seem more "in here" compared to other thoughts/sounds/sights/etc. that are more "out there", is it really? Is it not just another object of experience? There is nothing wrong with any appearance, other than the belief that there's something wrong with it. I don't know of anyone who doesn't experience intention. No agency does not mean there is no choice/volition.

Why do you want to get rid of this? (assuming you want to get rid of this)

Intentions arise, but do you intend for those intentions to arise before they do?

[yanda]

It's possible nothing is wrong with it. That said, there's a clearer sense in experience that "there's no seer, only sight" or "no hearer, only sound" ... with the intender/doer, there's this subtle feeling that there's an "agent" doing the intending/doing. When inspected, there is none, but the default state still feels (/ subtle but pervasive thought) like there is one.

I definitely don't intend for the intentions to arise, or if "I" do, definitely don't intend to intend, etc...

I don't want to get rid of the intention... it does feel though that I'd like to see with "less effort" that there's no "I" doing the intending.

[ty0]

It sounds quite vague. You know there's no "I" creating the intentions because you don't observe any such thing in your experience. Do you have doubts?

it does feel though that I'd like to see with "less effort" that there's no "I" doing the intending.

But you look, and you don't see an "I". There's no effort required to not see an "I", is there? Look closely or don't look at all, you won't see an "I".

[yanda]

There are no doubts, am probably just overthinking it. The sense of the doer/intender feels more present than the sense of the seer/hearer, which feels more obviously easy to see through.

[ty0]

This most recent post may be relevant to you

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9253&p=402404#p402404

[yanda]

Yes it was helpful. I think I'm satisfied. I can notice the intention as a manifestation in consciousness without getting pulled in by it. Thank you