Please help me push through

[Scotty]

HI Elad,

I see what you mean, these are also just labels, which are deeply ingrained.

So right now, if someone came and said to you "in fact there is a separate self, and you are that", what reactions come up, thoughts and feelings?

I feel the need to rebuke this statement, and say we are not in control of seeing, or doing or thinking. The sense of separate self is an idea or concept which has been built up over time and associated to the observer / the thinker. But the observer / the thinker is a natural state which is idependent of the concept of self.

I get quite confused sometimes when I start to put this stuff into words too much, it seems to increase the concepts I'm juggling and then I see things less clearly. I certainly don't feel just now that the observer is a natual state which is idependent of the concept of self, but it is late in the evening after a busy day.

I see glimpses, like when I was walking outside in the afternoon, I felt how needless it is to have a concept of self and everything felt very "immediate" like there was no distance to the trees in the street. Sometimes it seems like it would be easy to drop, at other times it seems very hard.

Where I am, I would say is that, I can't let go for some reason, some conditioning is rearing it's head. Maybe it's because there is the feeling that "I" have to do something, though I know this just a compulsion on it's own.

I'll sit with it a while.

WIth love
Scott

[Elad]

associated to the observer / the thinker. But the observer / the thinker is a natural state which is idependent of the concept of self.

What is thinking the thoughts?
What is hearing the sounds?
Is there actually an observer/thinker?
Or is that just a habitual belief?

I see glimpses, like when I was walking outside in the afternoon, I felt how needless it is to have a concept of self and everything felt very "immediate" like there was no distance to the trees in the street.

Beautiful.

Sometimes it seems like it would be easy to drop, at other times it seems very hard.

Key word here is "seems". All of that are stories inside the hall of mirrors of stories about stories.

Where I am, I would say is that, I can't let go for some reason, some conditioning is rearing it's head. Maybe it's because there is the feeling that "I" have to do something, though I know this just a compulsion on it's own.

I'll sit with it a while.

How could an unconscious nonsentient contraction let go of a contraction? It could not. It also could not not.
How could an unconscious nonsentient illusion see that it is an illusion? It could not. It also could not not.

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

I just want to thank you again for working with me, I greatly appreciate it.

What is thinking the thoughts?

Nothing

What is hearing the sounds?

Nothing

Is there actually an observer/thinker?

From looking at an object and feeling relaxed, a pleasant co-existence is felt. If I look at it in a hostile manner then a feeling of separation is there. It seems looking at the object through the hostility creates a feeling of separateness, or looking at an object with a will to act on it creates a feeling of separateness.

Or is that just a habitual belief?

Maybe it is just a feeling of separateness, I'm not sure.

How could an unconscious nonsentient contraction let go of a contraction? It could not. It also could not not.

Logically it can't

How could an unconscious nonsentient illusion see that it is an illusion? It could not. It also could not not.

Logically it can't

Thanks for these, it clearly shows the realization hasn't happened yet. The thoughts and feelings are still being measured and weighed against the concept of self for some kind of attainment - the attainment of no-self. I don't see why all these concepts can't just be dropped.

With love
Scott

[Elad]

With love...

If on a psychological/conventional level there was not the capacity to separate your body from my body, your thoughts from my thoughts, etc, you would not be a functional human being.

We are not looking to eradicate the capacity for differentiation and separation on the relative level. It is like knowing hot water, cold water, the temperature the body likes, and how it feels when the water temperature moves away from that. It all exists practically and conventionally.

It can just be seen with full clarity that ALL that, the absolute and the relative, are non-separate, without a separate self controlling it anywhere.

It is like saying right hand and left hand are not separate and not separate from the body, and yet for purposes of communication we can separate.

Keep looking:

What is thinking that awakening has not happened?
What is thinking the thoughts and beliefs whatever they are NOW?
Is there a separate self doing it?


This is not about forming the right intellectual conviction. Just keep looking at these questions IN REAL TIME. Enjoy every glimpse of clarity. And write me soon how things move.

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Thanks for the reply.

When I mentioned dropping concepts, I meant dropping the belief in them only (not the awareness of them), so using the concepts as a tool and not living by them, how do you see that point of view?

What is thinking that awakening has not happened?

It is clear that nothing is thinking this thought, that there is no "I" in control of thoughts, there is just the thought itself.

After this thought (awakening has not happened) there is the following thought that it was caused by the belief in a separate self which causes a feeling of frustration.

What is thinking the thoughts and beliefs whatever they are NOW?

It is clear that nothing is thinking this thought.

Is there a separate self doing it?

I feel there is no separate self doing it, the thought just occurs.

For me the contradiction is my answers to the above questions and the continued vested interest in the thoughts and feelings which come up. Do you see this as a contradiction too?

I would try and describe it as:
There is the feeling that "thought is the problem" or more acurrately "emotional thought is the problem" and that focusing on the content of thoughts and feelings will somehow provide understanding and resolve these thoughts and feelings and "solve the problem".

Yesterday, I had a wonderful feeling of "enough is enough" and there was not much thinking or conceptualizing going on, just feeling strongly the need to drop it all and be a fully present human being. It felt very very nice indeed, it maintained itself during the course of most of the day and felt very sane. The idea that I have to look inward was rejected, as it is a distraction away from being fully present to what is happening.

With love
Scott

[Scotty]

To further clarify

The idea that I have to look inward was rejected, as it is a distraction away from being fully present to what is happening.

I know that there is no "looking inwards", I can rephrase that to say the desire to focus on thoughts and feelings above other stimuli.

[Scotty]

Sometimes it's clear there is nothing "I" can do, the thoughts arn't important.

Sometimes there is the need to analyse and understand.

It's all so transient anyway, anything which appears by definition is transient and will also dissaper

With love
Scott

[Elad]

Nice. Sounds to me you are flip-flopping between seeing and believing thoughts. This is normal. In fact the strongest "flop" into believing thoughts right now, are the thoughts about how you should not believe thoughts or be vested in thoughts. You flipflop between just looking and then again evaluating experience, trying to rationally pin down if awakening is there or not. Can you see the paradox in using belief in rational evaluation of awakening, to try and go beyond belief in thought?

All this is normal. On an absolute level it is seen that there is no self, no agent, no responsible one, beyond doubt. On a conventional level, patterns of thought-feeling continue showing up, and are for the vast majority of us only transmuted into more wholesome patterns through a slow process of seeing and automatic change out of seeing, one moment at the time. This is in the neighborhood of what many teachers call shadow work, but also what Buddhism speak of in terms of Karma and Shila (ethics). Some people have a big honeymoon where it seems like all is resolved for a while, many don't have a big honeymoon, and wanting it is nothing different than any other craving, any other resistance to what is.

So: Focus on if it is experientially clear beyond doubt that there is no separate self, and that if anything is seemingly a separate self, this is in fact not a separate self. Is that 100% experientially clear?

When I ask you if it is 100% clear I don't ask you to asses yourself accross time - who would be assessed? What could wake up across time? I ask to LOOK NOW again and again, without past or future (just thoughts), with all your heart, if it is clear beyond doubt that there is no agent behind what is happening, no experiencer, and never was?

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Yes, this flip flopping is what is going on. I think the contradiction of evaluating thoughts to try and go beyond thought is becoming more apparent as there is less interest in evaluating thoughts for this purpose. Yes I completely get the craving point you make, craving for no-self has very little difference than craving your favourite soccer team to win the cup and thinking about it doesn't make it more possible.

It really is 100% clear that there is no self to be found, and I know there never was. I'm sitting with my family watching TV or having dinner and there is no separate self to be found, just thoughts and feelings and interactions. Sometimes I think it's more a question of bravery to have this full understanding of what is actually going on and for longer periods of time there is no preoccupation with the concept of "Scott".

I haven't been thinking much about these topics for a week or so, which seems to me a natural and healthy progression. It makes me feel a bit like a little kid who has no intellectual escapes to amuse himself with.

From my point of view, I'm happy to conclude our discussion, as I feel you have helped me a lot to achieve clarity on what is going on.
For me some major points that helped clear things were:

1. The idea that the "I" was attaching itself, realizing that the "I" is not doing this was a big help.
2. Releazing that the need to observe thoughts, was related to a fear of the content (regardless of the aspect of control).

With love
Scott

[Elad]

Hi Scott, this sounds great! If you are up for it, I would like to invite you to explore this a little more:

Sometimes I think it's more a question of bravery to have this full understanding of what is actually going on

Can you say more about this? FEEL into it and say more.

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Sometimes I think it's more a question of bravery to have this full understanding of what is actually going on

Can you say more about this? FEEL into it and say more.

Well, I think looking at things clearly needs a certain amount of bravery or honesty also where nothing is excluded or preferred.

Slight degression:
Right now, I‘m have the feeling that this whole problem of „I“ is almost a purely grammatical one, that we are taught to say „I want an apple“, „I like cake“ and after a certain amount of time we start to believe in the „I“. Whereas we know wanting an apple is just a feeling.

With love
Scott

[Elad]

If you feel there is someone that needs to be protected and saved from suffering and death, that is way more then grammatical, its what is running your life, weather you are aware of it or not. So while the generation of the illusion might happen through grammar and social interaction, the main point for our work, is if the belief is still operating at the FEELING level.

How is it for you with regards to that?
What has changed in the way life feels, how relationships, hopes and fears function?


Your answer to the question from last post was logical, and in that sense obvious, but it wasn't clear what it said or didn't say about what is really going on for you at the emotional level, at the gut level, where things make a difference.

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Well said.

How is it for you with regards to that?

At the feeling level, everything is pretty calm, I feel less separate from the environment and less special and am analyzing things much less. Regarding needing to be protected, I was feeling this a lot before, the need to self protect was closely linked to analysing my thoughts and feelings, but it feels much less now.

What has changed in the way life feels, how relationships, hopes and fears function?

I feel more spontanious and relationships feel a bit fresher, both hopes and fears play less of a role. I still get carried away by somethings, but I know it doesn't mean anything and that it will pass.

For example I was remembering something my wife said to me half a year ago which hurt me and I was feeling hurt thinking about it, but then there is the awareness that it is just a memory and the reaction to the memory - it doesn't need to be invested in or analysed or somehow dealt with. It can only be felt as long as the feeling lasts.

Lastly, I'm consciously aware of circumstances dictating my actions, feeling a bit more adrift and not pushing for this and that.

With love
Scott

[Scotty]

There is also the general feeling at times of how irrelevant thoughts and feelings from the past can be for the current situation - that they are not really applicable.

Two days ago there was the very pleasant feeling that the thoughts and feelings of being a father driving his family home from camping is a common experience for all fathers doing the same - and that it is privelage to participate / experience these thoughts and feelings.

I thought I would mention that too.

With love
Scott

[Elad]

This all sounds lovely to me Scott. If you still don't feel doubt, or something else you want help to explore with regards to seeing through the belief in self, I invite you to answer these Liberation Unleashed "check point questions". They might uncover areas where we can clarify something. If I see nothing to clarify when I read them, what we typically do is, that we let some other guides read the answers also, to see if they have suggestions for further clarification/inquiry. You ave all ready answered some of these questions, but please answer again with honesty and beginners mind, answering all of them in one message.

Here are the questions (and feel free to ask something else, if there is anything you feel doubt about, that you wanna engage before looking at them):



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.



3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.



4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look; as in what was a moment of shift if any?



5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.



6) What makes things happen? How does it work?



7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.



8) Anything to add?