Got stuck in tiger's mouth

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for giving more examples to distinguish between acceptance and bypassing, it was helpful :)

When you are content with whatever IS, there's not even a sense of attention either

Yes, not even awareness

is there such a voice – one that you can record and play back – or this is how thoughts are experienced?

This is just how thoughts are experienced.

Observe the mind as a labelling machine. Look around the room and notice things, see how thoughts label everything automatically. This automatic labelling process can create the illusion that a separate entity/a narrator is observing and evaluating sensations,colours, smells... when, in reality, it's just the mind's (thoughts') habitual way of operating

This is so true! Heh, it’s really just a labelling machine!

try to find who is hearing and receiving the thoughts and who is doing the explanation? Are there two entities or just the content of thoughts?

I now understand the difference between the arising of thoughts and their content. The arising of thoughts, like sensations, is 'real'—it happens. But their content is chaotic and disconnected from reality. I used to think they were the same thing, and because I couldn’t deny that thoughts arise in the same way sensations do, I mistakenly gave their content the same weight of truth!

Once there is no more suspicion, it is known without any doubt that the narrator is an illusion (the nature of thoughts), focus can be shifted to examining the validity of the labels “positive” and “negative” vs the DE of the sensations…

There’s still some ambiguity around the idea that the content of thoughts can be useful. Some thoughts seem practical, while others don’t, and 'I' am supposedly the one who decides which ones to pay attention to and which to ignore. But I can’t actually find this 'I'—the chooser, the one paying attention—in my experience. Is this whole idea of useful vs. useless thoughts just another layer of thought content? Thoughts are chaotic, like an onion with too many layers. It reminds me of the movie Inception—you wake up from one dream thinking it’s reality, only to realize it’s just another dream.

“Almost as if…” = thought content

Thank you for these reminders :)

Seeing-seer-seen? Or just seeing_seen?

Seeing_seen

who would you and others be if there could just be emotional feelings, without an imagined “you” that feels emotions caused by "others"?

No one, nothing—just emotional feelings arising.

Is there an inside and an outside of the body? What about the other objects (nature, animals, people)? Is there a "you" that feels separated from them or is that just another thought/concept?

When there’s no “I” there’s no inside outside of the body, no other objects.


One other thing that I want to share with you that is not unrelated to what we talked about in this post about acceptance, bypassing and “others”:
Decisions are still not easy. They’ve always been hard. Right now, there’s nothing within me that strongly pulls me toward one choice over another. It becomes problematic when I’m faced with a decision and 'others' expect me to have an opinion or make a choice. Not having a strong preference can come across as not caring enough or wasting life! Sometimes I wonder if it’s because I’m genuinely okay with any outcome, accepting things as they are, or if it’s a form of bypassing—being afraid to make a decision that could be wrong and lead to regret. In the moment of decision-making, the choices often feel the same, and I usually don’t have strong feelings about one over the other. I just pick something for small decisions, like what to eat for dinner. But for bigger decisions, like where to live or whether to change jobs, it’s much harder to just choose.
For example, when my wife asks me what I want or how I want to live my life, I honestly don’t have a strong opinion or feel rushed to make a decision. There’s a sense that if something needs to happen, it will. It doesn’t mean that I just wait for something, but I’m going with the flow, sometimes things are clear sometimes they are not and thoughts are coming and going, having conversation with each other, questions come up, and some of them get answered some not, almost like before but the difference is that I don’t fight the thoughts or feel pressured to have an immediate answer (I can't deny that compared to before I lost motivation for some of the things I used to do or at least the intensity is changed). However, when I express this, I sometimes sense irritation from her, as if I’m not caring or have given up on life.
When desire and ill will are seen through, is there still preference? Do pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings or sensations naturally arise as part of being alive? Or does any preference indicate that there’s still a sense of self at play? I’m still unclear whether it’s a natural bodily preference or if it’s rooted in desire and ill will.


Replying to posts is taking longer because I’m realizing more and more that, beyond my thoughts, I don’t actually know anything. It used to be much easier to find prepared, well-thought-out conceptual answers, but now I’m struggling to find any.

All the love,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

Wonderful looking!

Decisions are still not easy. They’ve always been hard. Right now, there’s nothing within me that strongly pulls me toward one choice over another. It becomes problematic when I’m faced with a decision and 'others' expect me to have an opinion or make a choice. Not having a strong preference can come across as not caring enough or wasting life! Sometimes I wonder if it’s because I’m genuinely okay with any outcome, accepting things as they are, or if it’s a form of bypassing—being afraid to make a decision that could be wrong and lead to regret. In the moment of decision-making, the choices often feel the same, and I usually don’t have strong feelings about one over the other. I just pick something for small decisions, like what to eat for dinner. But for bigger decisions, like where to live or whether to change jobs, it’s much harder to just choose.

Your struggle with decision-making and preferences touches on core concepts, particularly the idea of the self, desire, and acceptance.
You already know that the feeling of making choices is an illusion. “Decisions” arise spontaneously, influenced by a multitude of factors outside our control. Our actions and preferences stem from conditioning, past experiences, and the circumstances of the present moment. There's no separate "I" making the decision.
“Our actions” are often driven by desire (wanting things to be a certain way) and aversion (wanting things to not be a certain way). These are deeply rooted in the belief in a separate self that seeks to control and shape reality according to its preferences.
Contentment, as an alternative to the constant striving of desire and aversion, arises from accepting the present moment as it is, without needing it to be different. When desire and ill will are seen through, preferences naturally lose their grip. This doesn’t mean you become indifferent or apathetic. Instead, the “action” is from a place of flow and responsiveness to the needs of the moment, rather than from a fixed sense of self with predetermined wants and aversions – exactly as “what to eat for dinner”, no matter the complexity. What makes the decision “what to have for dinner” less important than “to change a job or not”? Inquire into that. Where is the importance/difficulty stemming from? A job is changed or not, but what is interesting is the story that goes on the side. Things happen despite the story, as we’ve seen, but the suffering (the problems) is in the story, so it's important to inquire into its validity.

Do pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings or sensations naturally arise as part of being alive? Or does any preference indicate that there’s still a sense of self at play? I’m still unclear whether it’s a natural bodily preference or if it’s rooted in desire and ill will.

Sensations arise naturally. Their labels however are the result of “memories” of previous experience. To label a sensation “unpleasant” is a precursor to aversion – that is why it is been labelled unpleasant, something to be avoided. The more you sit with a sensation that is labelled “unpleasant”, the more it turns into “neutral”. The result is that it's barely noticed that it's there, and therefore no aversion to it.

Paying attention to bodily sensations, distinguishing them from mental interpretations, is vital. While a bodily sensation might give rise to a preference, this preference is still a product of the mind, often fuelled by desire or aversion. Practice acceptance of whatever arises, including your uncertainty around preferences. Remember, "the moment doesn’t need anything". When a preference arises, question the thought. Is it true? Does it need to be acted upon? Is it helpful? What is the underlying need or fear driving this preference?

It might be helpful to distinguish between “wants” and “needs” and how they are felt. “Wants” are always future orientated, revolving around the belief that acquiring something external will improve our current state of being. They often stem from the illusion of lack, the belief that something is missing in the present moment - uncomfortable sensations. Examples are a new car, a holiday, a promotion, a new partner, social media validation, a particular food or drink. They also serve as distractions from deeper, unmet needs. You can see that as the difference between what the want is about and what is actually experienced right now (the sensations). Instead of addressing these needs (experiencing the sensations) directly, we may seek solace in acquiring material possessions, seeking validation from others, or engaging in other activities that provide temporary relief but ultimately fail to address the root cause of our discontent.
Needs, in contrast to wants, are grounded in the present moment and experienced through bodily sensations (direct correspondence). Examples are food and water, adequate sleep, physical activity, human connection and intimacy, mental and emotional well-being, a sense of safety and security Paying attention to these sensations, recognizing them as signals to what is required for optimal functioning is part of the flow.
To differentiate between a need and a want, may require honest self-reflection, questioning the motivations behind your desires and examining whether they are rooted in a genuine need or in a desire to soothe discomfort, seek external validation, etc. There is also a difference in how the sensations are experienced - wants might trigger feelings of excitement, anticipation, or a temporary sense of relief, while needs typically evoke a quieter sense of rightness, peace, or contentment. So, it is important to question the underlying beliefs that fuel the wants. What do you believe the want will provide? Is this belief rooted in reality or in a story you are telling yourself?

For example, when my wife asks me what I want or how I want to live my life, I honestly don’t have a strong opinion or feel rushed to make a decision. There’s a sense that if something needs to happen, it will. It doesn’t mean that I just wait for something, but I’m going with the flow, sometimes things are clear sometimes they are not and thoughts are coming and going, having conversation with each other, questions come up, and some of them get answered some not, almost like before but the difference is that I don’t fight the thoughts or feel pressured to have an immediate answer (I can't deny that compared to before I lost motivation for some of the things I used to do or at least the intensity is changed). However, when I express this, I sometimes sense irritation from her, as if I’m not caring or have given up on life.

Well, others’ opinions (thought content) just reflect what is happening in their life (their beliefs) and it has nothing to do with the experience “here”. It’s understandable that your wife might feel irritated when you express a lack of strong opinions or a sense of urgency about life decisions. From her perspective, it might appear as though you are not engaged or invested in your shared life. For you - you've been working through these beliefs - it’s possible that your reduced motivation in certain areas is part of a natural process of shedding old patterns that no longer serve you.
Thus, the disconnect can stem from differing understandings of how decisions are made and what constitutes a fulfilling life. While you (thought stream, how thoughts are organised) may be experiencing this shift in perceptions, your “wife” might not be. She still operates from the conventional view of a "doer" who makes choices and shapes their destiny. Her reaction might be a reflection of her own anxieties or insecurities. Understanding that this is not about you but about her might be helpful. Approaching the situation with compassion and understanding can help de-escalate conflict and facilitate a more open dialogue. While embracing the flow of life as it unfolds can bring a sense of peace, it’s also essential to find a balance that works within your relationships (still flow). This might involve communicating your needs and preferences more clearly, even if they don't feel as strong as before. It's about finding ways to honour your shift while still being an active and engaged participant in your shared life. Relationships thrive on open and honest communication. Sharing your experiences and insights with your wife, while also actively listening to her concerns, can help create a space of understanding and mutual respect. It's a journey of navigating different perspectives and finding ways to grow together.

What you can inquire into is the desire to please “others” and the fear and guilt of failing to do so. The lack of preference can sometimes stem from a fear of assertion or a tendency to prioritize others' needs over one’s own. It might be helpful to reflect on whether this pattern is playing a role in your interactions with your wife. Are you genuinely content with any outcome, or are you subconsciously avoiding potential conflict? And before you rush into therapy, this is not about the story (the history) but about experiencing the uncomfortable sensations that these situations evoke.
I hope this helps! Please let me know what rings true.

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hey Shafigh

How is life? How is the inquiry going?

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

What makes the decision “what to have for dinner” less important than “to change a job or not”?

What comes to mind is the impact of the decision: it affects more people and lasts longer. The consequences of whatever I choose for dinner will be over in a few hours and mainly affect me, but something like changing jobs lasts much longer and impacts not only me but those around me. However, this whole line of thinking doesn't hold the same weight as it used to. The idea of consequences—cause and effect—seems less convincing now. Long story short: it's just more thought content.

Where is the importance/difficulty stemming from?

Believing in a separate self that’s in control of making decisions, always striving to make the “right” one, can feel like an ongoing effort to manage life. It’s tied to the idea that there's a “me” responsible for the outcomes, constantly weighing options and trying to avoid mistakes.

When a preference arises, question the thought. Is it true? Does it need to be acted upon? Is it helpful? What is the underlying need or fear driving this preference?

I need to practice becoming familiar with sensations. As I mentioned before, I notice preferences in thoughts easily, but I struggle to connect with the underlying sensations. When I try to focus on them, they're quickly dismissed by thoughts that label them—heavy, tight, pressure—and then move on. It's like, "Okay, heavy chest, nothing more to it," and then my attention goes back to thoughts, which are endless and just keep going.

There is also a difference in how the sensations are experienced - wants might trigger feelings of excitement, anticipation, or a temporary sense of relief, while needs typically evoke a quieter sense of rightness, peace, or contentment.

I wish it were that clear for me. Sometimes, even the simple need to eat or drink water triggers feelings of excitement and anticipation.

What you can inquire into is the desire to please “others” and the fear and guilt of failing to do so.

The whole question about “others” stems from noticing this discomfort and a sense of inauthenticity when interacting with them. I’ve noticed that I act and feel differently when engaging with “others,” almost as if an external force is influencing my internal flow of thoughts and emotions, like the desire to please or the fear of guilt. And afterward, it doesn’t feel good.

Are you genuinely content with any outcome, or are you subconsciously avoiding potential conflict?

This same question came to mind when we talked about bypassing and true acceptance. In a few instances where I remembered to inquire, I noticed how uncomfortable it feels to admit that I don’t know. Knowing or having answers is so highly valued that it becomes hard enough to accept not knowing for myself, let alone admitting it to others.

When I look more closely, I notice different situations arise:

1. There’s genuinely no preference, and I’m totally okay with any outcome.
2. There’s a preference, but I recognize it as desire or aversion and “decide” not to act on it.
3. There’s a preference, but I’m unsure whether it’s a natural bodily need or just the mind’s desire and aversion, which again leads to not acting on it.
4. There isn’t a strong preference, and I’m unsure where it’s coming from or can’t justify it. Because I don’t have a solid reason for it, I end up not expressing it and just letting things unfold.

There’s also the element of fear about having a preference that goes against what’s conventional or accepted by others (again seeing “others” as an entity).

Before this whole inquiry, I had a tendency to prioritize others’ needs over my own. Now, it feels like I’ve added another layer, where I label any of my preferences as “bad” or as a sign of selfing, which makes it harder. At the same time, while I’m finding it easier to accept situations as they are, I also think there’s an element of bypassing happening.

I hope this helps! Please let me know what rings true.

Your posts, each sentence, goes deeper than the last. I’m learning a new language—an alternative way of seeing what’s happening—an experience beyond the lens of thoughts and beliefs. It feels similar to our daily practice of describing events, like drinking a cup of coffee or talking to a friend. This is becoming more like a scientific experiment, observing without assumptions or stories, and it’s fascinating actually to look at things this way.

All the love,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

What comes to mind is the impact of the decision: it affects more people and lasts longer. The consequences of whatever I choose for dinner will be over in a few hours and mainly affect me, but something like changing jobs lasts much longer and impacts not only me but those around me. However, this whole line of thinking doesn't hold the same weight as it used to. The idea of consequences—cause and effect—seems less convincing now. Long story short: it's just more thought content.

You've instinctively framed the importance of decisions in terms of their perceived impact and duration. This approach is often reinforced by societal norms and personal values. However, let’s inquire into the solidity of these frameworks.
The idea that a job change lasts longer and therefore holds more weight than a dinner choice relies on a linear conception of time. We’ve already seen that our experience of time is subjective, ultimately a mental construct. The idea that a job change affects more people is also a projection based on assumptions (stories) about relationships.
Cause and effect, while a useful framework for navigating the world, are ultimately mental constructs layered onto the flow of experience. This doesn't mean that actions don't have consequences, but rather that our understanding of those consequences is filtered through the lens of thought. Our beliefs, interpretations, and assumptions about cause and effect arise from thought, not from some inherent truth about reality.
It is important to inquire into all of these fixed frameworks vs DE, which will help a shift from a future-oriented, consequence-driven mindset to one that is grounded in the present moment - what is here right now. This doesn't negate planning or considering potential outcomes, but rather invites a deeper understanding of how those considerations are arising and influencing our choices, rather than just reacting from habitual patterns of thought and emotion.
The freedom comes from accepting the uncertainty of life and letting go of the need for control or predictability. It also involves responding to situations from a place of authenticity, allowing actions to flow from a deeper understanding of reality.

I need to practice becoming familiar with sensations. As I mentioned before, I notice preferences in thoughts easily, but I struggle to connect with the underlying sensations. When I try to focus on them, they're quickly dismissed by thoughts that label them—heavy, tight, pressure—and then move on. It's like, "Okay, heavy chest, nothing more to it," and then my attention goes back to thoughts, which are endless and just keep going.

This tendency to label and move on is how the mind constructs our reality. The mind seeks to make sense of experience by attaching labels and creating narratives, often at the expense of fully experiencing the raw sensations themselves. Sensations are constantly changing, arising and passing away in a flow of experience. The mind's tendency to label and categorize creates an illusion of solidity, obscuring the dynamic nature of sensations. What you can do is as you become aware of a sensation, simply mentally note it— "pressure," "tingling," "warmth"—without elaborating or creating a story around it. This helps to train the mind to observe sensations without getting carried away by thoughts. When you notice yourself labelling a sensation, pause and investigate the label itself. Does the sensation itself inherently contain the quality described by the label? This questioning helps to deconstruct the mind's automatic interpretations. Instead of dismissing a sensation after labelling it, try to stay with it for a longer period. Go back to sensations again and again. Notice their qualities, how they change over time, their intensity, and their location in the body. This practice helps to cultivate a deeper familiarity with the nuances of sensation. It is exactly like the cup of coffee exercise - the more you do it, the easier it becomes to notice what is really happening.

You mention experiencing a “heavy chest, which you quickly label and dismiss”. This points to an distinction already between sensations and emotions. Sensations are the raw, physical experiences in the body, labelled pressure, tightness, or warmth. Emotions, on the other hand, “arise” when thoughts and labels are added to these sensations.
For example, the sensation of a heavy chest might be labelled as "sadness" or "anxiety," transforming it into an emotional experience. By becoming more aware of the sensations themselves, you can gain insight into the formation of emotions and potentially loosen their grip.
Noticing sensations is not always easy. The mind is highly skilled at distraction and will often try to pull your attention back to thoughts. Don't get discouraged if your mind do that or if you find it difficult to stay with sensations. Gently guide your attention back to the body each time it strays. If you find it overwhelming to focus on the entire body, start with a specific area, such as your hands or feet. Gradually expand as you become more comfortable. Most importantly, approach this exploration with a sense of curiosity and openness - like an explorer. Rather than striving for a specific outcome, simply observe what arises without judgment. In time, this will help cultivate a greater sense of presence in the current moment and less preoccupation with the past and future. Instead of being swept away by intense emotions, you can learn to observe them with more equanimity. As you loosen the grip of thought and become more present in your body, you may experience a greater sense of freedom and joy in your daily life. The simple act of being present with your senses can become a source of profound contentment. You can probably see the resemblence with meditation which is why it is so wildly used :)

The whole question about “others” stems from noticing this discomfort and a sense of inauthenticity when interacting with them. I’ve noticed that I act and feel differently when engaging with “others,” almost as if an external force is influencing my internal flow of thoughts and emotions, like the desire to please or the fear of guilt. And afterward, it doesn’t feel good.

What is doing the interaction (or interaction is happening?)? Your use of the term "others" points to a sense of separation between yourself and those you interact with.
Remember, the “world” and everything in “it” is “your” perception – a conditioned story layered/projected over what IS (sensations, sounds, smells, colours, and tastes). This “world” is shaped by our beliefs, past experiences, and emotional patterns, creating a distorted reflection of reality rather than an objective view. True contact with “others” is impossible because we're only ever interacting with our projections of them/perceptions. These projections are filtered through our own thoughts and feelings, creating a barrier to seeing what really is. So when you talk about this “external force”, what really lies behind it? What makes it “external” vs “internal”?

The sense of inauthenticity you describe suggests a discrepancy between the idea of your genuine “self” and the “self” you present in social situations (patterns). The "should" self arises from a deep-seated belief that we (THIS) are not okay as we are. This belief fuels a constant striving to be different, to meet external expectations, and to avoid negative judgments. It keeps us trapped in a cycle of seeking approval and avoiding disapproval, leading to suffering and a diminished sense of freedom. It boils down to identification with a story of not being good enough, of guilt and shame.
By recognizing the “subjective” nature of our perception, we can begin to see through the distortions created by our thoughts and emotions. This deconstruction allows for a more open approach to interactions, one that is less driven by reactivity and projection. Instead of remembering old pattern (how we are in the world), shift your focus from the past to the present moment. This shift in attention allows us to experience interactions with greater clarity and presence, without the baggage of preconceived notions or anxieties about potential outcomes. How are these interactions happening right now, what is here and what is not?
By recognizing and accepting the imperfections and vulnerabilities (potential for suffering) of these patterns, we create a foundation for genuine connection with “others”/the flow. Always be on the look out for that which is been protected! What is here to be guilty or shameful, or fearful? There are sensations but what in them suggest that they are “guilt”, “shame”, or “fear”? The more you stay with the sensations the more you see what is really happening – not the usual story.

This same question came to mind when we talked about bypassing and true acceptance. In a few instances where I remembered to inquire, I noticed how uncomfortable it feels to admit that I don’t know. Knowing or having answers is so highly valued that it becomes hard enough to accept not knowing for myself, let alone admitting it to others.

When I look more closely, I notice different situations arise:

1. There’s genuinely no preference, and I’m totally okay with any outcome.
2. There’s a preference, but I recognize it as desire or aversion and “decide” not to act on it.
3. There’s a preference, but I’m unsure whether it’s a natural bodily need or just the mind’s desire and aversion, which again leads to not acting on it.
4. There isn’t a strong preference, and I’m unsure where it’s coming from or can’t justify it. Because I don’t have a solid reason for it, I end up not expressing it and just letting things unfold.

There’s also the element of fear about having a preference that goes against what’s conventional or accepted by others (again seeing “others” as an entity).

Before this whole inquiry, I had a tendency to prioritize others’ needs over my own. Now, it feels like I’ve added another layer, where I label any of my preferences as “bad” or as a sign of selfing, which makes it harder. At the same time, while I’m finding it easier to accept situations as they are, I also think there’s an element of bypassing happening.

Your four categories of preferences highlight the spectrum of experiences you encounter, from clear non-preference to ambiguous or unjustified preferences. This reflects the difficulty of navigating desires and discerning between genuine needs and conditioned wants.
Genuine needs arise from the body's natural requirements and conditioned wants stem from the mind's desires and aversions. This distinction is crucial in determining which preferences to act upon and which to observe with detachment. Look again through my previous reply for more clarity on the subject.
Your perception of "others" as an entity that dictates acceptable preferences highlights the concept of projection discussed above. This perception stems from the illusion of separation and the tendency to attribute “external” authority to the judgments and expectations of society. You've identified a shift in your behaviour, moving from prioritizing others' needs to labelling your own preferences as "bad" or a sign of "selfing", which is not very helpful. That is why I keep saying “without judgement”. There is no good or bad – just true or wrong.
True acceptance involves acknowledging and allowing whatever arises in experience without resistance or judgment. Bypassing, on the other hand, involves suppressing or avoiding difficult emotions or experiences, often under the disguise of spiritual ideas. So again and again – focus on the sensations. By learning no notice them, you can discern between genuine bodily needs and mental desires and aversions, providing clarity in “navigating” preferences. Inquire into the "why" behind reactions, try to understand the underlying motivations and beliefs that drive this behaviour. What is really behind this preference? This helps to uncover the roots of fear and aversion associated with expressing preferences. What you have for lunch is simple because it appears out of necessity. Changing your job is a bit more complicated because of all of the aversions behind it – fear, guilt, shame…You have not just one and that makes “decision” difficult. Things happen anyway but the story that goes on the side needs to be seen/checked so it can be released.

The process of disentangling preferences, wants and needs, and the fear of "selfing" is ongoing. By working on looking, and compassion (no judgement), you can learn to navigate this terrain with greater clarity and freedom.

Your posts, each sentence, goes deeper than the last. I’m learning a new language—an alternative way of seeing what’s happening—an experience beyond the lens of thoughts and beliefs. It feels similar to our daily practice of describing events, like drinking a cup of coffee or talking to a friend. This is becoming more like a scientific experiment, observing without assumptions or stories, and it’s fascinating actually to look at things this way.

I’m very happy to accompany you through this! Remember, true freedom lies in transcending the limitations (enslaving) of language and thought, and enjoying the richness and immediacy of direct experience.

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

This doesn't mean that actions don't have consequences, but rather that our understanding of those consequences is filtered through the lens of thought.

Yes, exactly! Our understanding of consequences and how they relate to one another is really just a guess, based on a very limited set of assumed parameters that we take to be true.

Does the sensation itself inherently contain the quality described by the label?

No, there’s no word to describe the sensation. It’s a mystery—dynamic, alive, ever-changing, and wordless energy.

What is doing the interaction (or interaction is happening?)

Interaction happens, but there’s no "I" controlling it.

Your use of the term "others" points to a sense of separation between yourself and those you interact with.

Yes, the sense of separation has become lighter, but it's still there.

So when you talk about this “external force”, what really lies behind it? What makes it “external” vs “internal”?

An imagined separate self with boundaries. I used to get frustrated when I noticed these traces of selfing, but now I feel a kind of excitement when I find them. It gives me the chance to examine them as many times as needed :)

The "should" self arises from a deep-seated belief that we (THIS) are not okay as we are. It boils down to identification with a story of not being good enough, of guilt and shame.

Yes, feeling like it's not enough because of not being good enough—because of guilt and shame stories. As a result, there's a desire to escape this moment, to move on to the next, searching for enlightenment or a new belief. Thinking that if I can just find that understanding, that secret teaching, then I can fix it and stop feeling these emotions.

How are these interactions happening right now, what is here and what is not?

This belief in a persistent entity over time is like a train with hundreds of wagons attached, with “I” at the front. Instead of just looking at what's here now, there's a need to go back and check each wagon—past events, history—before reaching the front and interacting.

Always be on the look out for that which is been protected! What is here to be guilty or shameful, or fearful? There are sensations but what in them suggest that they are “guilt”, “shame”, or “fear”? 

I’m going to try this in my interactions. Looking back, I can see how I’ve wanted to appear smart, calm, and put-together—just labels, stories, and patterns. Maybe admitting to these during a conversation and seeing what happens could be a way to face the fear. It’s both tempting and scary.

What is really behind this preference?

My wife wasn’t feeling well physically, and that led to her feeling emotionally low. I noticed my urge to do something, thinking, "This is wrong." So, I looked at what was behind this urge:
Not wanting to feel like something is wrong. I thought I’d done something wrong or could have prevented this situation. Guilt and shame. If only I were better. Believing I’m in control, that I’m managing life—it’s up to me. If I’m feeling these emotions, something must be wrong, or I wouldn’t feel them. There’s a right way to live life, and I’m on the wrong side of it. I need to control, to be better.
Contraction in the stomach, tightness around the eyes, pressure in the head, energy moving through the body. The thought, this is not okay, do something. Time feels like it’s running out. You’re letting her down, making a mistake. This is not right. What am I missing? Life shouldn’t feel this way. My history plays out—decisions I’ve made, what I could have done differently. This is not working. If this doesn’t work and I still feel like this, then nothing is left. Ugh, this is embarrassing. Am I just pretending? Has anything really changed? I don’t want to exist. I’m tired. Take it all away; I just want to hide.
Pressure in my head, chest, and shoulders—tightness. Beyond the labels, these sensations simply exist without being good or bad. But one thought persists: You can’t live without labels. This is temporary. You’ll have to return to "reality" where there are labels, problems, responsibilities, right and wrong. And I can’t seem to shake that one off.

Acceptance—being perfectly okay with everything—still feels like a mental concept or at least not the default state. The head is saying, “Oh, I know there's no self” and yet the body is acting like it didn’t get the message. It’s saying, “I’m still somebody, and I’ve got all these anxious thoughts and wants and desires”. I can get there easier, but only after navigating the minefield of thoughts, which usually triggers an explosion of uncomfortable feelings. The difference is that before it was inaccessible but now I know it exists.

All the love,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

Yes, feeling like it's not enough because of not being good enough—because of guilt and shame stories. As a result, there's a desire to escape this moment, to move on to the next, searching for enlightenment or a new belief. Thinking that if I can just find that understanding, that secret teaching, then I can fix it and stop feeling these emotions.

You should know by now that no knowledge can solve “your problems”, they can only be dissolved – seen for they actually are so in a way transformed into “no problems” :)
How about you giving these “emotions” a chance to be felt, instead of constantly avoiding them?

This belief in a persistent entity over time is like a train with hundreds of wagons attached, with “I” at the front. Instead of just looking at what's here now, there's a need to go back and check each wagon—past events, history—before reaching the front and interacting.

There is nothing new in these thoughts – they’ve been recycled and experienced forever. There are no solutions there, just more problem. How about trying something new? How about looking with “fresh eyes” at what is actually happening instead of copying and pasting old patterns? The more you try to do it the more it will happen. Every time there is a strong reaction, even if it is after the fact, have a look. What is really happening? There are sensations, there is a parallel story. Are they a match? What links them together?

I’m going to try this in my interactions. Looking back, I can see how I’ve wanted to appear smart, calm, and put-together—just labels, stories, and patterns. Maybe admitting to these during a conversation and seeing what happens could be a way to face the fear. It’s both tempting and scary.

Admitting to these labels and observing the reactions could indeed be a way to expose the fear and potentially dismantle its hold on you. Keep on questioning assumptions and beliefs about yourself and the “world”. Recognising that the desire to project a certain image is based on "just labels, stories, and patterns" is a step forward. Our perception of the world is created through our thoughts, beliefs, and past experiences. By admitting to your desire to appear a certain way, you're acknowledging the existence of this “perceived world” and you start to develop the courage to act form a place with no attachment to these labels and patterns. Just don’t forget – be kind and curious! Notice any physical sensations associated with your fear, such as tension or tightness – they can provide valuable insights into its nature and intensity. Most importantly, just stay with them, see that they are not that scary and painful. Breathe!
Remember, the aim is not to achieve a particular outcome or force a change in yourself or others. The true value lies in the process of honest self-reflection, mindful observation, and courageous experimentation (staying, not avoiding the sensations). By admitting to your vulnerabilities and observing what unfolds without judgment, you may discover new insights into “yourself” and the nature of your interactions.

My wife wasn’t feeling well physically, and that led to her feeling emotionally low. I noticed my urge to do something, thinking, "This is wrong." So, I looked at what was behind this urge:
Not wanting to feel like something is wrong. I thought I’d done something wrong or could have prevented this situation. Guilt and shame. If only I were better. Believing I’m in control, that I’m managing life—it’s up to me. If I’m feeling these emotions, something must be wrong, or I wouldn’t feel them. There’s a right way to live life, and I’m on the wrong side of it. I need to control, to be better.
Contraction in the stomach, tightness around the eyes, pressure in the head, energy moving through the body. The thought, this is not okay, do something. Time feels like it’s running out. You’re letting her down, making a mistake. This is not right. What am I missing? Life shouldn’t feel this way. My history plays out—decisions I’ve made, what I could have done differently. This is not working. If this doesn’t work and I still feel like this, then nothing is left. Ugh, this is embarrassing. Am I just pretending? Has anything really changed? I don’t want to exist. I’m tired. Take it all away; I just want to hide.
Pressure in my head, chest, and shoulders—tightness. Beyond the labels, these sensations simply exist without being good or bad. But one thought persists: You can’t live without labels. This is temporary. You’ll have to return to "reality" where there are labels, problems, responsibilities, right and wrong. And I can’t seem to shake that one off.

There is a resistance to accepting the present moment as it is. This resistance can manifest as an urge to change or fix a situation, particularly when faced with uncomfortable emotions or circumstances. Well can you??? Your initial thought, "This is wrong," and the subsequent urge to "do something" demonstrate this resistance. The desire and belief that you can control or manage life, leads to feelings of guilt, shame, and inadequacy when things deviate from the expectations. The feeling of something being wrong, the belief that you should have done something differently, and the perception that there's a right way to live life all point to underlying beliefs about control, responsibility, and self-worth. These beliefs shape your interpretation of the situation and trigger emotional and physical responses. Sensations, while providing valuable information, are not inherently good or bad. The “contraction in your stomach, tightness around your eyes, pressure in your head, and energy moving through your body” are simply physical sensations. Attaching labels and stories to these sensations, such as "this is not okay" or "you're letting her down," amplifies the discomfort with these sensations and perpetuates the cycle of reactivity. Simply observing these sensations without judgment can help to break the cycle of reactivity.
You acknowledge that beyond the labels, the sensations simply exist. This recognition is a crucial step. However, the persistent thought that you can't live without labels highlights the deeply ingrained nature of this pattern. Keep on challenging the perceived necessity of labels and recognizing their limitations! This is the only way to freedom from their tyranny. Yes, labels are here, but check at least how further away are they from DE – there are labels and LABLES.
The feeling of being in control is a mental construct, not a reflection of reality. Your belief that "it's up to me" and that life "shouldn't feel this way" reflects this illusion of control. What makes you in charge of your wife’s life? How exactly do you know that this is not how it is supposed to go (the perfection of this moment)? You don’t! Even on the “surface” level, your wife’s suffering might be a crucial part in her realisation of no self, or at least having insights into old beliefs of reality, healing previous trauma. Stop trying to change the present, past and future, you simply can’t anyway! What will happen will happen – in a way it has already happened. Instead try surrendering to the present moment, with its inherent uncertainty and lack of absolute control. You can’t help her with your fear, guilt, shame and anger, you can only help her with your love and support. Instead be more present with her in her current state - simply listening attentively and validating her feelings can be incredibly supportive. Attempting to fix your wife's emotional state can invalidate her experience and reinforce the idea that her feelings are wrong or need to be changed. This can lead to her feeling unheard and misunderstood, potentially exacerbating her emotional suffering. Instead of getting caught up in your own thoughts, stories, and reactions, focus on being fully present with your wife. This means paying attention to her words, body language, and emotional cues, and responding with empathy and understanding. This kind of presence can be deeply comforting and reassuring, allowing her to feel seen and supported without the pressure of needing to change.

Also, your wife's experience of feeling unwell is unique to her and influenced by her thoughts, beliefs, and past experiences (in a similar way to your perceptions). Rather than imposing your own interpretations or solutions, encourage her to explore her experience and express her feelings without judgment. You can gently encourage your wife to explore her experience. Ask her something like "What are you feeling right now?" or "What's going on in your body?"
Remember, supporting your wife involves being present, compassionate, and non-judgmental. Focus on creating a safe space for her to express her feelings and explore her experience without the pressure of needing to change or fix anything. This approach can foster deeper connection and understanding, allowing both of you to navigate difficult emotions with greater ease and resilience.

Back to “you”…You clearly recognise the strategies for maintaining control and avoiding discomfort. By observing sensations without judgment, questioning underlying beliefs, and accepting the present moment as it is, you can move towards greater freedom from old patterns and experience greater peace in the face of life's challenges.

Acceptance—being perfectly okay with everything—still feels like a mental concept or at least not the default state. The head is saying, “Oh, I know there's no self” and yet the body is acting like it didn’t get the message. It’s saying, “I’m still somebody, and I’ve got all these anxious thoughts and wants and desires”. I can get there easier, but only after navigating the minefield of thoughts, which usually triggers an explosion of uncomfortable feelings. The difference is that before it was inaccessible but now I know it exists.

Realising the illusion of self is an initial step, but fully embodying this understanding takes time and ongoing looking. Deeply ingrained habits and conditioning continue to influence our experience even after profound insights. It is a process of unlearning and relearning. That is why I keep emphasising the significance of sensations. Your experience of navigating a "minefield of thoughts" that trigger "explosions of uncomfortable feelings" underscores that. Rather than trying to suppress or ignore these sensations, consciously allow and observe them without judgment. This is key to their eventual dissolution/transformation. Are you the owner (the thinker) of these thoughts, wants and desires, or they simply appear? Is there a match between what is happening in the body and the thoughts? Can you be in an “anxious” body? Acceptance is not something that you do but something that happens when sensations are not tried to be avoided but “allowed” to be.
Frustration with the seeming resistance is understandable, but approaching the process with gentleness and understanding can facilitate smoother integration. It's a gradual process of the insights gradually permeating your entire being.
When thoughts and feelings arise, shift your attention to the immediate sensations and experiences. This practice of grounding yourself in the present moment can help to disentangle from the stories and labels that fuel the sense of self. The sense of self "cannot be found," yet "it still feels like there is one." This cognitive dissonance can create a sense of being stuck, but it's often a sign of being on the cusp of a significant shift.
The Buddhist concept of Anatta (no-self) does not equate to non-existence. Rather, it points to the absence of a fixed, unchanging self or entity. This doesn't deny the reality of thoughts, feelings, or experiences; it simply reframes them as impermanent and impersonal processes rather than defining characteristics of a "self." Your experience highlights the importance of integrating intellectual understanding with embodied knowing. Consistent looking and compassionate acceptance of the insights can help bridge this gap, allowing the truth of "no-self" to permeate your entire being.
I hope this helps

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

How about you giving these “emotions” a chance to be felt, instead of constantly avoiding them?

Lately, I’ve been focusing on feeling emotions and getting to the underlying sensations without labeling them. Sometimes I forget, sometimes I remember but it feels overwhelming, and other times I’m able to stay with the sensation and rest in it as much as possible.

How about trying something new? How about looking with “fresh eyes” at what is actually happening instead of copying and pasting old patterns?

Thoughts are tricky to navigate right now. They have a strong pull, and in a blink, I find myself back in old patterns. But at least now, I can see the difference.

Also, your wife's experience of feeling unwell is unique to her and influenced by her thoughts, beliefs, and past experiences (in a similar way to your perceptions). Rather than imposing your own interpretations or solutions, encourage her to explore her experience and express her feelings without judgment. You can gently encourage your wife to explore her experience. Ask her something like "What are you feeling right now?" or "What's going on in your body?"
Remember, supporting your wife involves being present, compassionate, and non-judgmental. Focus on creating a safe space for her to express her feelings and explore her experience without the pressure of needing to change or fix anything. This approach can foster deeper connection and understanding, allowing both of you to navigate difficult emotions with greater ease and resilience.

You're absolutely right about my projection onto her, making it about myself instead of just being present for her. I get so caught up in my own thoughts, emotions, and stories that I struggle to be fully present. I'm afraid to simply ask her, "What are you feeling right now?" or "What's going on?" because if she says something I can't fix, then what? I don’t want to feel helpless. It always ends up being about me, doesn’t it?

The feeling of being in control is a mental construct, not a reflection of reality. Your belief that "it's up to me" and that life "shouldn't feel this way" reflects this illusion of control. What makes you in charge of your wife’s life? How exactly do you know that this is not how it is supposed to go (the perfection of this moment)?

I don’t know what’s supposed to happen, what’s good for her or for me. I’ve seen this pattern thousands of times, yet the thoughts still come up, insisting this is the way. Even when I question whether I really know what’s good, more thoughts arise, arguing with each other, comparing scenarios—what might happen, what happened before, and so on.

You can’t help her with your fear, guilt, shame and anger, you can only help her with your love and support. Instead be more present with her in her current state - simply listening attentively and validating her feelings can be incredibly supportive. Attempting to fix your wife's emotional state can invalidate her experience and reinforce the idea that her feelings are wrong or need to be changed. This can lead to her feeling unheard and misunderstood, potentially exacerbating her emotional suffering. Instead of getting caught up in your own thoughts, stories, and reactions, focus on being fully present with your wife. This means paying attention to her words, body language, and emotional cues, and responding with empathy and understanding. This kind of presence can be deeply comforting and reassuring, allowing her to feel seen and supported without the pressure of needing to change.

Thank you. I don’t know why there’s still a preference to get caught up in thoughts and the illusion of control, even though I’ve experienced the pain of it so many times.

Are you the owner (the thinker) of these thoughts, wants and desires, or they simply appear? Is there a match between what is happening in the body and the thoughts?

The sense of an owner is just another thought. There’s no real match between what’s happening and the thoughts about it.

Can you be in an “anxious” body?

Thoughts say “no” because an “anxious” body feels “bad, wrong, or like a mistake.” But thoughts are just stories; they have no basis in reality and no control over decision-making.

Last week, I noticed changes in my thought patterns, though I’m not sure where they came from. Some echoed the pointers you mentioned before—concepts I understood mentally, but connecting them with direct experience felt different. I wrote them down as they came up and will paste them here in the same order so you can see where I’m at:

Today, something interesting happened. I always believed that thoughts were reporting to me—that even after seeing through the illusion of self, some thoughts were still useful, and it was up to me to pay attention to them, to cooperate with life and make things happen. Some thoughts felt important, like I had to keep them at the center of my attention or do something about them, while others could be ignored.
But today, for some reason, I “decided”: no, I’m not going to pay attention to these thoughts. I “chose” to ignore them, despite feeling scared—what if this thought is actually useful, and I’ll regret it? But I stuck with my decision.
And, interestingly enough, nothing happened! The thought kept coming, I didn’t stop thinking about it, and I didn’t lose anything meaningful. In fact, I was more productive and didn’t get stuck in the usual mental loops.
It’s just another illusion—until you actually do something about it, it doesn’t go away, no matter how much you speculate or intellectually understand it. The belief that I have control over which thoughts I choose to pay attention to is an absolute illusion. There’s a lightness to see thoughts just come, stay, and go on their own, without anyone in the center to choose or direct them.

“I” can’t find anything outside of thoughts. Anything I talk about, describe, or notice exists only in thought. There’s no understanding without thoughts; even when I notice sensations, they’re labeled and understood through thoughts. There’s no “I” outside of thought—either I’m aware, which exists as a thought, or I’m not there, in which case there’s no one to report it. It’s hard to put into words.

Do plants, trees, and vegetables make decisions? Do they choose to grow or survive? And what about animals? I’ve always seen decision-making as evidence of a self—a separate entity capable of making choices: decision-making → decision maker → separate self. But why believe “I” am making decisions, while plants and animals aren’t? From the outside, we all react, strive to survive, grow, eat, and so on. I can’t claim that human life is inherently more complex; documentaries reveal the intricate, competitive lives of plants. There’s action and reaction—this applies to me, too. Something happens, and I respond based on my genes, upbringing, and patterns. The rest is just a story. Choices may be evaluated, sure—but who’s to say that doesn’t happen for plants or animals too? And why would this process of evaluating choices prove a separate self? I’m running out of reasons to give this separate self the benefit of the doubt.

Another thought began last night as I went to bed and carried through the night into this morning: how many ups and downs I experience in a single day—feeling sad, bored, stressed, excited, happy. Even if I sit alone in a room, eyes closed, with no interaction for just five minutes, I still go through waves of different emotions. The expectation to feel “good” all day, along with the illusion of control over it, feels both laughable and a bit sad. In this complex world of endless interactions with people, objects, and events, we still believe we can plan and control our way to feeling good.

Last night, in that space between sleep and wakefulness, it struck me—just as we see dreams as wild and unpredictable, what makes us think the waking state is predictable? Isn’t it essentially the same? We have no idea what’s going to happen, how we’ll feel, what thoughts will arise, where we’ll go, or who we’ll meet. There’s no difference; it’s just an illusion that we know what’s coming. This morning, I felt a sense of ease with this unpredictability and the rise of thoughts, emotions, even planning, as just part of life unfolding without knowing where it’s headed. It’s simply being along for the ride.


I feel uncertain about thoughts. I know they have no basis in reality—just a narrative disconnected from what’s actually happening. Yet they’re still part of this experience; I can’t deny that, even knowing that they arise randomly or out of my control, they’re sometimes useful and practical. For example, when planning a trip, thoughts or thinking process help with decisions about where to go, when to go, comparing options, buying tickets, and so on. Resisting or labeling them as useless or negative doesn’t help; it’s just another thought. I find myself in a place where I can’t have an opinion without knowing it’s not true. It’s a strange spot—even now, I know that anything I write here isn’t Truth, yet it’s still part of what’s happening.
Body movements and actions feel simpler since they happen without needing labels or concepts. But thinking and talking feel different, especially since they’re sometimes necessary for practical purposes like planning or work. For instance, when you asked, “Can you be in an anxious body?”—is there any point in looking for an answer within the content of thoughts, or should thoughts be ignored altogether? Because I can only answer this question from within thoughts.
I’m not sure if I’m overcomplicating things or if thought has a different nature that just needs more space and time to get used to.


I can’t express how grateful I am that the “flow of life made” this interaction with you possible.

All the love,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

It gives me so much joy to read your reply!

Lately, I’ve been focusing on feeling emotions and getting to the underlying sensations without labeling them. Sometimes I forget, sometimes I remember but it feels overwhelming, and other times I’m able to stay with the sensation and rest in it as much as possible.

That is the way :)

Thoughts are tricky to navigate right now. They have a strong pull, and in a blink, I find myself back in old patterns. But at least now, I can see the difference.

Ok I see an assumption here that hasn’t been challenged. The next time there is an old pattern at play, pay attention to that “pull”. Where exactly is it felt in the body? I am not talking about the reaction and the sensations following the thought. I am talking to a sensation prior to all of that. Observe carefully. Maybe even try to “cause” it by repeating the thought over and over again. For example imagine a situation that usually “triggers” you the most and makes you spiral out of control. Is there an actual button, or a lever, a hook, or anything that causes the pull? How is it experienced in the body? What is there when you look? Don’t just bypass it by saying there is nothing – really look! What makes a thought into a want or an aversion?

I don’t know what’s supposed to happen, what’s good for her or for me. I’ve seen this pattern thousands of times, yet the thoughts still come up, insisting this is the way. Even when I question whether I really know what’s good, more thoughts arise, arguing with each other, comparing scenarios—what might happen, what happened before, and so on.

That is what thoughts do, nothing new here…What happens to a thought that is not thought?

I'm afraid to simply ask her, "What are you feeling right now?" or "What's going on?" because if she says something I can't fix, then what? I don’t want to feel helpless. It always ends up being about me, doesn’t it?

I hear your deep concern. It must be heart-breaking to witness her pain and feel helpless.
But who made you her fixer, in charge of her well-being? What about just being present, a shoulder to cry on if need be? How could we turn "I can't do anything to help" around? One possibility might be: "I can do something to help."
Can you find specific examples of how that might be true, like how your presence, love, or small acts of care already make a difference? How does that feel?

I feel uncertain about thoughts. I know they have no basis in reality—just a narrative disconnected from what’s actually happening. Yet they’re still part of this experience; I can’t deny that, even knowing that they arise randomly or out of my control, they’re sometimes useful and practical. For example, when planning a trip, thoughts or thinking process help with decisions about where to go, when to go, comparing options, buying tickets, and so on. Resisting or labeling them as useless or negative doesn’t help; it’s just another thought. I find myself in a place where I can’t have an opinion without knowing it’s not true. It’s a strange spot—even now, I know that anything I write here isn’t Truth, yet it’s still part of what’s happening.

You're grappling with a common paradox: recognizing that thoughts are not inherently "true" or reflective of ultimate reality, yet acknowledging their undeniable presence and practical utility in daily life.
Thoughts, while useful for communication and practical tasks, can create a layer of abstraction that distances us from the immediacy of our experience. They know nothing whatsoever about reality. You correctly point out that thoughts are essential for tasks like planning a trip or engaging in work. This is not about completely abandoning thought but rather about cultivating a discerning mindfulness of its nature and limitations.

Thoughts can be valuable tools for engaging with the world, as long as we maintain a clear understanding of their conventional, rather than absolute, nature. The key lies in embracing the paradox of thought—accepting its presence and utility while simultaneously recognizing its limitations and potential to create illusions. Thoughts are not to be negated or denied but rather to be seen as impermanent, impersonal mental events that arise and pass away.

Body movements and actions feel simpler since they happen without needing labels or concepts. But thinking and talking feel different, especially since they’re sometimes necessary for practical purposes like planning or work. For instance, when you asked, “Can you be in an anxious body?”—is there any point in looking for an answer within the content of thoughts, or should thoughts be ignored altogether? Because I can only answer this question from within thoughts.
I’m not sure if I’m overcomplicating things or if thought has a different nature that just needs more space and time to get used to.

You ask, "Can you be in an anxious body?" and ponder whether seeking an answer through thought is fruitful. While intellectual analysis can be helpful to a degree, the most potent approach involves shifting attention to the direct experience of the body. Negative emotions often manifest as "sensory experiences" in the body, with thoughts attaching themselves to these sensations and creating a narrative of fear or anxiety. By cultivating a mindfulness of bodily sensations, we can disentangle ourselves from the grip of anxious thoughts. In a way the story self-corrects. I think I used that analogy before - mind is freed from being the horrible master (the incompetent manager), to actually being a useful servant ( a good PA). It becomes part of the flow instead of causing ripples.
"Habitual reactive patterns" can create a sense of urgency and panic, urging us to respond in familiar ways even when those responses are ultimately unhelpful. However, by repeatedly recognizing these patterns and disengaging from them, we can gradually weaken their hold and create space for a more mindful and responsive way of being. Rather than accepting thoughts as facts, inquire into their validity. Ask yourself: Is this thought true? Is it helpful? Where is the evidence to support it? The journey of understanding thought is a process of continual exploration and refinement (self-oranisation). Ultimately, the “path” unfolds through direct experience, patient inquiry, and a willingness to embrace the inherent paradox of thought's presence and emptiness. Clinging to thoughts as truth is indeed a deeply ingrained habit, often reinforced by societal conditioning and language.

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

Everything is perfect because it can’t be any other way

Doesn’t "everything" include thoughts, aversion, desire, pain, suffering, confusion, and even the feeling of getting lost in thoughts? It includes me wanting things to be different, not wanting to feel them, trying to change them, or doing nothing. I feel stuck, with nowhere to go and nothing to do. Right or wrong—does it even matter? Whatever is meant to happen will happen anyway, so why bother? I don’t even know what I’m doing here, why I’m writing this, or what these thoughts really are. I just let these thoughts do whatever they want—heh even 'letting them' doesn’t feel like something I’m doing. What is all of this?

[bysa]

I can’t move, I feel trapped, being watched, like a caged ghost that is tied to a chair to just see, hear, and feel all these sensations without any ability to do anything about it. I never felt so powerless, so hopeless. Life never seems so pointless and absurd. And the worst part is that there’s nothing, NOTHING can be done about it. No method, no solution, no inquiry, no experience because this is all coming by itself so it just goes as long as it wants to go.

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

I’m sorry that you feel that way!

Doesn’t "everything" include thoughts, aversion, desire, pain, suffering, confusion, and even the feeling of getting lost in thoughts? It includes me wanting things to be different, not wanting to feel them, trying to change them, or doing nothing. I feel stuck, with nowhere to go and nothing to do. Right or wrong—does it even matter? Whatever is meant to happen will happen anyway, so why bother? I don’t even know what I’m doing here, why I’m writing this, or what these thoughts really are. I just let these thoughts do whatever they want—heh even 'letting them' doesn’t feel like something I’m doing. What is all of this?

I think you are confusing again DE with thought content. First, THIS is not what thoughts say it is, as we’ve seen a 1000 times by now. THIS is how it supposed to be, but what is supposed to be is not what thoughts says it is. Do you catch my drift?? You are still identifying with thoughts… Also, are there desires, aversions, suffering, confusion, getting lost in thoughts, …? Or just thoughts ABOUT stuff that is not real??? That is the point of the inquiry – to see that nothing that thoughts talk about is real. You are basically asking what is wrong in being deluded if there is no one to be deluded. That is a major bypassing. What is wrong with suffering if there is no one to suffer, right? Well suffering is still there no matter if there is someone to experience it or not. It is caused by ignorance, which causes "the system" to search for solutions to self correct... The same way suffering was created by the illusion of self, it needs to be seen in the light of a lack of self.

THIS is not personal and not experienced by anyone. Or is it? LOOK!
Instead of seeing thoughts in all their shapes as problems to be solved, they can be viewed as clues or indicators of areas that need attention or compassion, of areas where there is ignorance/an error in interpretation. The key is to allow these experiences to be present without judgment, resistance, or the need to change them, so the thoughts about them can self-correct.
You mention feeling stuck, with a sense of pointlessness and nowhere to go. This can be a common experience, as the mind grapples with the understanding that there is no separate "self" driving everything - the stage of depression about the "death" of the self (the 5 stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance). In these moments, it is helpful to focus on the present moment, noticing the sensations, all that is actually there. It sounds boring and definitely not what mind wants to do, but it is what needs to be done...
The feeling of "letting go" or "letting thoughts do whatever they want" is not necessarily something you are actively doing. Thoughts arise spontaneously, and "you" are not in control of their appearance. The more thoughts are checked (by no one), the more the identification with thoughts weakens, and the feeling of being stuck may also dissolve.
Ultimately, all of this points to the nature of reality as it is, free from the interpretations and narratives created by the mind (not to the story of helplessness around what is happening). Do you see the difference?? This is not a process to make things easier for “you” so YOU can live happily ever after.

I can’t move, I feel trapped, being watched, like a caged ghost that is tied to a chair to just see, hear, and feel all these sensations without any ability to do anything about it. I never felt so powerless, so hopeless. Life never seems so pointless and absurd. And the worst part is that there’s nothing, NOTHING can be done about it. No method, no solution, no inquiry, no experience because this is all coming by itself so it just goes as long as it wants to go.

The feeling of being trapped, powerless, and hopeless, as if forced to simply observe sensations without control, can be unsettling. You describe it as feeling like a "caged ghost that is tied to a chair to just see, hear, and feel all these sensations without any ability to do anything about it." This experience can make life feel pointless and absurd, especially when coupled with the sense that nothing can be done to change it.
HOWEVER, is there a doer, a control-less/helpless observer? Please check! Don’t assume the answer, have a fresh look, as this doesn’t seem to be properly seen. Where exactly is this doer, or observer? Where is it felt, how is it observed? What sensations are there that demonstrate its presence? Find out which entity in “you” is exploring the question and noticing the results?
The feeling of being trapped and powerless stems from the illusion of control and the belief in a separate "self" that is experiencing these sensations. Is there an actual "self" to be trapped? Is there an owner/experiencer of the sensations, are they personal/yours? Or are they are simply arising and passing away as part of the flow of life? Also, where exactly in the sensations is the information about “an entity being trapped? The mind desperately searches for solutions, methods, or experiences that will alleviate the discomfort, but this often only perpetuates the cycle of suffering. Instead, look! What happens when you “allow” sensations to just be – they come and go, and most importantly there are seen not to be what thought says they are. This acceptance doesn't mean resignation or passivity. Instead, it is an invitation to see that “things” are not bad or good and they do not need to be improved or manipulated (the illusion of control). As you let go of the illusion of control, a sense of peace and freedom can emerge – the system is in flow.

The feeling of pointlessness and absurdity you describe can also arise from the mind's struggle to find meaning and purpose in the absence of a separate "self". However, true meaning and purpose are not found in the external world or through the mind's interpretations. Instead, they are inherent in the present moment, in the simple act of being alive. Shift your attention from the search for meaning to the direct experience of life as it unfolds, with all its beauty and wonder.

Please, stay with this and let me know how it resonated in the body
Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

Is there anything besides what is seen, heard, or sensed that is not a thought? Even this is not true. There’s no sound, or color outside thoughts. How can one experience anything outside of the thoughts? What’s here that is not a thought? My subjective perspective isn't JUST my subjective perspective, it's literally all there is.
I’m still thinking about what you mentioned a while ago about finding the GAP in thoughts, and I have yet to find it. “I” and the thoughts exist dependently on each other. Even the noticing is a thought, isn’t it?

I think you are confusing again DE with thought content

Yes, that’s a hole that seems I can’t get out of. I went back and read your last reply about the thought paradox.

THIS is how it supposed to be, but what is supposed to be is not what thoughts says it is. Do you catch my drift?? 

THIS is how it is supposed to be. Anything else is just thought

Also, are there desires, aversions, suffering, confusion, getting lost in thoughts, …? Or just thoughts ABOUT stuff that is not real???

Only thoughts ABOUT desires, aversions, suffering, confusion, getting lost in thoughts.

You are basically asking what is wrong in being deluded if there is no one to be deluded

There is no delusion in THIS. There is no wrong or right in THIS. These labels only exist in thoughts.

THIS is not personal and not experienced by anyone. Or is it?

No, because there’s no person to experience it. This is how it is. There are thoughts about it that it’s bad, good, painful, joyful.

The feeling of "letting go" or "letting thoughts do whatever they want" is not necessarily something you are actively doing. Thoughts arise spontaneously, and "you" are not in control of their appearance.

This is such a comical paradox. The "I," which itself is just a thought with no doership or agency, lets other thoughts do whatever they want—all while knowing (also by thought) that THIS isn’t what thoughts say it is.

This is not a process to make things easier for “you” so YOU can live happily ever after.

It took a long time to reach this realization. The “I” which started this process in order to make its life easier only realizes there’s no “me”. Does it make things easier for “me” or not. Who knows?

Ultimately, all of this points to the nature of reality as it is, free from the interpretations and narratives created by the mind (not to the story of helplessness around what is happening). Do you see the difference??

Ah, the story of helplessness! I see it. Thoughts are weaving this tale of helplessness here—just another illusion, another unreal story. Before, it was about a “me in control,” now it’s a “poor me,” a “helpless, victimized me,” but always still about “me.” What a clever illusion! How many stories have been crafted: the “enlightened me,” the “happy me,” the “intelligent me,” the “wise me,” the “confused me.” Truly, nothing in thoughts is real. What’s the difference between “me” and that tree, or that bird? We humans really do love our stories!

is there a doer, a control-less/helpless observer?

No…Only thoughts about it exist. Thoughts about it / emotions are experienced here.

Where exactly is this doer, or observer?

Thoughts

Where is it felt, how is it observed? What sensations are there that demonstrate its presence? 

Sensations arise in the “body,” yet there’s no actual connection between these sensations and any doer or observer.

Find out which entity in “you” is exploring the question and noticing the results?

There’s no entity in “me”; there is no “me” to contain any part or essence. Thoughts come and go. “I” have no idea what’s happening. A question appears, thoughts arise, and hands write them down. All of this unfolds as a thought labels these actions as “mine.”

Is there an actual "self" to be trapped? Is there an owner/experiencer of the sensations, are they personal/yours? Or are they are simply arising and passing away as part of the flow of life?

No owner/experiencer, they are simply arising and passing away.

where exactly in the sensations is the information about “an entity being trapped?

Nowhere in sensations, this information is found.

The mind desperately searches for solutions, methods, or experiences that will alleviate the discomfort, but this often only perpetuates the cycle of suffering. Instead, look! What happens when you “allow” sensations to just be

Thoughts run wild, imagining countless scenarios where ignoring or not acting on them could lead to something going wrong! But who cares! As you said before: “Nothing needs fixing and whatever needs to happen will happen on its own without entities – actionless actions :). Cats will be fed (or not), work will be finished (or not), friends will be seen, etc.” There’s a dispassionate disengagement from the story of “I”.

I find that the harder I try, the more “I” I feel. Is there anything that “I” can do?

Shafigh

[bysa]

I reread your last post about the paradox of thoughts and this caught my eye:

Rather than accepting thoughts as facts, inquire into their validity. Ask yourself: Is this thought true? Is it helpful? Where is the evidence to support it?

How can I inquire into the validity of thoughts without using thoughts as the tool? How do I question myself without relying on thoughts? Even body sensations are interpreted through thought. If I strip away all labels from sensations, there's no differentiation left to ask if that was true or helpful.

This feels more and more like a bad joke.

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh
I can see you are going into nihilism which happens. Which is still a story… There is a resistance to staying with uncomfortable sensations which is now playing out as nihilism. It’s way better to be hopeless with no control and depressed with no meaning than to sit quietly and kindly with these sensations. "But why, why, what is the point???" Thoughts are throwing up a tantrum :) So let’s look into that

Is there anything besides what is seen, heard, or sensed that is not a thought? Even this is not true. There’s no sound, or color outside thoughts. How can one experience anything outside of the thoughts?

There is still identification with thought here… If there is nothing “besides what is seen, heard, or sensed that is not a thought” where is the “one to experience anything outside of the thoughts”? Is the “self” entity now replaced by “no self” entity, an experiencer with “no experiencer”/just thinker/just observer? Can a thought experience a thought or anything else? Are you identifying “yourself” as experience or with experience?

What’s here that is not a thought?

THIS?

I’m still thinking about what you mentioned a while ago about finding the GAP in thoughts, and I have yet to find it.

It doesn't happen through thinking but by sitting quietly and midfully. There are various techniques for meditatiing which final goal is to see that there is more to this than thought - aka the gap between thoughts. You can try focusing on the breath or another object, or no object at all. There are a ton of techniques - pick one that works for you and stay with it for days or even years. The more you do it the more you see it - noticing vs thinking.

My subjective perspective isn't JUST my subjective perspective, it's literally all there is.

What makes it subjective??? What happens on a conference of solipsists? :))) Your subjective perception of experience is just an unpersonal thought, otherwise there is just experience (THIS which includes thoughts as energetic appearance). Our perception of the world (the story) is shaped by our own thoughts, beliefs, and past experiences. Everything we see, hear, and experience is filtered through this subjective lens, creating a unique and personalized reality . This can create the illusion that our subjective perspective is all-encompassing, as if it is the only reality that exists. This idea is reinforced by the fact that we have no direct access to anyone else's subjective experience. We can only infer their thoughts and feelings based on their behaviour and communication, which are also filtered through our own subjective lens (e.g. the interpretation of what I've written).
This belief can lead to solipsism, the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. This can be a tempting conclusion when contemplating the nature of reality, as it seems to explain the unique and personal nature of our experience. However, there is a deeper reality that exists beyond the limitations of individual perspective.
This deeper reality is often described as "what is," "existence," "life," or “THIS” and it is characterized by a lack of separation and inherent meaning. It is the ground of being from which all experiences arise and to which they return. This reality can be accessed through direct experience (not by thought), by letting go of the conceptual mind and simply being the flow of life as it unfolds...
This process of letting go of the subjective perspective is not about denying the reality of our experiences. Instead, it is about seeing them for what they are: temporary and impersonal phenomena that arise and pass away. As the identification with thoughts, feelings, and perceptions is weakened, there is more open experiencing of this deeper reality.
Our subjective perspective is a temporary construction that will eventually dissolve (all is impermanent). While our subjective perspective is a powerful force that shapes our perception of the world, it is not the ultimate reality. By letting go of “attachment” to this perspective, a deeper understanding of life and lasting peace and freedom can be “achieved”.
I have to underlie the importance of not falling into nihilism. Nihilism, in this context, represents an extreme view that denies the existence or value of anything, including self, experience, and meaning. The "middle way" in Buddhism, avoids the extremes of nihilism and eternalism. Eternalism is the belief in a permanent and unchanging self or soul. The middle way offers a balanced approach that acknowledges the reality of experience while also recognizing its impermanent and ultimately empty nature - all beliefs are empty (of self of no self)
In your initial statement about feeling like a "caged ghost," you express a sense of hopelessness and pointlessness that echoes nihilistic sentiments. You describe the feeling that "there’s nothing, NOTHING can be done about it." This hopelessness is a story covering icky sensations. The acceptance of the present moment and the flow of life is not nihilistic resignation. It is an active engagement (effortless effort) with life as it is, informed by the understanding of impermanence and no-self. There is no one to engage or not to engage with life, the middle way is just an acceptance of the emptiness of things. However, emptiness does not mean nothingness. Here is a short video explaining emptiness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYqaWmc ... 4&index=41

The “decision” not to do anything (what’s the point) is still an empty thought. Can you decide not to breathe right now? Is that your decision? Are you the thinker of that thought? It still boils down to the desire of control and choice (not to do anything)…
This nihilistic tendency could lead to a dismissal the importance of self-care, relationships, and engagement with the world, which are all part of the flow. The recognition of the illusory nature of the self does not negate the need for ethical conduct, compassion, or responsible action. The subjective nature of perception and the tendency to believe that "my subjective perspective is all there is." can lead to a sense of isolation and meaninglessness. The middle way encourages us to recognize the interconnectedness of all things and to cultivate a sense of compassion and empathy for others, even as we understand the ultimate emptiness of self and phenomena.
There is a practical approach to navigating the complexities of experience and avoiding the extremes of nihilism and eternalism. It involves tools and techniques for cultivating mindfulness, questioning limiting beliefs, and developing a deeper understanding of the nature of reality. The goal is not to become a nihilist, but to eliminate suffering and to live a life of meaning and purpose, informed by wisdom and compassion (thought content).

This is such a comical paradox. The "I," which itself is just a thought with no doership or agency, lets other thoughts do whatever they want—all while knowing (also by thought) that THIS isn’t what thoughts say it is.

AKA thought self-organisation. Thoughts are focused on DE instead of themselves…

“I” and the thoughts exist dependently on each other. Even the noticing is a thought, isn’t it?

“I” exists? Where? Thoughts are there for sure but where is “I”?
Yes, noticing is a much quieter thought about DE, not about other thoughts (stories). It’s the helpful PA that has given up to be a master/bad boss.
Here’s an interesting article about tthoughts: https://psyche.co/ideas/how-feelings-a ... -our-world

How can I inquire into the validity of thoughts without using thoughts as the tool? How do I question myself without relying on thoughts? Even body sensations are interpreted through thought. If I strip away all labels from sensations, there's no differentiation left to ask if that was true or helpful.
This feels more and more like a bad joke.

What is that “I” which inquires into validity of thoughts??? Are you mistaking language for reality again? Thoughts could be “good” tools or “bad” tools, as mentioned above. When thoughts are about what is right here right now, there are about DE – part of the flow. When thoughts are about previous experience, old trauma, and fictitious characters taken seriously, they become a nuisance, a stick in the wheel. They create illusionary suffering, which in turn creates seeking, which leads to seeing through the illusion and then the stick is removed – all in thought, because the problem was never with THIS, it was always with thought content. But at no stage there was an experiencer of THIS. Especially now…There is no one noticing, there are only thoughts self-correcting around experience… Is that not clear? So how is the thought “What’s the point” about THIS (right now)? It’s more about the idea of THIS, it is still about poor “me”, that cannot find meaning…

When the grip on needing to define or protect a specific identity is released, life becomes less about what we are (and what we are not) and more about being itself. Just experiencing, moment by moment, without the usual layers of judgment or self-consciousness.
This perspective doesn’t require any belief system—it’s more about observing and experiencing what’s here, right now, with curiosity and openness.

How does this perspective feel for you? Does it bring up curiosity, or maybe more questions?
Love
Rali