LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self is just a stream of concepts appearing as thoughts or language referring to an 'I' or a 'me'. But this believed in character that we take ourselves to be can't be found. ( Well I can't find him..)
What are you looking for at LU?
I am hoping to find a guide who can show me where I'm stuck with fully grasping the understanding of no self.
I still really struggle with the idea of no doer especially around making decisions and living a life with this understanding. It seems so contrary to my lived experience. That is other people and my thoughts constantly referencing this dreamed up character who has to respond to his name, plan for the future, will himself to get things done etc.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'd love someone to be able to call me on my crap and really push me without pulling any punches.
I've been at this stuff for a few years and still the penny hasn't dropped so I'm obviously missing something.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been a seeker for about 10 years.
Lots of meditation, non duality books and 'who am I ?' self inquiry. There's been some blissful states in there, a few fleeting quiet moments but mostly alot of psychological suffering and frustration chasing after that seemingly elusive 'Ah ha' got it moment.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10
Decisions, decisions...
-
Hopefulness
- Posts: 756
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:15 pm
- Location: Louisiana
Re: Decisions, decisions...
I'll work with you. I'll post something tomorrow
Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
-
Hopefulness
- Posts: 756
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:15 pm
- Location: Louisiana
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here
My name is Paul, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.
Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.
Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, perception, attention, thought, rationality, and the sense of being a witness to all that arises in present experience, including thoughts arising and going. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves, or, at least, seeing the somewhat empty nature of the story. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual.
Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
And finally, The LU Terms and Conditions
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
Many helpful resources here for beginners:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/resources/
And now, some housekeeping helpful hints:
When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the L.U. system software wipes out your answer.
For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do so as well.
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the bottom left corner of your post page, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner or wrench. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click it again it should show now “ Unsubscribe topic”. DON'T CLICK ON IT AGAIN OR IT WILL UNSUBSRIBE YOU.
What time zone are in and what shall I call you?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
My name is Paul, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.
Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.
Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, perception, attention, thought, rationality, and the sense of being a witness to all that arises in present experience, including thoughts arising and going. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves, or, at least, seeing the somewhat empty nature of the story. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual.
Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
And finally, The LU Terms and Conditions
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
Many helpful resources here for beginners:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/resources/
And now, some housekeeping helpful hints:
When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the L.U. system software wipes out your answer.
For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do so as well.
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the bottom left corner of your post page, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner or wrench. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click it again it should show now “ Unsubscribe topic”. DON'T CLICK ON IT AGAIN OR IT WILL UNSUBSRIBE YOU.
What time zone are in and what shall I call you?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Thanks Paul for your reply and offer to guide me, it's most appreciated.
I've read the LU disclaimer.
I'm in Melbourne Australia, so it's Australian Eastern daylight time GMT +11.
I'll have a look through those resources for beginners you sent me.
Thanks,
Jaz
I've read the LU disclaimer.
I'm in Melbourne Australia, so it's Australian Eastern daylight time GMT +11.
I'll have a look through those resources for beginners you sent me.
Thanks,
Jaz
-
Hopefulness
- Posts: 756
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:15 pm
- Location: Louisiana
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Hi again,
Cool. Those materials are very much in tune with what I will be pointing to. Enjoy. What shall I call you? Is Jaz your name? Nickname? The only reason I ask is I will be asking you questions about identification from time to time and it should feel personal. If Jaz fits that description, then that's fine.
Moving along, I'd like you to elaborate a little more about your expectations, or, what you expect to be added to your current experience if you see what you are looking for?
Next, I'd like you to tell me if you have any fears, if any, about this, or, what do you imagine will be lost from your current experience if you see what you are looking for?
Next, answer a few questions about a couple of your opening answers.
How does that work? Do we have like two wrestlers, one named, "I" and one named "the idea of no doer" struggling on the mat?
Answer individually in order please.
1. Does the "I" thought know ANYTHING about a struggle?
2. Does the "I" thought know ANYTHING about "the idea of no doer"?
3. Does this "I" thought actually point to anything other than itself, as simply another thought?
4. Can ANY thought think?
5. Can this "I" thought "own" anything?
6. Can this "I" thought "do" anything?
7. Can the "my" thought actually own anything?
Answer these and then we will look for this "thinker of thoughts" and "doer of deeds."
Cool. Those materials are very much in tune with what I will be pointing to. Enjoy. What shall I call you? Is Jaz your name? Nickname? The only reason I ask is I will be asking you questions about identification from time to time and it should feel personal. If Jaz fits that description, then that's fine.
Moving along, I'd like you to elaborate a little more about your expectations, or, what you expect to be added to your current experience if you see what you are looking for?
Next, I'd like you to tell me if you have any fears, if any, about this, or, what do you imagine will be lost from your current experience if you see what you are looking for?
Next, answer a few questions about a couple of your opening answers.
but,I am hoping to find a guide who can show me where I'm stuck with fully grasping the understanding of no self.
I still really struggle with the idea of no doer....
Interesting. You see the "I" as a concept (or thought) but seem sure that this "I" thought can "struggle" with "the idea of no doer..."That the self is just a stream of concepts appearing as thoughts....
How does that work? Do we have like two wrestlers, one named, "I" and one named "the idea of no doer" struggling on the mat?
Answer individually in order please.
1. Does the "I" thought know ANYTHING about a struggle?
2. Does the "I" thought know ANYTHING about "the idea of no doer"?
3. Does this "I" thought actually point to anything other than itself, as simply another thought?
4. Can ANY thought think?
5. Can this "I" thought "own" anything?
6. Can this "I" thought "do" anything?
7. Can the "my" thought actually own anything?
Answer these and then we will look for this "thinker of thoughts" and "doer of deeds."
Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Hi Paul, I generally go by 'James' if that works for you.
Thanks for dissecting my initial answers..
I'll try to be more specific..
What I'd expect to be added to my current experience..
I'd describe the expectation, or hope as more of a stripping away than attempting to add anything to my current experience. The experience is fine as it is. It's this false overlay of 'I' 'me' etc that comes over the top of the experience and claims it as mine or 'affecting me' etc and this is where it goes to shit.
It then just becomes about labels and discontentments (mostly) about the experience not being how 'i' want it to be.
Interesting. You see the "I" as a concept (or thought) but seem sure that this "I" thought can "struggle" with "the idea of no doer..."
Haha. Yes. It seems there's some tail chasing going on.
Like the seeker trying to become enlightened. The seeker is imagined..it can't possibly get anything.
How does that work? Do we have like two wrestlers, one named, "I" and one named "the idea of no doer" struggling on the mat?
I think this is where I get tripped up.
I've just come out of a month long vipasana retreat in Myanmar. I certainly didn't come away with the clarity I was hoping for.
Watching thoughts and sensations arise. Still felt like 'i' was the watcher of what was arising. So yeah, it was like it had become two. Like the awareness observing had now been claimed and personalised into a new 'i' or 'me' as the watcher.
The new 'i' was the watcher observing the thought stream and the self referential thoughts and language the mind uses about an 'i'.. And away i go on the hamster wheel again. Just the 'me' now is awareness not the thought stream or the 'i' language or voice.
Not sure if I'm making any sense?
Answer individually in order please.
1. Does the "I" thought know ANYTHING about a struggle?
'I' is just a thought so it can't really know anything about struggle apart from more labels and words ' I endured this.. I suffered terribly etc'. But there was no one there to struggle. Sure there may have been a body on the meditation mat in great pain and the pain was experienced but just not by an 'I ' or a 'me'. This sounds right. Even feels right. But in the heat of the pain the mind bombarded 'me' with all sorts of thoughts.. why are you doing this? Why are you putting yourself through this? You're a sadist etc etc and this 'me' suffering unnecessarily was back in the driver's seat.
'Me' having to endure this horrible, painful experience.
2. Does the "I" thought know ANYTHING about "the idea of no doer"?
No. To the 'I' thought the notion of no doer seems ridiculous.
'Of course there's an 'i' and I'm steering the ship and making decisions..' is what it says..
This seems to be where I get stuck..
Because of all the meditation. It seems like there is now a 'watcher' as me. A new 'me' that isn't thoughts but the observer of thoughts. And this new observer 'me' ha, seemingly chooses which thoughts to listen to and which not..
So I've really just created another bloody 'me' out of awareness.
3. Does this "I" thought actually point to anything other than itself, as simply another thought?
No. It's completely incapable of doing anything. And that's the trick.. it claims the senses. 'I smelt, I felt etc but it's a phantom it can't do any of these things.
4. Can ANY thought think?
Hmmm. No. Thoughts just pop up. The problem arises when the 'i' claims them as mine.
5. Can this "I" thought "own" anything?
It seems to own a narrative or past story. But these are just more thoughts. There's nothing tangible there but random, often innacurate thoughts or memories about a past, which is just more thoughts.
6. Can this "I" thought "do" anything?
No. Its just thoughts popping up around an imagined 'I' using deceptive language of 'i, me, mine' to seemingly confirm its existence.
In my lived experience or autopilot mode it feels like it can. James needs to get his shit together, walk the dog, make decisions, struggle, stress and push or the wheels fall off. That's what it feels like.
I still don't get where the drive to do comes from.
It feels like two players.
1.The seeing through the illusion of the false me, I and
2. Needing to play the game of 'me or i'. Responding to my name, talking endlessly about this me in the past or future and planning what this 'me' is going to do.
Is it just knowing that 2. Is a phantom and then just playing the game as such? A bit like an actor knowing he's acting?
7. Can the "my" thought actually own anything?
I think this is the same as 5 ?
Thanks for your time and focus Paul, its really most appreciated. Please let me know if any of my answers need further clarification.
Cheers,
James
Thanks for dissecting my initial answers..
I'll try to be more specific..
What I'd expect to be added to my current experience..
I'd describe the expectation, or hope as more of a stripping away than attempting to add anything to my current experience. The experience is fine as it is. It's this false overlay of 'I' 'me' etc that comes over the top of the experience and claims it as mine or 'affecting me' etc and this is where it goes to shit.
It then just becomes about labels and discontentments (mostly) about the experience not being how 'i' want it to be.
Interesting. You see the "I" as a concept (or thought) but seem sure that this "I" thought can "struggle" with "the idea of no doer..."
Haha. Yes. It seems there's some tail chasing going on.
Like the seeker trying to become enlightened. The seeker is imagined..it can't possibly get anything.
How does that work? Do we have like two wrestlers, one named, "I" and one named "the idea of no doer" struggling on the mat?
I think this is where I get tripped up.
I've just come out of a month long vipasana retreat in Myanmar. I certainly didn't come away with the clarity I was hoping for.
Watching thoughts and sensations arise. Still felt like 'i' was the watcher of what was arising. So yeah, it was like it had become two. Like the awareness observing had now been claimed and personalised into a new 'i' or 'me' as the watcher.
The new 'i' was the watcher observing the thought stream and the self referential thoughts and language the mind uses about an 'i'.. And away i go on the hamster wheel again. Just the 'me' now is awareness not the thought stream or the 'i' language or voice.
Not sure if I'm making any sense?
Answer individually in order please.
1. Does the "I" thought know ANYTHING about a struggle?
'I' is just a thought so it can't really know anything about struggle apart from more labels and words ' I endured this.. I suffered terribly etc'. But there was no one there to struggle. Sure there may have been a body on the meditation mat in great pain and the pain was experienced but just not by an 'I ' or a 'me'. This sounds right. Even feels right. But in the heat of the pain the mind bombarded 'me' with all sorts of thoughts.. why are you doing this? Why are you putting yourself through this? You're a sadist etc etc and this 'me' suffering unnecessarily was back in the driver's seat.
'Me' having to endure this horrible, painful experience.
2. Does the "I" thought know ANYTHING about "the idea of no doer"?
No. To the 'I' thought the notion of no doer seems ridiculous.
'Of course there's an 'i' and I'm steering the ship and making decisions..' is what it says..
This seems to be where I get stuck..
Because of all the meditation. It seems like there is now a 'watcher' as me. A new 'me' that isn't thoughts but the observer of thoughts. And this new observer 'me' ha, seemingly chooses which thoughts to listen to and which not..
So I've really just created another bloody 'me' out of awareness.
3. Does this "I" thought actually point to anything other than itself, as simply another thought?
No. It's completely incapable of doing anything. And that's the trick.. it claims the senses. 'I smelt, I felt etc but it's a phantom it can't do any of these things.
4. Can ANY thought think?
Hmmm. No. Thoughts just pop up. The problem arises when the 'i' claims them as mine.
5. Can this "I" thought "own" anything?
It seems to own a narrative or past story. But these are just more thoughts. There's nothing tangible there but random, often innacurate thoughts or memories about a past, which is just more thoughts.
6. Can this "I" thought "do" anything?
No. Its just thoughts popping up around an imagined 'I' using deceptive language of 'i, me, mine' to seemingly confirm its existence.
In my lived experience or autopilot mode it feels like it can. James needs to get his shit together, walk the dog, make decisions, struggle, stress and push or the wheels fall off. That's what it feels like.
I still don't get where the drive to do comes from.
It feels like two players.
1.The seeing through the illusion of the false me, I and
2. Needing to play the game of 'me or i'. Responding to my name, talking endlessly about this me in the past or future and planning what this 'me' is going to do.
Is it just knowing that 2. Is a phantom and then just playing the game as such? A bit like an actor knowing he's acting?
7. Can the "my" thought actually own anything?
I think this is the same as 5 ?
Thanks for your time and focus Paul, its really most appreciated. Please let me know if any of my answers need further clarification.
Cheers,
James
-
Hopefulness
- Posts: 756
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:15 pm
- Location: Louisiana
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Hi again,
O.K. Good stuff. Lots to unpack.
Does this "claiming" thought know anything? Was it thinking? Did it grab something?
How is it a problem that awareness exists? How is it a problem that the talking head yaks all the time? Is awareness an identity just because it is a noun or object in language? Isn't awareness simply what is happening every moment within the senses? Isn't awareness simply inherent within experience? How would you know experience without awareness? How would awareness exist without constantly changing experience? Awareness is simply the background in which all objects-including thoughts-arise.
"Thought claims, thoughts claim, claims, claim claims, claim.................................."
Nuf said.
O.K. Good stuff. Lots to unpack.
Exactly. But that recognition that it's false is clarity. Not sure what, "goes to shit" means other than a lot of thoughts saying something should be different. Do any of those thoughts think?It's this false overlay of 'I' 'me' etc that comes over the top of the experience and claims it as mine or 'affecting me' etc and this is where it goes to shit."
So a thought "claimed" awareness. How was awareness changed? Did seeing change? Did hearing change? Did smelling change? Did tasting change? Did feeling change?Watching thoughts and sensations arise. Still felt like 'i' was the watcher of what was arising. So yeah, it was like it had become two. Like the awareness observing had now been claimed and personalized into a new 'I' or 'me' as the watcher.
Does this "claiming" thought know anything? Was it thinking? Did it grab something?
Just the 'me' now is awareness not the thought stream or the 'I' language or voice.
How is it a problem that awareness exists? How is it a problem that the talking head yaks all the time? Is awareness an identity just because it is a noun or object in language? Isn't awareness simply what is happening every moment within the senses? Isn't awareness simply inherent within experience? How would you know experience without awareness? How would awareness exist without constantly changing experience? Awareness is simply the background in which all objects-including thoughts-arise.
I believe the word is "masochist." Stop doing that. Painful exercises are completely unnecessary.But in the heat of the pain the mind bombarded 'me' with all sorts of thoughts.. why are you doing this? Why are you putting yourself through this? You're a sadist etc., etc., and this 'me' suffering unnecessarily was back in the driver's seat. Me' having to endure this horrible, painful experience.
Does the "I" thought have a sense of humor? Or do you that is reading this?Does the "I" thought know ANYTHING about "the idea of no doer"? No. To the 'I' thought the notion of no doer seems ridiculous.
Describe an "unlistened to" thought for me. How do you even know it's there? Or are you trying to say some are believed and others not? If so, what judges whether a thought is to be believed or not-another thought? If so, what gives that thought the authority to judge the first thought? Is there a hierarchy of thoughts? Is there a King thought somewhere?Because of all the meditation. It seems like there is now a 'watcher' as me. A new 'me' that isn't thoughts but the observer of thoughts. And this new observer 'me' ha, seemingly chooses which thoughts to listen to and which not. So I've really just created another bloody 'me' out of awareness.
Survival.I still don't get where the drive to do comes from.
"Thought claims, thoughts claim, claims, claim claims, claim.................................."
Nuf said.
Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Thanks Paul,
It's this false overlay of 'I' 'me' etc that comes over the top of the experience and claims it as mine or 'affecting me' etc and this is where it goes to shit."
Exactly. But that recognition that it's false is clarity. Not sure what, "goes to shit" means other than a lot of thoughts saying something should be different. Do any of those thoughts think?
It's just more thoughts saying 'things should be different' etc. This realisation as you point out is clarity. It seems like thoughts just try to brush over this truth to keep the seeking going.. 'that can't be it.. there's still a path to follow.. more that needs to be understood' etc.
Do any of the thoughts think? No, they just pop up as labels or images. They have no independent power. There's no autonomous being choosing to think..
Watching thoughts and sensations arise. Still felt like 'i' was the watcher of what was arising. So yeah, it was like it had become two. Like the awareness observing had now been claimed and personalized into a new 'I' or 'me' as the watcher.
So a thought "claimed" awareness. How was awareness changed?
Awareness wasn't changed. The new 'watcher' me was just another overlay of thoughts. Another thought created phantom 'I'.
Did seeing change? Did hearing change? Did smelling change? Did tasting change? Did feeling change?
No, the senses still operated independently without anyone 'directing' them.
Does this "claiming" thought know anything? Was it thinking?
It seems to. By using the I, me, mine language. Eg I'm not thoughts.. I'm the watcher of thoughts.'
But really these are just more thoughts. There is no watcher.
A watching yes, but I can't find a watcher in here anywhere..
Did it grab something?
It's just trying to claim awareness as 'I' doing something but it can't. It's just more labels on the experiencing.
It tricks by saying the 'me' now is awareness, not the thought stream or the 'I' language or voice. Then the me is just acting out this new character as awareness.
How is it a problem that awareness exists?
There's none. There'd be no experience without it.
How is it a problem that the talking head yaks all the time?
I'd certainly turn the volume button right down if it were possible but it's not.
Getting caught up in endless false referential 'I' narratives is the problem.
Is awareness an identity just because it is a noun or object in language? Isn't awareness simply what is happening every moment within the senses? Yes, the 'verbing' of awareness without labelling it as a noun makes things clearer.
Isn't awareness simply inherent within experience? How would you know experience without awareness? How would awareness exist without constantly changing experience? Awareness is simply the background in which all objects-including thoughts-arise.
Yes, this is clear but still seems to need constant reiterating to fully sink in. As more thoughts come in saying.. 'yes! I'm awareness.'
But in the heat of the pain the mind bombarded 'me' with all sorts of thoughts.. why are you doing this? Why are you putting yourself through this? You're a sadist etc., etc., and this 'me' suffering unnecessarily was back in the driver's seat. Me' having to endure this horrible, painful experience.
I believe the word is "masochist." Stop doing that. Painful exercises are completely unnecessary.
Yes. It seemed like this 'i' 'me' character was suffering on the meditation cushion in order to get something. But the dreamed up character of 'me or I' can't ever "get it' so it seems sort of nuts to persist.
Does the "I" thought have a sense of humor? Or do you that is reading this?
Good question..
It seems that the 'I ' thought just claims the laughter. ' I found the joke funny.' But there was really just a hearing of say a joke and a laughing response coming up spontaneously. Not by an anyone.
Describe an "unlistened to" thought for me. How do you even know it's there? Or are you trying to say some are believed and others not?
Yes, the latter question is what I'm getting at. Yes, it feels like there is a chooser of which thoughts to listen to/ react or respond to and which get dismissed.
If so, what judges whether a thought is to be believed or not-another thought?
Good question..
I'm not sure what chooses. But it feels like a choice is made by something I'd call me in there somewhere. I just can't find it when I try to look.
I really struggle with this and get in a real bind choosing/ making choices.
If so, what gives that thought the authority to judge the first thought? Is there a hierarchy of thoughts? Is there a King thought somewhere?
It's just thoughts battling with other thoughts. The way thought uses this 'I, me, mine' language makes decision making, choosing etc seem very personal. Me and the importance of my life decisions. I get sucked into that easily.
still don't get where the drive to do comes from.
Survival.
Can you say more about this?
I remember Ilona writing something in the GG book ' Your kids will be taken care of. They already are, it's only a thought in your head that makes it appear as if you're doing all these things.' Mmm.. this notion of doership still feels stuck.
I'm trying to see through it..
There's thoughts, something chooses or makes a decision but it's not by the 'I or me'. So I'll never know what is ultimately choosing? So does this mean there's no good or bad choices?
I heard the the line used 'choices are made just not by an I.'
Something in me finds this infuriating as it doesn't clarify anything. But I suppose it has to be true. Thoughts just pop up. They aren't chosen. Reacting to thoughts just happens. Even though it seems there's a chooser so it must be the same for decision making.
Thanks greatly Paul,
James.
It's this false overlay of 'I' 'me' etc that comes over the top of the experience and claims it as mine or 'affecting me' etc and this is where it goes to shit."
Exactly. But that recognition that it's false is clarity. Not sure what, "goes to shit" means other than a lot of thoughts saying something should be different. Do any of those thoughts think?
It's just more thoughts saying 'things should be different' etc. This realisation as you point out is clarity. It seems like thoughts just try to brush over this truth to keep the seeking going.. 'that can't be it.. there's still a path to follow.. more that needs to be understood' etc.
Do any of the thoughts think? No, they just pop up as labels or images. They have no independent power. There's no autonomous being choosing to think..
Watching thoughts and sensations arise. Still felt like 'i' was the watcher of what was arising. So yeah, it was like it had become two. Like the awareness observing had now been claimed and personalized into a new 'I' or 'me' as the watcher.
So a thought "claimed" awareness. How was awareness changed?
Awareness wasn't changed. The new 'watcher' me was just another overlay of thoughts. Another thought created phantom 'I'.
Did seeing change? Did hearing change? Did smelling change? Did tasting change? Did feeling change?
No, the senses still operated independently without anyone 'directing' them.
Does this "claiming" thought know anything? Was it thinking?
It seems to. By using the I, me, mine language. Eg I'm not thoughts.. I'm the watcher of thoughts.'
But really these are just more thoughts. There is no watcher.
A watching yes, but I can't find a watcher in here anywhere..
Did it grab something?
It's just trying to claim awareness as 'I' doing something but it can't. It's just more labels on the experiencing.
It tricks by saying the 'me' now is awareness, not the thought stream or the 'I' language or voice. Then the me is just acting out this new character as awareness.
How is it a problem that awareness exists?
There's none. There'd be no experience without it.
How is it a problem that the talking head yaks all the time?
I'd certainly turn the volume button right down if it were possible but it's not.
Getting caught up in endless false referential 'I' narratives is the problem.
Is awareness an identity just because it is a noun or object in language? Isn't awareness simply what is happening every moment within the senses? Yes, the 'verbing' of awareness without labelling it as a noun makes things clearer.
Isn't awareness simply inherent within experience? How would you know experience without awareness? How would awareness exist without constantly changing experience? Awareness is simply the background in which all objects-including thoughts-arise.
Yes, this is clear but still seems to need constant reiterating to fully sink in. As more thoughts come in saying.. 'yes! I'm awareness.'
But in the heat of the pain the mind bombarded 'me' with all sorts of thoughts.. why are you doing this? Why are you putting yourself through this? You're a sadist etc., etc., and this 'me' suffering unnecessarily was back in the driver's seat. Me' having to endure this horrible, painful experience.
I believe the word is "masochist." Stop doing that. Painful exercises are completely unnecessary.
Yes. It seemed like this 'i' 'me' character was suffering on the meditation cushion in order to get something. But the dreamed up character of 'me or I' can't ever "get it' so it seems sort of nuts to persist.
Does the "I" thought have a sense of humor? Or do you that is reading this?
Good question..
It seems that the 'I ' thought just claims the laughter. ' I found the joke funny.' But there was really just a hearing of say a joke and a laughing response coming up spontaneously. Not by an anyone.
Describe an "unlistened to" thought for me. How do you even know it's there? Or are you trying to say some are believed and others not?
Yes, the latter question is what I'm getting at. Yes, it feels like there is a chooser of which thoughts to listen to/ react or respond to and which get dismissed.
If so, what judges whether a thought is to be believed or not-another thought?
Good question..
I'm not sure what chooses. But it feels like a choice is made by something I'd call me in there somewhere. I just can't find it when I try to look.
I really struggle with this and get in a real bind choosing/ making choices.
If so, what gives that thought the authority to judge the first thought? Is there a hierarchy of thoughts? Is there a King thought somewhere?
It's just thoughts battling with other thoughts. The way thought uses this 'I, me, mine' language makes decision making, choosing etc seem very personal. Me and the importance of my life decisions. I get sucked into that easily.
still don't get where the drive to do comes from.
Survival.
Can you say more about this?
I remember Ilona writing something in the GG book ' Your kids will be taken care of. They already are, it's only a thought in your head that makes it appear as if you're doing all these things.' Mmm.. this notion of doership still feels stuck.
I'm trying to see through it..
There's thoughts, something chooses or makes a decision but it's not by the 'I or me'. So I'll never know what is ultimately choosing? So does this mean there's no good or bad choices?
I heard the the line used 'choices are made just not by an I.'
Something in me finds this infuriating as it doesn't clarify anything. But I suppose it has to be true. Thoughts just pop up. They aren't chosen. Reacting to thoughts just happens. Even though it seems there's a chooser so it must be the same for decision making.
Thanks greatly Paul,
James.
-
Hopefulness
- Posts: 756
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:15 pm
- Location: Louisiana
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Hi again,
O.K. More good stuff to look at. If you could take a minute to look at how to use the quote function it would make the reading easier. From time to time I may refer you back to a previous post to see if anything is changed, and you won't have to remember who said what.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.
1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.
6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.
Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.
O.K. Moving on. I can see you already see the somewhat transparency or emptiness of thought, and its inability to anything other than bring on feelings and sensations that are frequently misinterpreted as proving that a thought is true.
Here's something to look at:
We know what it is for a thought to arise. But what is it to believe a
thought? What's going on there?
Normally speaking, belief is an attitude we have towards a thought,
statement or proposition. It's not the thought itself, but something we
think or feel about it. Schematically, it's like this:
1 (Thought "A") "My spiritual path is the most effective one."
2 (Thought "B") "I feel strongly that A is true."
In this case, the belief about thought "A" is actually thought "B."
This is ironic! When we believe a thought, it's just another thought,
with maybe a touch of hope or fear (feelings) that it is true. Of course,
the "believing" thought could take a different form. Instead of the
mere statement that "I think A is true," the believing thought could
be one or more other thoughts:
3 (Thought "C") "'When someone agrees with 'A', I feel a warm sense
of pleasure."
4 (Thought "D") "When someone disagrees with 'A', I get hurt, angry
or confused."
5 (Thought "E") ""Because of 'C' and 'D', I realize that I must really
believe that "A" is true."
All of these are separate thoughts. Even the feelings and reactions mentioned in "C" and "D" are nothing more than other mental objects, other "thoughts" in a wider sense.
So the beliefs about thoughts are merely thoughts. They aren't really
different from the thoughts themselves. They all arise to you, to your
nature as global background witnessing awareness! It turns out that the believing thought and the believed thought are never present at the same time. They are separate and independent from each
other. So belief is a claim never borne out by direct experience.
O.K. More good stuff to look at. If you could take a minute to look at how to use the quote function it would make the reading easier. From time to time I may refer you back to a previous post to see if anything is changed, and you won't have to remember who said what.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ
O.K. Let's see if we can find a quiet spot for you. You are going to look for the quiet gap that exists briefly between two thoughts.How is it a problem that the talking head yaks all the time?
I'd certainly turn the volume button right down if it were possible but it's not.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.
1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.
6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.
Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.
O.K. Moving on. I can see you already see the somewhat transparency or emptiness of thought, and its inability to anything other than bring on feelings and sensations that are frequently misinterpreted as proving that a thought is true.
Here's something to look at:
If so, what judges whether a thought is to be believed or not-another thought?
Good question..
We know what it is for a thought to arise. But what is it to believe a
thought? What's going on there?
Normally speaking, belief is an attitude we have towards a thought,
statement or proposition. It's not the thought itself, but something we
think or feel about it. Schematically, it's like this:
1 (Thought "A") "My spiritual path is the most effective one."
2 (Thought "B") "I feel strongly that A is true."
In this case, the belief about thought "A" is actually thought "B."
This is ironic! When we believe a thought, it's just another thought,
with maybe a touch of hope or fear (feelings) that it is true. Of course,
the "believing" thought could take a different form. Instead of the
mere statement that "I think A is true," the believing thought could
be one or more other thoughts:
3 (Thought "C") "'When someone agrees with 'A', I feel a warm sense
of pleasure."
4 (Thought "D") "When someone disagrees with 'A', I get hurt, angry
or confused."
5 (Thought "E") ""Because of 'C' and 'D', I realize that I must really
believe that "A" is true."
All of these are separate thoughts. Even the feelings and reactions mentioned in "C" and "D" are nothing more than other mental objects, other "thoughts" in a wider sense.
So the beliefs about thoughts are merely thoughts. They aren't really
different from the thoughts themselves. They all arise to you, to your
nature as global background witnessing awareness! It turns out that the believing thought and the believed thought are never present at the same time. They are separate and independent from each
other. So belief is a claim never borne out by direct experience.
Be patient. We will get to that. Choices will be looked at differently.I heard the the line used 'choices are made just not by an I.
Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Hi Paul,
I've been continuing to watch the thought patterns as they arise and looking for the gaps between thoughts.
This thought free quiet space is beautiful.
I think the catch is (and perhaps the catch with meditation?) Is it becomes an activity searching for a 'state' rather than a realisation that I'm that space or as you put it -our
'
It's incredible how the thought stream keeps trying to create something tangible to call itself 'I or me'.
'I am not the objects appearing, I am the watcher of all that's appearing.'yada yada.. And away it goes again.. it's just created another 'i' out of this new me, the watcher.
This patterning has been going on for many years.
Ilona in the Gateless gatecrashers book puts it well:
'
The mind/ seeker seems enternaly trying to come up with a 'label' for what I am at my core.
I suspect much of my self enquiry practice for many years was derailed by this. 'OK.. I'm awareness or beingness or consciousness or the watcher etc etc' all just labels on experience. Then the mind would use this label to say.. 'job done.. you're awareness.. no more need to investigate.'
And the looking or investigation would stop.
Just being that space for things to arise (without trying to give it a hard label if that makes sense?) Is about as close as I can come to a resting place for what I am at my core.
There's definitely frustration arising, a longing for the ahahh.. moment when this understanding sinks in fully.
The Santa Claus moment. When it's understood and absorbed fully that there ain't an 'i'.
Or will the mind just endlessly try to convince me there is and I'll always have this struggle and have to keep remembering ? Particularly when I awake in the morning and it wants to assert this 'I' back in the driver's seat.
The watching of the mind's habit of linking thought streams together is very important. Thankyou for pointing this out.
'
Yes, from watching thoughts arise this is very true. It's seemingly so layered but in reality they are stand alone thoughts appearing separately. This is a new recognition for me. Feels very important. It feels like I've got to be quite vigilant for a while to watch this mind patterning to break a very ingrained habit.
Thanks Paul,
Ps am I using the quote function correctly now?
I've been continuing to watch the thought patterns as they arise and looking for the gaps between thoughts.
This thought free quiet space is beautiful.
I think the catch is (and perhaps the catch with meditation?) Is it becomes an activity searching for a 'state' rather than a realisation that I'm that space or as you put it -our
'
I'm definitely much calmer and able to catch the reactivity and thought streams. Not sure if this is a by-product of last month's vipasana sit or from this no- self investigation beginning to sink in. But, I acknowledge, these are just nice states and nothing to do with the understanding we're going through.nature as global background witnessing awareness!'
It's incredible how the thought stream keeps trying to create something tangible to call itself 'I or me'.
'I am not the objects appearing, I am the watcher of all that's appearing.'yada yada.. And away it goes again.. it's just created another 'i' out of this new me, the watcher.
This patterning has been going on for many years.
Ilona in the Gateless gatecrashers book puts it well:
'
I know this 'observer' 'watcher' is just another construct of mind. It just seems like I'm endlessly having to go back over this understanding.Long term seekers, seek habitually. We fall into this low grade never satisfied dharma path to do something with the self, get rid of it, make it more deeper or whatever words we can come up with.'
The mind/ seeker seems enternaly trying to come up with a 'label' for what I am at my core.
I suspect much of my self enquiry practice for many years was derailed by this. 'OK.. I'm awareness or beingness or consciousness or the watcher etc etc' all just labels on experience. Then the mind would use this label to say.. 'job done.. you're awareness.. no more need to investigate.'
And the looking or investigation would stop.
Just being that space for things to arise (without trying to give it a hard label if that makes sense?) Is about as close as I can come to a resting place for what I am at my core.
There's definitely frustration arising, a longing for the ahahh.. moment when this understanding sinks in fully.
The Santa Claus moment. When it's understood and absorbed fully that there ain't an 'i'.
Or will the mind just endlessly try to convince me there is and I'll always have this struggle and have to keep remembering ? Particularly when I awake in the morning and it wants to assert this 'I' back in the driver's seat.
The watching of the mind's habit of linking thought streams together is very important. Thankyou for pointing this out.
'
I've had to read this several times and spent some time watching and letting it sink in.It turns out that the believing thought and the believed thought are never present at the same time. They are separate and independent from each
other. So belief is a claim never borne out by direct experience.'
Yes, from watching thoughts arise this is very true. It's seemingly so layered but in reality they are stand alone thoughts appearing separately. This is a new recognition for me. Feels very important. It feels like I've got to be quite vigilant for a while to watch this mind patterning to break a very ingrained habit.
Thanks Paul,
Ps am I using the quote function correctly now?
-
Hopefulness
- Posts: 756
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:15 pm
- Location: Louisiana
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Hi again,
Let's look at the gap AS actual experience for just a few elapsed seconds:
[T____________I__________________M_______________E.]
[ A thought][________The Gap______________][A thought.]
..............[________Seeing________________]
..............[________Hearing_______________]
..............[________Smelling______________]
..............[________Tasting_______________]
..............[________Feeling_______________]
Do you find an actual "I" here right now other than a thought "I" at the beginning of every sentence?
Yup.This thought free quiet space is beautiful.
The subject/object delusion is the state, as well as the subject/object fiction that indulges in meditation to overcome the subject\object split. "I" (subject) am going to practice meditation (object) to overcome the subject\object split. You create the "I" that is trying to see through the "I" by simply saying it. Do you see more tail chasing here?I think the catch is (and perhaps the catch with meditation?) Is it becomes an activity searching for a 'state' rather than a realization that I'm that space or as you put it -our nature as global background witnessing awareness!'
Let's look at the gap AS actual experience for just a few elapsed seconds:
[T____________I__________________M_______________E.]
[ A thought][________The Gap______________][A thought.]
..............[________Seeing________________]
..............[________Hearing_______________]
..............[________Smelling______________]
..............[________Tasting_______________]
..............[________Feeling_______________]
Good. Keep noticing.It's incredible how the thought stream keeps trying to create something tangible to call itself 'I or me
Was there an observer or watcher before you knew language? Or was observing and watching just happening without the labels on experience?I know this 'observer' 'watcher' is just another construct of mind. It just seems like I'm endlessly having to go back over this understanding.
It isn't that Santa Claus is understood not to exist. It is seen that Santa Claus is not here right now.There's definitely frustration arising, a longing for the ahahh.. moment when this understanding sinks in fully.
The Santa Claus moment. When it's understood and absorbed fully that there ain't an 'i'.
Do you find an actual "I" here right now other than a thought "I" at the beginning of every sentence?
Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your pointers.
The subject/ object tail chase in meditation is a very important one. An imagined me sitting on a mat trying to overcome the sub/obj split.
No me, James before language..just experiencing.
Good distinction you make re Santa Claus and the 'I'. Look for it now. Rather than hope for some absorbed knowledge of their non existence.
Maybe it does sink in eventually.. not sure.. but it seems to require an investigation over and over when I get caught up in this phantom 'I, me'. I suppose this is the clearing out process.
I've been continuing to watch and enquire.
Very simple in the radical truth of it.
No 'me' to be found anywhere. Just thoughts wanting to claim experience.
This is clear.
Amazing how the mind wants to rush past this realisation. 'This isn't it.. it can't be.. still much effort and insight needed.' Blah blah..
'The content of mind is just hanging there, feeding itself and claiming to be you. But there is no you.' Was a great line from GG book.
More beautiful still moments in this understanding.
The 'me' construct or thought mechanism reminds me
a bit of a shark. It hates to be spotted, to be seen. It's whole disguise is exposed.
Just trying to watch it. Not fight it.
More flow, less reactivity going on. Quite noticeable and a good testing ground ( I'm staying with my mother for a couple of months ha).
Letting go of the seeker and some spiritual path I'm on feels like letting go of a long cherished part of my personality. Resistance is there.
Letting go of held beliefs, judgements, opinions also very challenging. Politics, activism, self righteousness run deep in my family. Expressing strong beliefs or convictions something quite ingrained.
How does one have a stance or a conviction?
I suppose it's just thoughts or a perspective arising by no one. And if it gets voiced or actioned it was by no one.
Thanks,
James
Thanks for your pointers.
The subject/ object tail chase in meditation is a very important one. An imagined me sitting on a mat trying to overcome the sub/obj split.
No me, James before language..just experiencing.
Good distinction you make re Santa Claus and the 'I'. Look for it now. Rather than hope for some absorbed knowledge of their non existence.
Maybe it does sink in eventually.. not sure.. but it seems to require an investigation over and over when I get caught up in this phantom 'I, me'. I suppose this is the clearing out process.
I've been continuing to watch and enquire.
Very simple in the radical truth of it.
No 'me' to be found anywhere. Just thoughts wanting to claim experience.
This is clear.
Amazing how the mind wants to rush past this realisation. 'This isn't it.. it can't be.. still much effort and insight needed.' Blah blah..
'The content of mind is just hanging there, feeding itself and claiming to be you. But there is no you.' Was a great line from GG book.
More beautiful still moments in this understanding.
The 'me' construct or thought mechanism reminds me
a bit of a shark. It hates to be spotted, to be seen. It's whole disguise is exposed.
Just trying to watch it. Not fight it.
More flow, less reactivity going on. Quite noticeable and a good testing ground ( I'm staying with my mother for a couple of months ha).
Letting go of the seeker and some spiritual path I'm on feels like letting go of a long cherished part of my personality. Resistance is there.
Letting go of held beliefs, judgements, opinions also very challenging. Politics, activism, self righteousness run deep in my family. Expressing strong beliefs or convictions something quite ingrained.
How does one have a stance or a conviction?
I suppose it's just thoughts or a perspective arising by no one. And if it gets voiced or actioned it was by no one.
Thanks,
James
-
Hopefulness
- Posts: 756
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:15 pm
- Location: Louisiana
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Hi again,
You are doing well. Keep noticing how thoughts "seem" to "want" to be believed. But can a thought actually "want" something. Or, are those just feelings again? I have a very busy schedule today at work but I'll try to put something up later, although what I have given you so far seems to be sinking in nicely. Is that which is reading this writing seeing thoughts as simply objects yet?
You are doing well. Keep noticing how thoughts "seem" to "want" to be believed. But can a thought actually "want" something. Or, are those just feelings again? I have a very busy schedule today at work but I'll try to put something up later, although what I have given you so far seems to be sinking in nicely. Is that which is reading this writing seeing thoughts as simply objects yet?
Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
-
Hopefulness
- Posts: 756
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:15 pm
- Location: Louisiana
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Hi again,
Good.Amazing how the mind wants to rush past this realisation. 'This isn't it.. it can't be.. still much effort and insight needed.' Blah blah..
GoodMore beautiful still moments in this understanding.
Complicated "you" is seen as a fictional character in a novel called "James' Spiritual Path." The mind is built for solving complicated things and situations. Simple being or existence feels alien at first.Letting go of the seeker and some spiritual path I'm on feels like letting go of a long cherished part of my personality. Resistance is there.
Strong beliefs or simply strong feelings?Letting go of held beliefs, judgements, opinions also very challenging. Politics, activism, self righteousness run deep in my family. Expressing strong beliefs or convictions something quite ingrained.
How does one have a stance or a conviction?
Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
Re: Decisions, decisions...
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your continued pointers and
apologies for the slow reply. It's been a crazy week.
I'm back at work myself after a year off. Everything feels terribly rushed and stressful. It's a tough quite technical and physical job with an irate boss and lots of triggers. Feelings arising of being quite overwhelmed. Much mind chatter arising. 'This is not ok.. what are you doing back here.. you hate this'..etc.
It's been interesting watching the mind put up it's usual victim, resistance story and consolidate it through language. (The 'I' seemingly taking ownership of this unacceptable situation). Just more mind babble.. quite alot of fear arising that the 'I' wants to take ownership of 'You got yourself into a really bad head space last time with this work, don't fall back into that..'
At times being able to identify and recognise quite alot of anger and anxiety simmering away behind the mind's narrations.
Similar old mind chatter trying to de-rail the investigation too.
'This is futile.. you've clearly investigated that there's no 'you' here.. but..my whole lived experience is of a 'me' having to navigate through life. '
Much anger, frustration arising.
It seems I'm back in the movie again most of the time, rather than being aware of watching the movie unfold.
Waiting for something to shift. But that in itself seems futile or unrealistic.
The 'me' character certainly wanting to throw in the towl.
J
Thanks for your continued pointers and
apologies for the slow reply. It's been a crazy week.
I'm back at work myself after a year off. Everything feels terribly rushed and stressful. It's a tough quite technical and physical job with an irate boss and lots of triggers. Feelings arising of being quite overwhelmed. Much mind chatter arising. 'This is not ok.. what are you doing back here.. you hate this'..etc.
It's been interesting watching the mind put up it's usual victim, resistance story and consolidate it through language. (The 'I' seemingly taking ownership of this unacceptable situation). Just more mind babble.. quite alot of fear arising that the 'I' wants to take ownership of 'You got yourself into a really bad head space last time with this work, don't fall back into that..'
At times being able to identify and recognise quite alot of anger and anxiety simmering away behind the mind's narrations.
Similar old mind chatter trying to de-rail the investigation too.
'This is futile.. you've clearly investigated that there's no 'you' here.. but..my whole lived experience is of a 'me' having to navigate through life. '
Much anger, frustration arising.
It seems I'm back in the movie again most of the time, rather than being aware of watching the movie unfold.
Waiting for something to shift. But that in itself seems futile or unrealistic.
The 'me' character certainly wanting to throw in the towl.
J
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