Looking for a guide :)

[Elad]

There does seem to be a someone, seemingly. As long as I can remember he was the one that makes decisions, and it feels like he is constant. But that's a thought thats just arising. Confusing. There is something that knows these thoughts happens and it's feels like me, that I'm making a choice.

The "seemingly" indicates awareness that this is a belief, not directly seen beyond doubt. Is that true?

As long as I can remember he was the one that makes decisions, and it feels like he is constant

The EXPERIENCE, the BELIEF is certainly there. A real experience, a real belief. But can that experience/belief be found as anything else then just a belief, an experience? Does an experience decide and act?

There is something that knows these thoughts happens

You need to question and look deeper for this process to move. Is there actually a "something" found in direct experience? Or is it just assumed that there is a something (noun) rather then just a process (verb - experiencing rather then experiencer), a believing in (verb).

Please look at these questions many times, and after reading them BE STILL and LOOK. No thoughts "your mind" produces will lead your closer, it doesn't even matter much if "you believe" in something that is true and logical or false and illogical, the context of this inquiry. When seeing happens it will be trans-verbal, direct. Words will come after and describe it, but it will be clear by the "vibe" that it comes from somewhere else.

LOOK AND QUESTION DEEPER.

And do the following exercise to help the process.

[Elad]

Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour

Smelling coffee, simply = smell

Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation

Tasting the coffee, simply = taste

Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound

Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

[matanz]

The EXPERIENCE, the BELIEF is certainly there. A real experience, a real belief. But can that experience/belief be found as anything else then just a belief, an experience? Does an experience decide and act?

That's interesting. It seems that experience just occurs - it rises up as a thought, and there is something (me?) that gives the feeling of a belief? it's implicit? I'm not sure. I don't even understand how beliefs work if I try to break them down into components. There is a thought that arises, with my voice, which "feels" like me, like it's a sensation that is so familiar it has the feeling of a me. but besides the thought, what verifies that one thought is true and another is just mumbo jumbo? Not sure. Would love a clarification.
All in All it's an experience that arises. A few seconds or moments later it's gone like it never was there. It as if all thoughts arise of this assumption that this "me" exists and it's kinda implicit, and every thought that is first person reinforces the me.
It feels like this thoughts decide and acts because action follows it and it directs the day. but if I'm meditating, a thought can arise and tell me (not sure who's who anymore lol) and can just pass without nothing being done. still confusing

Well, the something points to what is writing this words, the watcher, the awareness, the thing behind the eyes or whatever word that fits the thing that is alive.
I can't find anything tangible in direct experience besides the fact that I'm alive when I try to find the "something"

Will do the exercise, I like the deconstructing.

[Elad]

It seems that experience just occurs - it rises up as a thought, and there is something (me?) that gives the feeling of a belief?

Can you see you are assuming there most be a something (separate, identifiable) that makes a belief happen? Can you see this is just an assumption? You don't directly SEE that there is something, rather then :it just happens as a mystery beyond mind understanding and thoughts/language cut it into subject-verb-object after the fact

it's implicit? I'm not sure. I don't even understand how beliefs work if I try to break them down into components. There is a thought that arises, with my voice, which "feels" like me, like it's a sensation that is so familiar it has the feeling of a me. but besides the thought, what verifies that one thought is true and another is just mumbo jumbo? Not sure. Would love a clarification.

It is good you see you don't know. You can't move forward here through explanations or trying to figure it out. It gets in the way in fact. You need to LOOK what is actually there. How is the belief in I manifesting? What creates it? DONT ANALYZE IT. LOOK AT THE EXPERIENCE THAT IS HAPPENING NOW. MANY TIMES.

All in All it's an experience that arises. A few seconds or moments later it's gone like it never was there. It as if all thoughts arise of this assumption that this "me" exists and it's kinda implicit, and every thought that is first person reinforces the me.
It feels like this thoughts decide and acts because action follows it and it directs the day. but if I'm meditating, a thought can arise and tell me (not sure who's who anymore lol) and can just pass without nothing being done. still confusing

Getting clearer here. You are just so used to experience life through logic thinking and belief, like the vast majority of humanity. The process here is largely about learning to really see what just happens. And then compare beliefs with what actually happens/is.

Well, the something points to what is writing this words, the watcher, the awareness, the thing behind the eyes or whatever word that fits the thing that is alive.
I can't find anything tangible in direct experience besides the fact that I'm alive when I try to find the "something"

Please repeat to me the questions I gave you about the assumption that something is alive. This text here is as if you didn't read them. If you don't remember return to earlier messages and pay close attention.

Will do the exercise, I like the deconstructing.

In this process your intellectual experience and the fact that you think you "like deconstructing" will only disturb the freshness, it reinforces your sense of knowing and control, which of course "the ego" (not a thing, just a word to point with) loves and wants.

[Elad]

Please repeat to me the questions I gave you about the assumption that something is alive. This text here is as if you didn't read them. If you don't remember return to earlier messages and pay close attention.

This assumption of something that is alive is the same as the assumption about something that is aware, something that is, something (noun as opposed to verb - and really neither).

[matanz]

Can you see you are assuming there most be a something (separate, identifiable) that makes a belief happen? Can you see this is just an assumption? You don't directly SEE that there is something, rather then :it just happens as a mystery beyond mind understanding and thoughts/language cut it into subject-verb-object after the fact

Yes, I see. Anything I try to spin up when disecting a belief is just a though. When I just pause and try to pay attention it's just thoughts arising with feelings, but there is nothing that makes a belief happen. Weird

It is good you see you don't know. You can't move forward here through explanations or trying to figure it out. It gets in the way in fact. You need to LOOK what is actually there. How is the belief in I manifesting? What creates it? DONT ANALYZE IT. LOOK AT THE EXPERIENCE THAT IS HAPPENING NOW. MANY TIMES.

It's the identification of a thought about me. But it feels like thought is identifying with itself? Not sure. I'll keep looking into it. It's the thinking of that thought as the subject is someone? me? I meditate sometimes so when in practice it is seen very clearly that these me thoughts just arise and they weaken after some time. it makes it easier for me to just look without doing anything (the meditation practice) even if im not meditating at the moment. I think me trying to understand the identification mechanism IS the obstacle. will keep on looking.

Please repeat to me the questions I gave you about the assumption that something is alive. This text here is as if you didn't read them. If you don't remember return to earlier messages and pay close attention.

I looked back at the entire thread and couldn't find anything in that subject, not sure here.

[Elad]

Can you see you are assuming there most be a something (separate, identifiable) that makes a belief happen? Can you see this is just an assumption? You don't directly SEE that there is something, rather then :it just happens as a mystery beyond mind understanding and thoughts/language cut it into subject-verb-object after the fact

Yes, I see. Anything I try to spin up when disecting a belief is just a though. When I just pause and try to pay attention it's just thoughts arising with feelings, but there is nothing that makes a belief happen. Weird

Good. This is what I was asking also in former posts. That when you imagine there most be someone/something that is alive or that is aware, rather then that there is just aliveness/alivenessing or awareness/awarenessing, this is all just belief based in thought habits and the habitual programming logic of langauage.

It's the identification of a thought about me. But it feels like thought is identifying with itself? Not sure. I'll keep looking into it. It's the thinking of that thought as the subject is someone? me? I meditate sometimes so when in practice it is seen very clearly that these me thoughts just arise and they weaken after some time. it makes it easier for me to just look without doing anything (the meditation practice) even if im not meditating at the moment. I think me trying to understand the identification mechanism IS the obstacle. will keep on looking.

Yes. You trying to figure it out is how the self illusion and identification with thought is maintained. Furthermore, you cannot decide to stop this habit. Even trying to stop it is another way of trying to control what you have no control over. Instead just SEE how it happens.


How did it go with the exercise of Labelling Daily Activities? Please answer all questions and exercises.

The idea that meditation helps can be a trap. Of course conventionally speakling meditation is a more conducive activity then say takin heroin. But the problem is that ideas about what works, and ideas about past experience, consolidate the self illusion, it's what is called "spiritual ego". Many times here people without much spiritual practice are quicker to see. Humble openness and a burning desire to see truth is the name of the game. So instead of using energy on fabricating ideas about the process (it will happen anyways, but leave it be): JUST look, JUST feel, JUST engage the questions and exercises, NOW. Leave aside ideas about you, meditation, past, future. While we are doing this process

OK?


What feelings and thoughts come up about the process so far? Just write without Censoring.

[matanz]

Hi Elad, sorry for the delay. Took the days to reflect on this.

Yesterday I had another glimpse. It's interesting. I was doing something very physical and paid close attention to the sensations. I also noticed the thoughts happening, as if it's an invisible layer infront of me, a veil. Took it very slow.

Suddenly, there was just the looking. The feeling and the ongoing "me" sensation was dropped. It felt like eternal peace - like nobody was ever born and there was just the experience. It gradually came back afterwards but I'm taking it very lightly - force is irrelevant here. "trying" is irrelevant. seeking that seems irrelevant, yet there is still looking to be done.

The labelling exercise did something very subtle when done - it suddenly felt a bit expansive and simple. It sort of directs the attention to simplicity, like there's nothing to do. hard to describe. The train of doing continues very fast afterwards, it has a momentum.

I will share that the ongoing situation in Israel is causing some stress and tension in me. And also thoughts on how can this process unfold in this situation, and is liberation supposed to relive me of that. But in retrospect, it's all thoughts that just pop up occasionally during the day, which is an interesting insight. I never chose to think about it, but it comes when watching the news, randomly, etc.

[Elad]

Hi Matan, beautiful!

Things are moving...

I understand about the situation here in Israel. Honor those feelings and anything that needs to be dealt with or thought through on a practical level. Feel free to leave the inquiry and return to it as feels appropriate within the unfolding reality. No pushing.

Here are a couple of exercises for you to do when it feels right:


Word “I”

Let’s look at thought and the content of thought a little more,
Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?
Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?
Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?” Is the thought, "I exist" you?
Is the thought "I" you?



Spoon exercise

The following exercise is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual experience and imagined experience.
Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Look and feel at ​the imaginary spoon for a while.
Then open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life? So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?
Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.
Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same? How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?
Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:

Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any
of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?
Is it an image or is it an actual entity?
The questions are really just there for you to consider as you do the exercise, I do not need detailed answers to each one, just some reflections on how the exercise went for you, or if you have any questions or need any clarification.

[matanz]

Shalom Elad, took a break from posting,
I'm back

Word “I”

Let’s look at thought and the content of thought a little more,
Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?
Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?
Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?” Is the thought, "I exist" you?
Is the thought "I" you?

At first, I gave an answer right away, to myself, a force of habit. But then I tried to really observe, or tune into it, before concluding.
When I say to myself, Ani Kayam, It feels like me, since it's in my voice in my head, there's a certain feeling there, familiar once, which I can't define. There are many analysis thoughts about this after I say that, which feel like "I" initiated. but I give it 2-3 seconds and it's gone, with silence remaining..


Spoon-

Then open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life? So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?


There was no spoon. I looked at my hand which I imagined to have a spoon, but I only saw my hand. it never existed.


Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same? How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

The image was very weak, it disappeared and I really needed to make an effort to imagine it in my head.
The real spoon is cold, with different textures (sensations) and solid look.

I'm having a hard time with the image of "me", I don't think I see any image..
But when really paying attention to what rises when I say Ani, there's all sorts of weird things rising, unrelated, some emotional sensations (like a sting of anxiety I think?)

[Elad]

Welcome back. Good good!

Say Ani many times and pay close attention what is it that it *seemingly* refers to.

What sensations, thoughts, images.

Then look are any of these sensations, thoughts, images in fact a real continuous agent that can think and choose and do things?

Do this in many different situations. While alone and with people. Waking up, going to sleep, when relaxed and when stressed, etc.

Let me know what is effortlessly naturally seen.

[matanz]

Hey Elad, Shana Tova!

To be frank I don't think anything is seen. when I say Ani just more thoughts about "me" arise, in my voice, and it feels like I'm initiating them. If I'm honest this is what is seemingly happening, and it feels binding, there's a sensation of binding to the word, a sense of identity. This feels confusing and thoughts about this practice and what's supposed to happen also arise. There are also thoughts about progress with this and how it seems to not do anything.

Toda!

[Elad]

Hi Matan, shana tova.

The clear part of this message, in terms of inquiry, is where you write you don't find anything.

The rest shares beliefs and patterns on a psychological level.

For this process to flow optimally you need to be really curious about the core questions: Does Ani refer to anything? Is there any enduring agent to experience in reality, controlling and deciding what happens?

A lot of your energy is going to self evaluation, process evaluation and analysis. All these will never lead to awakening and they reconstruct in real time the belief in/"feeling of" identity.

The questions for you now are:

1) Are you willing to give up all expectations what this will give you, except to see what is true? Even if it will give you nothing else then clarity?

2) Give more attention to what you really want and fear. You have to be fully honest if you want truth without conditions. If this is not what you really want, this will stop the process.

3) Do you have concerns you need to ask about?

[Elad]

?

:)

[matanz]

Hey Elad, thanks for following up.

The search/inquiry/process which have been going on for months has really taken on it's toll and I've stopped for a while. Really strong suffering.

Interestingly, I visited friends and we spoke about meditation and stuff. I then spoke about how everything just happens and there were a few seconds of intense presence.
I'm trying to rest a bit as the constant analysis and stuff really is tiring, the search is tiring, I'm feeling disconnected from life. Strong anxiety a lot of times.

I'm supposed to head on to a months trip to Japan soon, hopefully it will be a good Nikui Rosh and a time for contemplation.

I'll respond to the last message this week I hope, I need to gather my energy..

Chag Samech to you and thanks a lot.
Matan