Ready to see clearly

[Becca]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The 'self' we take ourselves to be is a thought -- an idea that was taught and reinforced throughout life. A separate entity with power over life doesn't exist in reality, it is simply a persistent illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for support in deeply realizing that there is no self. I know this logically, but the sense of a self still seems to be operating. Suffering still happens.
I would like support in examining this over and over until it is crystal clear.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect some sense of finality to this search. I've seen over and over that there is no separate, doer self. There simply can't be and one has never been found. Yet, "I" am offended, reactive, defensive. There must be something yet to see through.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have about 20 years of experience with spirituality in general, and 5 years of experience exploring nonduality and no-self.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hi Becca, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU :)

I expect some sense of finality to this search. I've seen over and over that there is no separate, doer self. There simply can't be and one has never been found. Yet, "I" am offended, reactive, defensive. There must be something yet to see through.

What do you do when you feel these kinds of difficult emotions?

What's wrong right now?

[Becca]

Thank you for responding, Tyler!

What do you do when you feel these kinds of difficult emotions?

When those emotions are felt, there are often actions taken to lessen or resolve them such as defending myself, trying to change circumstances, trying to be heard and understood by others.

The uncomfortable feelings aren’t resolved while I’m doing all of these things. Maybe they are made worse, who knows?

I guess this is what I think would be different if I deeply saw there is no separate self. Would all of those actions and all of that resistance still happen? I don’t know but I sort of thought it wouldn’t.

What's wrong right now?

Nothing is wrong with right now. There is thinking assuming it should or could be different.

Thank you for looking at this with me.

[ty0]

When those emotions are felt, there are often actions taken to lessen or resolve them such as defending myself, trying to change circumstances, trying to be heard and understood by others.

The uncomfortable feelings aren’t resolved while I’m doing all of these things. Maybe they are made worse, who knows?

I guess this is what I think would be different if I deeply saw there is no separate self. Would all of those actions and all of that resistance still happen? I don’t know but I sort of thought it wouldn’t.

Next time you feel them, just feel them. They're definitely made worse by you trying to avoid them. And this resistance feels awful, doesn't it?

Nothing is wrong with right now. There is thinking assuming it should or could be different.

But it shouldn't and couldn't be different, because it isn't different. You see how this is just imagination? Imagination about something other than THIS? But what is there really apart from THIS?

Try this:
Meditate and drop in the question "What's here that's not a thought?" If you have doubts about whether you're doing it correctly, note that these doubts are thoughts and return to the question. If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question. If you get frustrated, note that you're believing a thought like "this isn't working" or something similar and return to the question. Let me know how that works out for ya

[Becca]

Thank you, Tyler.

I did the meditation. What's here that's not thought? The question has a way of quieting the mind momentarily. Seeing is here. Color, shapes, movement. Sound, smell, taste, sensation.

There is sometimes a space between thoughts that feels alive.

Thought says it would be nice to attend there more. That's thought though :)

[ty0]

Sounds great :)

Seeing is here. Color, shapes, movement. Sound, smell, taste, sensation.

What is "seeing"? Is there "seeing" apart from the colours and shapes? Carefully check your experience.

There is sometimes a space between thoughts that feels alive.

Notice that when the aliveness is noticed while doing the practice, that this noticing is also a thought.

Thought says it would be nice to attend there more. That's thought though :)

Spend some more time doing this. Another very enjoyable practice (or non-practice) is sky-gazing. You just gaze at the sky with no goal until the labels fall away. Labels like clouds, colours, etc.. We often miss seeing because we see labels instead of what's actually seen.

[Becca]

It's clear that there is no seer. Only the seen.

It does still feel like there is a seer that is "me". But I have searched and continue to not find a seer. If I follow where seeing appears to happen it's in the eyes or behind the eyes or in the brain. But even if the eyes or brain have something to do with seeing (which is a learned assumption, not from my immediate experience -- I don't even know there is a brain if I'm only looking at direct experience), where is the seer there? Am I the eyes? That can't be.

This is landing more deeply in the last 24 hours. Even if eyes and brain have some role in seeing, which I don't know for sure, where/what am I? Where/what is THE SEER in that equation? There isn't one. There's no little woman sitting behind the eyes, seeing via them. What I feel as "me" is definitely not eyes or brain.

The experience thought calls "me" often seems to be something like an outline of the body. It's almost like "I" am seeing from within this body, there is a perspective that arises that feels like me. But I can't be that perspective. There's nothing there. And there is no one to be found within this body.

I don't know if this makes any sense but it's getting weirder and weirder. Thanks for your pointers, Ty.

[ty0]

Hey Becca, how have you been feeling recently?

ut I have searched and continue to not find a seer. If I follow where seeing appears to happen it's in the eyes or behind the eyes or in the brain.

Even when you follow where seeing appears to happen, are you actually exploring anything in direct experience, or are you just imagining some space where there are eyes, then imagining going behind the eyes, then imagining some image of a brain? Is there such a thing as a "search" apart from thought/imagination?

This is landing more deeply in the last 24 hours. Even if eyes and brain have some role in seeing, which I don't know for sure, where/what am I? Where/what is THE SEER in that equation? There isn't one. There's no little woman sitting behind the eyes, seeing via them. What I feel as "me" is definitely not eyes or brain.

How do you even know there are "eyes" from direct experience? Even if you look at a mirror, isn't "eyes" and "your face" just some learned thought-labels on top of arbitrary colours and shapes?

The experience thought calls "me" often seems to be something like an outline of the body. It's almost like "I" am seeing from within this body, there is a perspective that arises that feels like me. But I can't be that perspective. There's nothing there. And there is no one to be found within this body.

Similarly... what body? Close your eyes and feel the sensations, are they localised in any way? If they feel localised, is that not just you imagining some mental map and assigning sensations to imagined locations on that imagined map?

2 exercises for you to try:
1) Stare at your face in the mirror. What is "your face"? Stare until the labels drop.
2) Close your eyes and feel the sensations. Where are the sensations? Are they anywhere? What is "where"?

[Becca]

Thank you, Tyler.

I want to do the staring at "my face" exercise more. I did it a little bit and it feels very powerful. Very cool when identification with that image begins to drop.

And I really love the other one, feeling sensation with eyes closed. I've actually been doing that every morning and night in my bed right before and after sleep for over a year. I can remember that sensation used to feel contained in "my body" and it really doesn't anymore. This is after a long time of experimenting. That exercise has been so helpful. 

I don't experience "eyes" in direct experience. It's funny that I saw there was no brain in direct experience, nor do I have any direct indication at all that a brain exists in this round thing called "my head". It's all learned. I've only seen brains in pictures and once in a jar, and that was only a brain because someone told me it was, which means it wasn't a brain at all in direct experience. I missed that with eyes though. Eyes seemed more direct but nope -- same thing. 

There is no thing called "search" or "searching" in direct experience. Only thought coming and going. 

It feels like a very solidly known fact that there is no me, but there is no relief from this. No pop that I've heard about. I feel I've known this intellectually for several years, but something seems to be missing. I know I've also heard there won't be a pop and may not be relief. I've heard a lot of contradictory messages about that. None of that is here in direct experience/reality. It's all theory and concept. In direct experience, there is no me. I guess that's what I know.  

[ty0]

It feels like a very solidly known fact that there is no me, but there is no relief from this. No pop that I've heard about. I feel I've known this intellectually for several years, but something seems to be missing. I know I've also heard there won't be a pop and may not be relief. I've heard a lot of contradictory messages about that. None of that is here in direct experience/reality. It's all theory and concept. In direct experience, there is no me. I guess that's what I know.

Yep. Just expectations (thought) from memory (thought) about what you've heard/read. In direct experience, only direct experience.

Here's a practice/non-practice similar to feeling the sensations, but with the visual field:
Sky-gazing. You just gaze at the sky with no goal until the labels fall away. Labels like clouds, colours, etc.. We often miss a lot because we see labels instead of what's actually seen. If you feel any effort, drop it.

I'd like you to spend a bit of time on this everyday if possible. It's quite beautiful.

How have you been feeling recently?

[Becca]

I have been doing this exercise with the sky and other things as well.

Often, things go sort of flat. What was the sky or the tree or whatever is just a patch of color. No depth, not "over there", just flat.

When that happens, there is a sense of every "thing" (including "me") disappearing in a sense and just an aliveness or existence is present. This is after-the-fact reporting on it, but those are the best words I can find to describe it.

[ty0]

Sounds cool. Do you want to schedule a call some time? I think it's good timing

[Becca]

Maybe, thanks. Writing tends to me a little easier for me in the way it helps me to go away and really look and then report back.

Could you help me look at this sense of "me"?

I know there is no me. And experience is still largely filtered through that perspective for sure. I'm not sure where to go with this to step through the gate and know without doubt.

Can you help me there? Thank you!

[ty0]

Why? What do you want out of it?

[Becca]

Truth.

An end to, or at least less, suffering.