I want to break free!

[Sonofnature]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

A few months ago, it became very clear that the person/identity I thought I was, is just a bundle of stories and assumptions based on the conditioning that is here. When I look for a self behind thoughts, feelings, and sensations, I cannot find one. Yet, there is a magnetic center that is observing and claiming them, that is felt like a self.

What are you looking for at LU?

I am looking for the end of suffering. Seeking has consumed my life for the past 15 years. I have been and still am utterly obsessed with seeing the truth clearly and permanently. It is clear that I am not in the driverseat of this process and I am desperate to break through the walls of illusion so that I can get on with my life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

I don't have any expectaions, but I have hope for some help to find and questions the beliefs about self that I have not been able to find on my own. I think doubt might be one a big thing that is holding me back, so perhaps a guide that is experienced with dealing with doubt would probably be good.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

After reading The Power of Now many years ago, motivated by intense suffering, I realized for the first time that I am not my thoughts, feelings, or sensations. Since that time, I began to seek for the truth of who I am in order to be able to address my suffering. My seeking took me on a journey through self-help, psychology, buddhism, kriya yoga, new age, esoteric philosophy, mysticism and advaita vedanta. I have had a hard time sticking to any meditation practice, but contemplating and self-inquiry have been a big part of my journey.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hi Sonofnature, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU :). Let me know your name if you'd like me to call you that.

Yet, there is a magnetic center that is observing and claiming them, that is felt like a self.

What magnetic center? What observing? How is this experienced?

I am looking for the end of suffering. Seeking has consumed my life for the past 15 years. I have been and still am utterly obsessed with seeing the truth clearly and permanently.

There's no "end of suffering". THIS is everything there ever was and ever will be. There's only a thought ABOUT "the end of suffering", and the thought that you can "get" that somehow. It's important to distinguish between the content of thoughts and what there actually is. Like "there is awareness" vs "there is a thought that says there is awareness". What is there apart from this?

I don't have any expectaions, but I have hope for some help to find and questions the beliefs about self that I have not been able to find on my own. I think doubt might be one a big thing that is holding me back, so perhaps a guide that is experienced with dealing with doubt would probably be good.

What do you doubt? You're looking for help to find/get something that isn't here. Have you ever "looked for" sound? No, because it's already here, isn't it? Is there actually anything you have to go find in order to achieve some state that isn't THIS? Or is there only the imagination of it? I guess the question is, if you don't have the thought about it, does it actually exist?

[ty0]

Here's a particularly helpful exercise for noticing thought:
Meditate and drop in the question "What's here that's not a thought?" If you have doubts about whether you're doing it correctly, note that these doubts are thoughts and return to the question. If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question. If you get frustrated, note that you're believing a thought like "this isn't working" or something similar and return to the question. Let me know how that works out for ya

[Sonofnature]

Hi Tyler!

My name is Marius. I appreciate your time and guidance.

What magnetic center? What observing? How is this experienced?

In observing, there is looking at whatever that's in attention. Whatever is in attention, thoughts, feelings, or sensations, can sometimes just come and go without further engagement, and sometimes be "pulled in" or get hooked in on the "magnetic center" I am talking about. This magnetic center feels like what is perceived as a feeling of "I".

There's no "end of suffering". THIS is everything there ever was and ever will be. There's only a thought ABOUT "the end of suffering", and the thought that you can "get" that somehow. It's important to distinguish between the content of thoughts and what there actually is. Like "there is awareness" vs "there is a thought that says there is awareness". What is there apart from this?

"Suffering" are thoughts and labels attached to intense sensations that is perceived as resistance to what is. There is an intellectual understanding of this, but still the same resistance going on. Sometimes when seeing this in action, and I am staying with the sensation only, without the label or the story around it, it can fade, but it keeps coming back. There is a belief that this resistance to what is can go away at some point.

What do you doubt? You're looking for help to find/get something that isn't here. Have you ever "looked for" sound? No, because it's already here, isn't it? Is there actually anything you have to go find in order to achieve some state that isn't THIS? Or is there only the imagination of it? I guess the question is, if you don't have the thought about it, does it actually exist?

Sometimes there is a belief that I have already seen through the self and sometimes there is doubt because I still can get pulled into thoughts like "I am suffering" when I still can get sucked into beliefs. There is a belief that staying and accepting whatever is in the moment would relieve the suffering, but I keep getting sucked into resistance.

I will meditate on your question and let you know how it goes.

[ty0]

Hi Marius

In observing, there is looking at whatever that's in attention.

What looking? When there's the sight of a tree, is there also seeing of the tree? When there's a sound, is there also the hearing of that sound? Look closely at your direct experience.

"Suffering" are thoughts and labels attached to intense sensations that is perceived as resistance to what is. There is an intellectual understanding of this, but still the same resistance going on. Sometimes when seeing this in action, and I am staying with the sensation only, without the label or the story around it, it can fade, but it keeps coming back. There is a belief that this resistance to what is can go away at some point.

Do you see that now you're resisting that resistance? 😂😂
Isn't that how the suffering propagates?

Sometimes there is a belief that I have already seen through the self and sometimes there is doubt because I still can get pulled into thoughts like "I am suffering" when I still can get sucked into beliefs. There is a belief that staying and accepting whatever is in the moment would relieve the suffering, but I keep getting sucked into resistance.

So let go of the belief that you've already seen through self. That doesn't mean to replace it with the belief that you haven't seen through self. All this you're talking about is just judgement and interpretation. When you look NOW at your direct experience, is there such a thing as "having seen through self" or "not having seen through self"? Before you think you're suffering, are you suffering?

[Sonofnature]

What looking? When there's the sight of a tree, is there also seeing of the tree? When there's a sound, is there also the hearing of that sound? Look closely at your direct experience.

In direct experience, the tree is just shapes and colors. Tree is just a label. When there is sound, there is just sounding. Having said this, there is still a tendency to automatically and subtly label the tree and to interpret the sound.

Do you see that now you're resisting that resistance? 😂😂
Isn't that how the suffering propagates?

Yes, I see that. 😅 I had an insight today when reflecting on situations that brings up the most intense feelings of resistance, which is when I need to perform something that can or will be evaluated by someone. There is a deep belief that I am dumb, and an intense fear of being found out. Even though friends have often commented on my intellectual ability, I still don't believe them. I also see that this is connected to my sense of lack of worthiness.

So let go of the belief that you've already seen through self. That doesn't mean to replace it with the belief that you haven't seen through self. All this you're talking about is just judgement and interpretation. When you look NOW at your direct experience, is there such a thing as "having seen through self" or "not having seen through self"? Before you think you're suffering, are you suffering?

In direct experience, there is no judgement or interpretation, though judgement and interpretation can happen and sometimes hook me into thoughts.

[ty0]

In direct experience, the tree is just shapes and colors. Tree is just a label. When there is sound, there is just sounding. Having said this, there is still a tendency to automatically and subtly label the tree and to interpret the sound.

So what is looking then?

Yes, I see that. 😅 I had an insight today when reflecting on situations that brings up the most intense feelings of resistance, which is when I need to perform something that can or will be evaluated by someone. There is a deep belief that I am dumb, and an intense fear of being found out. Even though friends have often commented on my intellectual ability, I still don't believe them. I also see that this is connected to my sense of lack of worthiness.

Unfortunately you're going to have to feel that to get through it. Sit in silence and bring up the thoughts "I'm not good enough" and "I'm dumb". Try to feel what comes up when you do this. What other thoughts arise after those? What kind of emotions pop up? Go in with an attitude of exploration. If you do this exploration with the intention of getting rid of those emotions and beliefs, only resistance will come up.

Here's a particularly helpful exercise for noticing thought:
Meditate and drop in the question "What's here that's not a thought?" If you have doubts about whether you're doing it correctly, note that these doubts are thoughts and return to the question. If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question. If you get frustrated, note that you're believing a thought like "this isn't working" or something similar and return to the question. Let me know how that works out for ya

How has this been going?

[Sonofnature]

So what is looking then?

Nothing is looking. There's just seeing and thoughts about what is seen.

Unfortunately you're going to have to feel that to get through it. Sit in silence and bring up the thoughts "I'm not good enough" and "I'm dumb". Try to feel what comes up when you do this. What other thoughts arise after those? What kind of emotions pop up? Go in with an attitude of exploration. If you do this exploration with the intention of getting rid of those emotions and beliefs, only resistance will come up.

There isn't much coming up when I bring up the thoughts "I'm not good enough" and "I'm dumb". I did feel a pleasant sensation that was interpreted as an energetic release in the stomach area when I had the insight about the fear of being dumb. The reason I mention this is that there is a story playing that questions if this might have "done the job" already. There is also a doubt that questions this story with a new story of maybe there is something more to that fear that hasn't been seen.

Here's a particularly helpful exercise for noticing thought:
Meditate and drop in the question "What's here that's not a thought?" If you have doubts about whether you're doing it correctly, note that these doubts are thoughts and return to the question. If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question. If you get frustrated, note that you're believing a thought like "this isn't working" or something similar and return to the question. Let me know how that works out for ya

How has this been going?
[/quote]
What came up here was silence and a thought about noticing the silence, and a thought about getting back to the question, and then a thought that there is sensations in the body, and a thought about sensations actually being thoughts, and a thought about getting back to the question, and then silence, and then a thought that concluded that there is nothing here that's not a thought.

[Sonofnature]

Also... I noticed that same sensation of what I label as fear in the stomach area while posting my previous reply. Only not as intense... That was interesting. A story also comes up while I am writing this that it seems to be about the response being "wrong" somehow. Maybe a subtle form of perfectionism? I'm not sure... I also notice a thought about wanting to reject all stories because they are false. That is also interesting...

[ty0]

There's just seeing and thoughts about what is seen.

What is seeing then? In your experience, is there seeing apart from the seen?

The reason I mention this is that there is a story playing that questions if this might have "done the job" already. There is also a doubt that questions this story with a new story of maybe there is something more to that fear that hasn't been seen.

Hahah. Maybe so, maybe not. But these thoughts that you're having have deeper beliefs behind them. You're talking about this fear as if it's a real thing, but do you experience it now? Do you see that you're not having thoughts about the fear, but rather thoughts about the thought of the fear? The mind is very sneaky in reifying things that don't exist, things like memories and fantasies of the future. What is now is all there is.

and then a thought that concluded that there is nothing here that's not a thought.

Good that you see this is a thought. What about truth? Can any thought be true or false?
After that conclusion thought, go back to the practice.

A story also comes up while I am writing this that it seems to be about the response being "wrong" somehow. Maybe a subtle form of perfectionism? I'm not sure... I also notice a thought about wanting to reject all stories because they are false.

Are all stories false? Is that not another story? What is true/false? Can anything be correct or wrong?

[Sonofnature]

What is seeing then? In your experience, is there seeing apart from the seen?

It depends on what is seen. Sometimes seeing is not apart from the seen and other times, especially if I look at another lifeform, there is also an experience of feelings that I could label as "self-conscious" or a sort of subject > object energy, if that makes sense. Of course, I could break this down to thoughts and sensations on an intellectual level, but experientially, that is what is happening.

Hahah. Maybe so, maybe not. But these thoughts that you're having have deeper beliefs behind them. You're talking about this fear as if it's a real thing, but do you experience it now? Do you see that you're not having thoughts about the fear, but rather thoughts about the thought of the fear? The mind is very sneaky in reifying things that don't exist, things like memories and fantasies of the future. What is now is all there is.

I see what you are saying and there is awareness of this most of the time, but when I am trying to relate to you a common experience, which I understand belongs to the past or future and so it doesn't exist, I have to use language that goes into the "past / future".

Good that you see this is a thought. What about truth? Can any thought be true or false?
After that conclusion thought, go back to the practice.

A thought is a thought. It is neither true or false. It is what is happening.

Are all stories false? Is that not another story? What is true/false? Can anything be correct or wrong?

That is true, it is indeed another story. When contemplating your question, I can see that it is a belief that became a part of my conditioning as a result of an insight about how stories make up such a big part of identity. So to answer your question, nothing is correct or wrong. whatever is happening, is happening. It is what it is.

[ty0]

Hi Marius, how have you been feeling?

It depends on what is seen. Sometimes seeing is not apart from the seen and other times, especially if I look at another lifeform, there is also an experience of feelings that I could label as "self-conscious" or a sort of subject > object energy, if that makes sense. Of course, I could break this down to thoughts and sensations on an intellectual level, but experientially, that is what is happening.

When this subject-object thought comes up, ask yourself how can there be a subject? If both the subject and the subject-object relationship are within experience, are these not objects with certain labels and flavours? It gets pretty funny, because a subject can only be experienced as an object, no? When you say "self-conscious", what does the word 'self' refer to? What are you conscious of?

That is true, it is indeed another story. When contemplating your question, I can see that it is a belief that became a part of my conditioning as a result of an insight about how stories make up such a big part of identity. So to answer your question, nothing is correct or wrong. whatever is happening, is happening. It is what it is.

Exactly


Along with the "What's not a thought?" meditation, here's another practice/non-practice. Give it a shot:
Sky-gazing. You just gaze at the sky with no goal until the labels fall away. Labels like clouds, colours, etc.. We often miss a lot because we see labels instead of what's actually seen.

[Sonofnature]

Hi Marius, how have you been feeling?

It's a bit weird to answer questions like this now. I haven't been feeling anything. 😅 But there have been more feelings of peace and contentment than usual. Less reactive movements... How about you?

When this subject-object thought comes up, ask yourself how can there be a subject? If both the subject and the subject-object relationship are within experience, are these not objects with certain labels and flavours? It gets pretty funny, because a subject can only be experienced as an object, no? When you say "self-conscious", what does the word 'self' refer to? What are you conscious of?

This is good stuff. It reminds me of a shift I had while watching one of the recordings from Vince's group meets last night and there was a shift in perspective in terms of being able to see everything I experience both externally and internally as "me" for want of a better word, so there is no internal/external, and then I could also see the total emptiness of everything. There was also the realization that the I-feeling is constructed when I look for it. If immersion in experience happens, the I-feeling is not there. Does that make sense?

Along with the "What's not a thought?" meditation, here's another practice/non-practice. Give it a shot:
Sky-gazing. You just gaze at the sky with no goal until the labels fall away. Labels like clouds, colours, etc.. We often miss a lot because we see labels instead of what's actually seen.

Ok, cool. I'll give it a try.

[ty0]

It's a bit weird to answer questions like this now. I haven't been feeling anything. 😅 But there have been more feelings of peace and contentment than usual. Less reactive movements... How about you?

I'm great, haha

This is good stuff. It reminds me of a shift I had while watching one of the recordings from Vince's group meets last night and there was a shift in perspective in terms of being able to see everything I experience both externally and internally as "me" for want of a better word, so there is no internal/external, and then I could also see the total emptiness of everything. There was also the realization that the I-feeling is constructed when I look for it. If immersion in experience happens, the I-feeling is not there. Does that make sense?

Yeah it makes sense. This inside/outside split doesn't make sense to me at all. Inside or outside of what? Can you find any "different spaces" or any boundaries in your experience?

[Sonofnature]

I'm great, haha

Small talk was never my strong suit, and it has gotten even worse after not knowing who I am anymore. 😅

Yeah it makes sense. This inside/outside split doesn't make sense to me at all. Inside or outside of what? Can you find any "different spaces" or any boundaries in your experience?

Has it never made sense to you? 😁
It's a challenging one to describe, but I'll try. So if there is looking and inquiring into if there are any boundaries, the experience is that there's not. If there is just looking, but no inquiry, there is sort of a subtle habit of believing I am the body, and the body is the boundary between the internal and external. If there is no looking, only total immersion in direct experience, this isn't even an issue. Does that make sense?