Assitance seeing through separate self :)

[willwsheas]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
In my experience, it is very evident that there are thoughts, sensations, hearing, smelling, and seeing. I am unable to locate a self outside of these who manages/chooses any of these possible experiences. However, I find that doubt often creeps in and I wonder where my hangups/fixations are.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for someone to point out my fixations/doubts in order to allow me to access deeper insights. While I feel that some sort of shift has occurred in experience, I'm also looking for confirmation of that (there's the doubt popping up!). Largely, I would simply love some guidance from someone who has gone a little deeper than I have so far.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I try not to expect anything! However, I suppose I would hope for pointers and advice for practices that aid in such a journey (should that be necessary). I have never spoken directly to someone who is also actively going through this process.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
My interest in freedom from suffering began after a mushroom trip I had. Previously, I had absolutely no idea that such peaceful and expansive states were humanly possible, as I had suffered from quite crippling anxiety and depression.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hey willwsheas, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU :). Let me know your name if you want me to call you that.

Previously, I had absolutely no idea that such peaceful and expansive states were humanly possible, as I had suffered from quite crippling anxiety and depression.

Firstly, are you still suffering from crippling anxiety and depression? If so, please look into getting professional help before continuing this dialogue.

However, I find that doubt often creeps in and I wonder where my hangups/fixations are.

What are your doubts about? What kind of questions run through your head?

While I feel that some sort of shift has occurred in experience, I'm also looking for confirmation of that (there's the doubt popping up!).

So if I say "yes, you've had a shift", you can pat yourself on the back and feel good about it? And if I say "no", you can put on your seeking cap and get to work on getting that shiny thing called awakening? Any story, be it "I've had a shift" or "I haven't had a shift" is just a view for you to believe. None of that actually means anything about what's here now. It sounds like you're looking for an evaluation so you can know what to do next, but this is all just thought BS 😂😂. Same thing as "there is a self" vs. "there is no self", just 2 sides of the same coin. Adopting 1 belief as opposed to the other isn't gonna get you anywhere closer to freedom.

My interest in freedom from suffering began after a mushroom trip I had. Previously, I had absolutely no idea that such peaceful and expansive states were humanly possible

What's between you and freedom right now? Can you find a "problem" in your current experience that isn't a thought?

[willwsheas]

Thankfully, my anxiety and depression have completely dissolved as of recently. The only doubt I really have is telling myself I haven't gotten "there." I clearly experience life much differently than I did before, but it seems so simple. Unbelievably so. I can tell that believing I have or haven't had an awakening is super unhelpful as well. I cannot find anything keeping me from freedom. I can feel the mind creating definitions for freedom, however, which is what makes me doubt if I have it or not. That being said, it takes no time at all for me to see those doubt thoughts and simply let go of them. It also became clear to me recently that problems don't exist anywhere except in the mind. The natural flow of life has no problems unless I add them myself.

[willwsheas]

Thankfully, my anxiety and depression have completely dissolved as of recently. The only doubt I really have is telling myself I haven't gotten "there." I clearly experience life much differently than I did before, but it seems so simple. Unbelievably so. I can tell that believing I have or haven't had an awakening is super unhelpful as well. I cannot find anything keeping me from freedom. I can feel the mind creating definitions for freedom, however, which is what makes me doubt if I have it or not. That being said, it takes no time at all for me to see those doubt thoughts and simply let go of them. It also became clear to me recently that problems don't exist anywhere except in the mind. The natural flow of life has no problems unless I add them myself.

Also, my name is Will!

[ty0]

Hey Will, that sounds great. Let me pose you some questions now.

What is freedom?

What is truth?

Who are you?

[willwsheas]

Hey Will, that sounds great. Let me pose you some questions now.

What is freedom?

What is truth?

Who are you?

Freedom seems to be a complete dropping of all "caring." (I do not mean dropping of responsibilities, relationships, etc. I just mean the dropping of the self-centered mental baggage which ironically tends to get in the way of doing those things.)

I do not know how to say what truth is. It seems that anything that can be said is not the truth. The second you say something (for example, one's age), it has already changed. I can also tell that language itself is not even an accurate way of describing reality, no matter what words are used (since they're all made-up anyways.) Truth seems to be a living "thing."

I also cannot say who I am. It feels like I am the existence itself. But sometimes even that feels shaky. So I could say that I am.. I am. But sometimes it feels like even the I am is a thought (that I'm not too sure of yet!).

[ty0]

Truth seems to be a living "thing."

Does the word "Truth" refer to a thing? Where is it? Is what "Truth" refers to within your experience?

I also cannot say who I am. It feels like I am the existence itself. But sometimes even that feels shaky. So I could say that I am.. I am. But sometimes it feels like even the I am is a thought (that I'm not too sure of yet!).

"the existence itself", hm, what is this existence you talk about? What does "exist" or "existence" mean? Does sound exist or not exist?

If you discovered that the "I am" sense is thought, and you were 100% sure about it, what would that do for you? If you're 100% sure about something, does that constitute objective knowledge or rock-steady belief? Would "knowing that the I am sense is thought" be any different from "knowing you're an awakened person"?

[ty0]

Also, what is a thought?

[willwsheas]

Truth seems to be a living "thing."

Does the word "Truth" refer to a thing? Where is it? Is what "Truth" refers to within your experience?

I also cannot say who I am. It feels like I am the existence itself. But sometimes even that feels shaky. So I could say that I am.. I am. But sometimes it feels like even the I am is a thought (that I'm not too sure of yet!).

"the existence itself", hm, what is this existence you talk about? What does "exist" or "existence" mean? Does sound exist or not exist?

If you discovered that the "I am" sense is thought, and you were 100% sure about it, what would that do for you? If you're 100% sure about something, does that constitute objective knowledge or rock-steady belief? Would "knowing that the I am sense is thought" be any different from "knowing you're an awakened person"?

Truth does not seem to be a thing at all. Truth is what actually is, where it's clear to me that all thought and interpretation is not what is, but an additive to (or sometimes avoidance of) what is. It's clear that something is here, but labeling it "I am" or existence seems like a label as well. Sound exists, then doesn't exist and is replaced by another sound, over and over. The sense of being is not a thought, but the feeling that it's me that's being seems to be a thought.
I don't mean that I need to know whether or not the I am sense is a thought; but it does feel like an addition to my direct experience. Same as if I were to claim to be an awakened person.
In a way it feels like every "thing" is a thought. But I could say that thoughts are the concepts used to describe what is.

[ty0]

Truth does not seem to be a thing at all. Truth is what actually is, where it's clear to me that all thought and interpretation is not what is, but an additive to (or sometimes avoidance of) what is.

Yes, it's useful to know that thought is usually a way to avoid what's happening, but I'm not sure about calling it an additive. Why do you think that thought is separate from "what is"? Can you find a boundary between thought and, let's say, sound? You've just grouped together the 5 senses (where even are the boundaries between these 5, though?) and labelled that as "Truth", conveniently placing thought outside. Do you see the irony that your creation of this separation between "Truth" and "not-Truth" is something happening as thought, something you'd call "not-Truth" 😂😂😂? So how reliable is this distinction, if it's just another thought of yours?

It's clear that something is here, but labeling it "I am" or existence seems like a label as well.

Where is it? How do you experience it? You may want to try some noticing-thought meditation to get a closer look at this.

Sound exists, then doesn't exist and is replaced by another sound, over and over.

Do you actually know this without referring to memory? Do you think phenomena happen in some linear-time fashion? As soon as you try to grasp sound and analyse it, is it not already gone, leaving you with a memory to think about? If I say sound doesn't exist, does that matter? What does it mean for something TO exist? Is this not just a funny word we slap onto things?

The sense of being is not a thought, but the feeling that it's me that's being seems to be a thought.

Again, I recommend quieting the mind and going to investigate this sense of being more thoroughly. Though, investigating it doesn't mean thinking about it and trying to slap a label of thought/not-thought on it

I don't mean that I need to know whether or not the I am sense is a thought; but it does feel like an addition to my direct experience. Same as if I were to claim to be an awakened person.

Again, why addition? Are your fingers an addition to your hand?

In a way it feels like every "thing" is a thought. But I could say that thoughts are the concepts used to describe what is.

That's a nice definition for you to hold onto and derive some sense of stability from. My theory is:
Thoughts are ice cream sandwiches floating in a soup of spiced rum and cow blood.
Now, doesn't that sound absurd? 😉😉

[willwsheas]

Sorry for lackluster responses here.

You really pierced my spiritual identity, and I'm glad. I don't really have any idea where I stand at this point. There's a feeling of wanting to disregard this whole pursuit funnily enough. I just don't know what to do.

[ty0]

Hey Will,

Is there anything wrong with not knowing where you stand or what to do? Can you know where you stand and what to do, or can you only THINK you know where you stand and what to do?

Disregard the pursuit if you will.. suffering tends to bring people back, though.

My advice is continue questioning all the things you supposedly "know", and investigate this sense of being you talk about.

Also, go gaze at the sky. Take more walks, feel your legs. Spend a good amount of time gazing at the sky. If you have a river nearby, gaze at that, too.

[willwsheas]

It's actually pretty relieving not to know where I stand, in a sense.

I've been spending more time in meditation lately. I had one experience where I began to sort of fall into something? It was a little intense and I ended up backing away from it. I think if that were to happen again, I'll remain with it next time and see what happens. I know I can't really give up on this. I'll continue to inquire and pay more attention.

[ty0]

Also, go gaze at the sky. Take more walks, feel your legs. Spend a good amount of time gazing at the sky. If you have a river nearby, gaze at that, too.

Take some time for this too. Can't stress it enough.

[ty0]

how are things going Will?