Looking for a guide

[warissem]

Good evening

There is much clarity in seeing this pattern of implied "I" yet there is thinking and sensing that is looking for this irrational concept of peace with what is. As I share the doubt I can see it's just the flow of thinking and sensing without labels.

Yes, let the thought " there is thinking and sensing that is looking for this irrational concept of peace with what is." be as it is, a thought. Let it come and go.

There is an expectation of a release and peace with what is. Is it unrealistic to expect that pattern to stop?

Just take it as an expectation, a thought which arises.

Again as I type this I can ask myself who is the "I" that is expecting the pattern to stop?

Good observation. Look and give the answer to your question.
And by the way, is there you, a separate self who's going to look?

Best for you

[Bhn1618]

Again as I type this I can ask myself who is the "I" that is expecting the pattern to stop?

Good observation. Look and give the answer to your question.
And by the way, is there you, a separate self who's going to look?

There is no "I" or separate self that is going to look, if there is looking it will be the movement of attention followed by thoughts.
I don't really ask myself that's just a figure of speech, it's just thoughts arising implying an I.

[warissem]

Good evening

You are doing well. Here is an exercise for you, I wish it will help.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Best for you

[Bhn1618]

Update: I haven't done the exercise yet. I will start doing it today and will report back.

[warissem]

Good afternoon

LOOK at direct experience during the exercise. Don't go to thoughts.

Waiting for your insights

Best for you

[Bhn1618]

How is the movement controlled?

I have no idea. There's reading of the instructions and then there's a sense of agreeing to do it and then it happens.

Does a thought control it?

After reading this question I did it again. It doesn't seem that thought controls it but there does seem to be a sense of intention.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

In direct experience the sensation of the hand moving is experienced. The sense of intention/urge to take the action is felt however it's not clear that it is causal.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Looking at the hand palm down waiting for it to turn over. Thoughts go back and forth saying "Now" "Not now" etc but the hand turns over with and without them.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

It seems that the left is "chosen" more commonly however I have no idea why. It may just be the one that is less busy I don't know.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

There are sensations in the neck when I look for a separate individual however they are not always there as the palm flips up/down.

[warissem]

Good morning

Good observations but here are some comments.

After reading this question I did it again. It doesn't seem that thought controls it but there does seem to be a sense of intention.

In direct experience the sensation of the hand moving is experienced. The sense of intention/urge to take the action is felt however it's not clear that it is causal.

What is meant by "a sense of attention"? Is it a sensation : if it so where is it located? Does a sensation control the movement?
Is it only a thought? LOOK

There are sensations in the neck when I look for a separate individual however they are not always there as the palm flips up/down.

Do you find a separate individual in the sensations?

Here is an exercise for you, I wish it will help.

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.

Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "insert name" is located.
Touch the exact location of "insert name".

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "insert name" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "insert name” (If any).

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

Best for you

[Bhn1618]

I posted a reply a few days ago but it didn't seem to post. I will post again:

What is meant by "a sense of attention"? Is it a sensation : if it so where is it located? Does a sensation control the movement?
Is it only a thought? LOOK

the sense of attention is just what attention is doing. Movement follows attention but there's no evidence that it controls movement. I have no idea how movement is controlled.

Do you find a separate individual in the sensations?

No just sensations which are not even the same each time just roughly in a general area sometimes.

Were you able to find and feel "insert name" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "insert name” (If any).

No, I did not find "Me" like I was able to find hands, feet, torso, and face. I found just sensations and thoughts.
The "me" is used by thoughts as a container/owner/experiencer of sensations but there is no sensation for a me. This container is conceptual only as there is no direct experience of it containing anything.


The guidance points pretty clearly that me is not in direct experience. I can see this yet my thoughts, emotions are continuing on behalf of a me. Does that mean I have not seen clearly enough yet? For example most of my negative emotions throughout the day are all based on fear that "me" as body needs to do things to be safe and be ok. There is sadness for things lost by this "me" that cannot be experienced.
There are even thoughts that even if "me" can't be experienced sensations are experienced so work needs to be done to avoid negative sensations and bring about positive sensations.

[warissem]

Good evening

I will give my commentaries later. Be patient please. Meanwhile, LOOK at your daily activities and SEE if there is an entity, a you doing them.

Best for you

[Bhn1618]

LOOK at your daily activities and SEE if there is an entity, a you doing them.

Surprisingly I spontaneously started doing that a little bit after your amazing hand experiment. I will continue to see if there is an entity doing physical actions.

[warissem]

Good evening

the sense of attention is just what attention is doing.

Is there attention in direct experience?

Movement follows attention but there's no evidence that it controls movement.

What is attention ? Look and describe it for me.

I have no idea how movement is controlled.

There is no you to have an idea. Have you done the exercise about thoughts?

No just sensations which are not even the same each time just roughly in a general area sometimes.

How do you feel to see this?

No, I did not find "Me" like I was able to find hands, feet, torso, and face. I found just sensations and thoughts.
The "me" is used by thoughts as a container/owner/experiencer of sensations but there is no sensation for a me. This container is conceptual only as there is no direct experience of it containing anything.

Great, how do you feel to see this?

The guidance points pretty clearly that me is not in direct experience. I can see this yet my thoughts, emotions are continuing on behalf of a me. Does that mean I have not seen clearly enough yet? For example most of my negative emotions throughout the day are all based on fear that "me" as body needs to do things to be safe and be ok. There is sadness for things lost by this "me" that cannot be experienced.

There is no “me”, no you at the first place. How can a concept “me” lose something?

There are even thoughts that even if "me" can't be experienced sensations are experienced so work needs to be done to avoid negative sensations and bring about positive sensations.

Yes, sensations are here, appearances are here, thoughts are here. What is a negative or a positive sensation without the words “negative” or “positive”?
Look at the raw sensations leaving aside all the labels.
Are you expecting to have only positive sensations after awakening? It is not so.

Best for you

[Bhn1618]

Is there attention in direct experience?

Yes it seems like attention is the change in focus that appears in direct experience.

What is attention ? Look and describe it for me.

Attention is the change in what I am aware of. As I type this attention is on the words being written on the screen. Experience is constantly changing in an action reaction sort of way and attention is what experience is currently focused on.

There is no you to have an idea. Have you done the exercise about thoughts?

I don't know which exercise about thoughts you are referring to, probably not I think.

How do you feel to see this?

There is no separate individual in the sensations they are appearing in awareness yet it feels confusing to see this. It is clear there is no "me" yet there is still lots of energy expended in fear/worry about this separate individual entity and there is pressure to do something about circumstances to be ok. There is no "me" experiencing this fear/worry/pressure they are also just arising and there's an expectation that if this is seen they won't arise as much or if they do they would be more easily experienced and there would be clarity/peace instead of confusion.

Great, how do you feel to see this?

This same confusion as the previous question.

There is no “me”, no you at the first place. How can a concept “me” lose something?

You are right, it can't lose something if it's a concept. What would the direct experience of loss even be besides an experience which is then labelled loss. There still seems to be an expectation of something happening.

Yes, sensations are here, appearances are here, thoughts are here. What is a negative or a positive sensation without the words “negative” or “positive”?
Look at the raw sensations leaving aside all the labels.
Are you expecting to have only positive sensations after awakening? It is not so.

There is a thought of judgement from others, followed by an body sensation labelled fear of judgement. This leads to the sensation of overwhelm. If there is no me then there are no separate others. I expected that seeing that awakening from the false assumption of me would decrease emotions based on it.

Even in the above answer it's noticed that there is no "me" so then what expected this?

[warissem]

Good evening

I read your last post and I am deceived. You think that I am gonna look in your place. No, you have to do the work
of LOOKING AT this separate self which is supposed to manage your life. Even you SEE it
Even you HEAR it
Even you SMELL it
Even you TASTE it
Even you FEEL it as a sensation, a texture.

LOOK AT this I, ME, till the truth about IT is seen. I gave you all the investigations to practice about thoughts, the body, control, etc, ...
Come back with something new.

I wish the best for you

[Bhn1618]

Thanks for your guidance, I will review our messages from the beginning and see what comes up.

[warissem]

Good morning

Yes, great. Be committed to the process.

Waiting for your insights.