Awakening Guidance

[tbone9]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

I had a first momentary glimpse of no-self about 1.5 years ago. After reading Angelo Dilullo's book 6 months ago, my interest and practice took a sharp increase, and I've since had some very vivid, clear experiences of no-self. I've had barely any discussion about this with others, and I'd like to explore more with others that have more experience.
What are you looking for at LU?

Some guidance and validation in my journey to seeing the true nature of existence. Along with guidance, I would also like to meet others that are as interested in this as I am, in order to connect with like-minded people and discuss what I believe is the most fascinating thing I've ever come across!

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

I'm hoping to have the opportunity to describe my background and experiences in detail. Based on this, I'd like to hear from a guide (or guides) to validate my experiences, and to let me know if they think I am on the right track. I'd also love to be pointed towards any resources or guidance that might be particularly helpful with regards to "where I'm at" in my efforts.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I started reading about Buddhism and meditation about 12 years ago when I was in college. I've read maybe 10-15 books on the topic over the years, but never practiced very regularly until the last year or so. In the last 6 months, I've done a lot of guided meditations and un-guided self-inquiry, mostly based on Angelo Dilullo's guidance and teachings.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[filtah]

Hi,

My name is Phil and I would be happy to guide you.

Some guidance and validation in my journey to seeing the true nature of existence. Along with guidance, I would also like to meet others that are as interested in this as I am, in order to connect with like-minded people and discuss what I believe is the most fascinating thing I've ever come across!

Ultimately it's impossible for anyone but themselves to validate the (non)existence of a self!
All I can do is point and then maybe a shift will happen where it will become clear.

This is indeed a fascinating subject, and I understand you wanting to connect, and discuss the subject with others.
However, it’s important to be clear and point out that this dialogue is going to be an investigation into your experience of what you take yourself to be,
not a discussion about the nature of reality or a place to meet like minded people. There are other places for that kind of thing :)

What we will be doing here is looking very closely into your experience to see first hand that the self you take yourself to be is an illusion.

Lots of your expectations are going to be challenged as part of this process.
If you agree and are happy to proceed we can get started.


Ok, some prerequisites:

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Some housekeeping guidelines:

1 .Commitment: When we get started with this inquiry, it’s very important to keep the process rolling.
I ask that you post here at least once a day, or every second day.
If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on direct experience (DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts (not the content).
Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is.
If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses.
It's good practice to copy / paste questions asked into Word, answer them there, then copy / paste back into your thread.
Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!


Communication guidelines:

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written. I’ll usually highlight them in blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it.
Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660


OK, let's get started!


What would you like for me to call you?
Also, what time zone are you in?


To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration.
In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

With love,
Phil

[tbone9]

My name is Phil and I would be happy to guide you.

Thanks Phil! Nice to meet you and I'm looking forward to getting started.

This is indeed a fascinating subject, and I understand you wanting to connect, and discuss the subject with others.
However, it’s important to be clear and point out that this dialogue is going to be an investigation into your experience of what you take yourself to be,
not a discussion about the nature of reality or a place to meet like minded people. There are other places for that kind of thing :)

What we will be doing here is looking very closely into your experience to see first hand that the self you take yourself to be is an illusion.

Lots of your expectations are going to be challenged as part of this process.
If you agree and are happy to proceed we can get started.

Understood! Since posting my original comments, I've read through a number of different exchanges and now have a much better idea of how the forum works. I've read all the housekeeping guidelines and prerequisites. I agree to it all and I'm ready to get started.

What would you like for me to call you?

You can call me Marc

Also, what time zone are you in?

I'm in the Mountain Standard Time (MST) zone

How will life change?

I suspect that in my day to day life, I won't be as tied up in thought-based worries and stories, and that I will be more "in the flow" of present moment experience.

How will you change?

I'd guess that I will feel more at ease in the world, and not feel such a strong compulsion to manage and control the events happening in life for my personal benefit and well-being.

What will be different?

I think the perspective from which I experience life will shift, and I will feel more connected to the present moment, and less tied up in thoughts and stories.

What is missing?

I don't think there is anything missing. I think the conditioning and response patterns that have built up since childhood have resulted in a misunderstanding and misperception in how life is experienced.

Thanks!

[filtah]

Hi Marc,
pleased to meet you!

Great, thanks for all of that.
We can get started, I'd be happy to be your guide :)

Your first answers are a good start.

Let's get right to the point.

What comes up when you read:
There is no self, never was, and never will be. There is nobody who is in control.

With love,
Phil

[tbone9]

What comes up when you read:
There is no self, never was, and never will be. There is nobody who is in control.

What first comes up is: I believe it! Both intellectually, and from direct experience. Some of the experiences I'd say are "peak experiences" and some have been more "normal" experiences while doing inquiry at home or out for a walk.

Next, lots of self-conscious thoughts, and a lot of hesitation and doubt about claiming that I have seen it through direct experience before.

In the spirit of being honest, I'm quite self conscious about coming across here as someone who is naive and overconfident, and overstating what I've seen through direct experience. I certainly have some doubts, but if I'm genuinely trusting my instincts, I'd honestly say that I have experienced seeing through the illusion of self, and am able to "get in touch" with it somewhat reliably with enough attention and focus, at varying levels of depth and clarity. But when I'm not actively focusing my attention in that way, my experience instantly falls back into mind identification.

I'll keep my answers shorter and more to the point from here on out, but that's honestly the main stuff that came up after reading your question!

Best,
Marc

[filtah]

Your answers are great Marc, thanks 🙏

if I'm genuinely trusting my instincts, I'd honestly say that I have experienced seeing through the illusion of self

Great. Can you talk a little more about this?
Specifically the first time this was seen clearly, what happened in your experience?

Also, just a note from my side that I would like to be transparent about. I am not a very experienced guide, although the realisation here is clear since over a year now. I'm working with a very experienced mentor, so you are in good hands, but this may result in my own responses to you being a bit delayed as everything I'm writing is checked and approved first.

With love,
Phil

[tbone9]

Also, just a note from my side that I would like to be transparent about. I am not a very experienced guide, although the realisation here is clear since over a year now. I'm working with a very experienced mentor, so you are in good hands, but this may result in my own responses to you being a bit delayed as everything I'm writing is checked and approved first.

Phil, no worries at all, thanks for letting me know!

Great. Can you talk a little more about this?
Specifically the first time this was seen clearly, what happened in your experience?

Sure, the very first time it was clear was definitely a "peak experience," and I was on a marijuana edible at the time, so I'll describe that, and thought it would also be helpful to describe what it has been like during a more "normal" day-to-day experience just doing inquiry or out walking.

1. The first time (peak experience) - Reading a passage in a book about awakening, it was pointed out that what we see as the past and future are simply just collections of thoughts, and I focused on the question - if that's the case, then what is it that is here right now? I was able to clearly see that there is ONLY right now. My thoughts kind of fell into the background, they were still there, but they weren't "happening to" anyone, it was just more like background music, and the present experience of the senses became much more vivid and clear. I don't know why, but it was very obvious to me that this was all just happening, and that there was no doer making anything happen. It was pretty mind-blowing, I was laughing and just kinda exclaiming to myself how it was all so clear. Also, there wasn't any boundaries between different types of sensory inputs. Feelings, sights, sounds, thoughts, smells were all just here and made of the same "consciousness stuff". The experience lasted for maybe 45 minutes, and had some carry-over to the next day, where I felt noticeably more in the moment then normal, and it was still clear to me that there was no doer. It faded later in the day, and I went back to my normal mode of being mind-identified, but the experience (and a few similar peak experiences in the following weeks/months) definitely left a lasting impression.

2. Normal Inquiry Experience - This is more the type of experience I've been able to touch into somewhat regularly (a few times per week or so, sometimes more) during day-to-day life. It's usually during sitting or walking inquiry, I'll just stare forward and either ask an inquiry question or say a phrase that feels right in that moment (a couple favorites are "whose awareness is this?" "what is this?" or just "I am"). When I'm able to touch into it, it feels like someone turns down the dial on my thoughts a few notches, and turns up the dial on my sensory inputs, so I'm much more "here". Similar (but less intense) than the peak experience, it feels like thoughts are more in the background, and my senses are primary. Sometimes the sense of me being the same as my body fades or falls away. The border between bodily sensations and other sensory inputs around me starts to fade. If I'm walking on a path, sometimes it feels like the perspective of me moving forward on the path blends in with the feeling of the trees and things along the sides of the path moving "through" me. It can kinda feel like I'm "one level up" or "back" in awareness, just watching a movie play out or something. But usually after a few seconds of this, thoughts quickly come back to say "this is it!" or "stay here!" The thoughts kinda always break up the experience to where I don't stay there for more than a few moments at a time. A lot of times, I'll start immediately relating the experience to concepts from books I've read or videos I've watched. Then, I'll soon be back in the typical mind-identified state until the next time.

Sorry for the long post, but I thought it would be relevant to provide the details!

Best,
Marc

[filtah]

These sound like some really wonderful immersions into direct experience Marc, thanks for sharing.

There is an important distinction between an experience like this and a realisation however.

Experiences come and go (they cannot last forever), but the realisation, the seeing of this fact will persist, and cannot be unseen, no matter the current state of experience.

We are not looking for an experience, or a particular state of consciousness with this inquiry, that is not the goal here.

It sounds like you have a lot of clarity here though, regarding direct experience which is good. For this inquiry however, you need to look for the illusion somewhere else, because it can't be found in direct experience.

So, starting from a regular, everyday state of consciousness please answer:

Is there a sense of "I am doing, acting, deciding controlling" ?

With love,
Phil

[tbone9]

There is an important distinction between an experience like this and a realisation however.

Experiences come and go (they cannot last forever), but the realisation, the seeing of this fact will persist, and cannot be unseen, no matter the current state of experience.

Yes makes sense, understood that this is not the goal.

Is there a sense of "I am doing, acting, deciding controlling" ?

Yes, in my regular, everyday state of consciousness there is definitely a sense of "I am doing, acting, deciding, and controlling."

[filtah]

Hi Marc,
Thanks for bearing with me.

Yes, in my regular, everyday state of consciousness there is definitely a sense of "I am doing, acting, deciding, and controlling.

Ok great, in this case we have something to work with :)

We are going to explore this sense of self,
to see if there really a self in it.

In your day to day experience,
when exactly do you feel the sense of self the strongest?

[tbone9]

Hi Phil,

After really questioning it, I've decided to discontinue the guidance here. If I'm being honest, I think I really just need to continue doing inquiry, and look more often and more consistently. I realized I am using a few different things like this site to distract myself. Sometimes I use listening to more videos, reading more books, and participating in things like this site to distract me from just sitting and looking for myself. Hope you can understand that and I apologize for using up your time, thanks for your help here!

Best,
Marc

[filtah]

No worries Marc,
I think it's import to follow your intuition.
If you have found something, a path that works for you that's great, then give yourself to it, without distraction.

Sometimes I use listening to more videos, reading more books, and participating in things like this site to distract me from just sitting and looking for myself

I agree with this too actually, anything can be a distraction, paradoxically, even material meant to wake us up!

But I'd also encourage you to look into your motive here - is it genuinely for avoidance of distraction, or is there some fear underneath?
If so, feel into that, it could be revealing in Itself.

The inquiry here is rooted in "looking for yourself", althogh I expect its different to how you have been practicing. That's OK if it doesn't resonate however. Wishing you the best of luck with your own inquiry, and I'm here if you choose to take it up again.