Looking to be sure I have realized no-self

[Anastacia42]

You're welcome!

[Anastacia42]

Oddly I skipped a major exercise & the guide with all the questions caught it. This may help:


Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Loving,

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy,

So the following occurred:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Seems to be by instinct having read the instructions for the exercise. There's no controller moving the hand. No specific thought is identified at all which provokes the hand to move.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

No idea - again my best answer is some kind of natural velocity of turning for this body determines how fast etc. Left hand was used, this is the dominant hand, no specific choice was thought of prior.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No such individual found.

Best, Em.

[Anastacia42]

Thank you, Em. Hopefully, that's all for now.

I'll let you know.

Thank you,
Stacy

[Anastacia42]

Hi Em,

As far as I and some other guides are concerned, you're complete with what vwe can offer here. But there's one guide who posted:

"Stacy Ann Clark
You give her 1 exercise about control (the palm flipping exercise) that is all. I do not call that exploring the control aspect of experience. For example, she did answer "correctly" but I have no feedback on how that may impacted her everyday life. Is this a pure intellectual understanding? Do you have that information?

I understand that you hate asking more questions because you probably feel that she is done (and apparently other guides too even though she hadn't explored the control aspect.) And that is probably why you use words like *TONS* and *slew* to discourage guides from asking questions.

Why the rush? Why is triggering you to ask questions that can be supportive of her exploration?"

I replied that there's no trigger, your just complete here. There is some discussion on our guide forum about when a client is compete & this conversation happened at the same time.

Do you feel a need to go further here on this forum as described above?

Loving,

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy,

It's hard for me to be objective or have perspective on where this is. Perhaps it's a case of seeing how it unfolds and my taking the advice from the videos and re-reading Ilona's books.

Just further on the hand exercise, when moving the hand I tried to check if there was any connection to thought happening to provoke the hand moving and there was none. Nothing. I even tried 'making thoughts' which ordered the hand to move which was actually quite funny and impossible. It was slightly odd seeing the hand move and really clearly seeing that there was no thought controlling it. Analytical habits kick in and want to know what it is that is moving the hand on reading the instruction - instinct, impulse? Was there a decision inside somewhere that acquiesced to the task? If so, where and what? It's hard to rest until there is understanding about how things actually work.

With the self illusion - what I find is that the past stories feel very very distant and foggy. I see clearly in the actions and reactions of people how their stories/self's are affecting them like reactions, resistance, triggers, ego issues and also taking credit for things like decisions - the last of which is quite funny to see now. Working in a corporate environment is now extremely tedious - more than before. That said, re. the hand exercise, I just felt the urge to state that 'I was always a person who asks 'why?'. Is that still 'selfing' or just habit or just recognition of habit, conditioning or a natural instinct?

It's probable that I would still react to triggers if they come up quickly, but perhaps this is more habitually than really emotionally, and it can be observed quickly.

What really hasn't finalised and what I'm going to focus on are the 'fetter' points such as wants/desires and aversions, perhaps still some fears /doubts that feed ongoing bits of illusion and habitual actions/beliefs. Its hard to give up the 'future' as my focus was fixated on that for 5 decades. Though this has actually softened with what I have read/enquired on so far.

I did so much somatic therapy (the therapist used deep looking like Ilona does) and worked through the various traumas before finding all this, it could be that anything lingering is so subtle, I'm just not noticing it yet to enquire.

There is still a feeling of 'me-ness'. So I plan to re-read the books etc. If I can, I'll join a regular meeting. Found good sources of help with fetters thanks to Ilona's podcasts.

Up to you to judge if I'm done. I can always come back if no real change in say, 6 months right?

Best, Em.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Em,

It's actually up to you to say whether you clearly see there is no separate "self." I can't know what is like for you. can't be inside your mind.

Yes, you could come back if you ever need to. but I agree that fetters are next. One of the later fetters, 8, I think addresses a further more subtle sense of self.

Don't confuse awareness with "self. " Seems tricky, but it really isn't. You've reported a strong shift.

I've posted on our guide forum asking what to do about the stalemate . I'll let you know.

We don't guise all the fetters here. so if that is all that remains, we are complete here.

Loving

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy,
OK, understood. I'm happy to say I'm done then. No worries!

Best, Em.

[Anastacia42]

Thank you, Em. Watch for an email inviting you to our Facebook groups.

Loving,