Looking for a guide :)

[matanz]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I've been into this for a couple years. I've had a few glimpses, on one occasion I could "see" the separate self, the conditioning, rising on it's own. but it's as if the binding was very strong and my awareness became attached again. My understanding is the ephemeral thoughts about myself are not me, but the conditioning is strong..

What are you looking for at LU?
To break free of the illusion that limits me, makes me feel constant fear and doesn't allow me to live life fully
I hope it will help me end the seeking and find who I really am, what is truth, and the heal my trauma

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Not really expect anything, I don't know what to expect. It would be my first time talking about this subject with anybody.
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What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I'd say pretty experience. I had many glimpses, experiences, did some inquiry, meditated.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Elad]

Hi Matanz,

I would be happy to do this inquiry with you. Before we start I wanna check in with you about two things:

1)

Please read the following documents from LU carefully and let me know if you have any questions, doubts or reserveations in regards to them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

2)

I enjoy working with people who are highly motivated for this and want to do exercises/look at questions and stay in the corespondance more or less every day until we finish. This is not about making it rigidly so, exceptions (vacations, times where something else is called for, etc) are fine and in the end we will be guided by a flow beyond our decisions and imagination. So what I am checking in with here, is if this type of engagement feels right and is possible for you?

[Elad]

Ps. As you will read in the LU documents I linked to also, this process will not directly address or heal trauma. It might undo or weaken some of the beliefs or defense mechanisms that keep the trauma in place. That is an opportunity to see and heal, but might at first make things feel more uncomfortable and confusing rather than less. So to be clear, this process is not shadow work and is not a replacement for psychotherapy and other body/mind healing/nurturing modalities, if they are needed.

[matanz]

Hey Elad, toda raba al hahizdamnut

Read everything, thanks

[Elad]

You are welcome! What may I call you? How come you know Hebrew? :)

And now let's start:

Please read and say to yourself the following sentence several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed. Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered. Generally this process will be driven by seeing what is all ready happening, what is all ready the case. What is effortlessly seen while engaging questions and exercises is what is important. What you actually write me is secondary to that.

[matanz]

My name is Matan, and I was born and currently living in Israel :)

At first nothing happened, as I repeated I noticed a very subtle contraction in the chest area. A few more times and I noticed a thought: "What is a separate self?" as if there's is a grasping to understand it.

[Elad]

Hi Matan :)

Okay, good! Please do the exercise with saying the sentence more times, like really "meditate" with it, "go into it", and describe what is just seen...

And please read the following contemplation:


Coloured Socks

There is a big difference between "knowing" (intellectually) that there is nothing to give up, no self, and *seeing* that there is no self, nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[matanz]

Yes, that makes total sense. One is based on thought, memory, and the other is physical, direct evidence using sight, and of course the latter is much more concrete.

I tried a few more times, after about 3-4 times of feeling into it I felt chills around my torso. No thought that I noticed.

[Elad]

Hi Matan, OK!

So, lets continue:

1) Is there anything you experience as being your self or in your control? If yes, what?

2) Do you have an expectations and fears regarding what seeing through the belief in self will be like? Please share even small or childish things, don't speak only from your "most spiritual part" :)

[Elad]

Do you have *any* expectations and fears

[matanz]

1. It feels as if I can control thoughts, not the next unintentional thought, but if sometimes comes up I can think about it- question or whatever. Also there's this thing behind the eyes which I always look from which feels like me, whatever is writing this.

2. Before looking for a guide here, I had one, kind of unintentional spontaneous "backwards step". I didn't look for it but I was looking at what's happening. Suddenly it felt as if my "unhappy" self was "infront" of me, it was kind of observable. I also noticed that feelings just arose conditionally when something happened, but there was something that didn't even ask for it to happen, as if it's just a conditioned response. It was amazing! I was like "holy shit" sorry for the language. then a fear came up and there was kind of an inner fight not to forget this. It felt very clear, peaceful, like undivided peace, like a stone.
But then it kinda gradually rebinded and everything went back to what it is was before. So that glimpse did create an expectation in me, for something like that.
I also have a fear of feeling the very intense fear that might come, an expectation created by reading about the subject. I did experience some in some occasion. I fear of feeling the extreme anxiety that could come.
Also, there's some kind of fear of psychosis - because who am I if I'm not the personality, my likes and dislikes. It feels like I could go crazy because it's diving deep into my psyche.

[Elad]

1. It feels as if I can control thoughts, not the next unintentional thought, but if sometimes comes up I can think about it- question or whatever. Also there's this thing behind the eyes which I always look from which feels like me, whatever is writing this.

Conventionally speaking of course you can analyze and so forth, deliberate thinking will not dissapear. Conventionally speaking we continue to be able to control our speech and walk but not the direction of our blood flow. However here we will look deeper, if there is a separate self/controller behind any of that. To start it off, please do this exercise:


Observing thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

2. Before looking for a guide here, I had one, kind of unintentional spontaneous "backwards step". I didn't look for it but I was looking at what's happening. Suddenly it felt as if my "unhappy" self was "infront" of me, it was kind of observable. I also noticed that feelings just arose conditionally when something happened, but there was something that didn't even ask for it to happen, as if it's just a conditioned response. It was amazing! I was like "holy shit" sorry for the language. then a fear came up and there was kind of an inner fight not to forget this. It felt very clear, peaceful, like undivided peace, like a stone.

That was a great taste into what this is about.

But then it kinda gradually rebinded and everything went back to what it is was before. So that glimpse did create an expectation in me, for something like that.
I also have a fear of feeling the very intense fear that might come, an expectation created by reading about the subject. I did experience some in some occasion. I fear of feeling the extreme anxiety that could come.
Also, there's some kind of fear of psychosis - because who am I if I'm not the personality, my likes and dislikes. It feels like I could go crazy because it's diving deep into my psyche.

Let's look more at this fear.

Do you have any history with psychosis or serious mental illness?

For many of us, the core of a great relationship with fear is:

1) allow it, invite it, feel it, honor it. Allow, feel, ebrace it's force. Feel its "wish" to protect. Develop a love relationship with it, and as with external relationships, be aware you cannot control it's pace, only participate.

2) We will get to (2) a little later.

[matanz]

Mitztaer al ha delay Elad.

Wanted to really sit down and do it and write a detailed response - I'm taking this very seriously, it's pretty much the focus of my life the last year.

Where are they coming from and going to? It sort of feels around my head? In front of me? Everywhere? hard to pinpoint

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? When I just stopped to observe, no, nothing

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? When not "initiating" thoughts by myself - no, absolutely nothing I could do. It were thoughts that felt like me but they just arose, about the situation, the practice.

Can you predict your next thought? 99% No, but sometimes my conditioning is so strong I can feel a certain thought coming because it's the same thought everytime, lol

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? Nope

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts? Nope

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? Well, kinda? But if we are talking about this practice - no chance

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Absolutely no way

> Do you have any history with psychosis or serious mental illness?

No whatsoever. Never had nothing besides ADHD.

1. That's beautiful. love it

2. Ok :)


תודה רבה, ממש. מעריך מאוד את הזמן שאתה משקיע

[Elad]

Hi Matan, it's perfect you take the time to do it wholeheartedly and spaciously. Quality over quantity/speed in this :) And thanks for the appreciation - appreciate it :)

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? Well, kinda? But if we are talking about this practice - no chance

Lets investigate this "kinda" some more. Step by step. Here is an exercise for starters:

Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'insert name' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?


Regarding thoughts: when deliberate thought takes place, it feels like there is control and choice. If I ask you what is 3 times 4 times 2? You will experience the choice to calculate and the way of doing the calculation (try it). But what decided to actually do it (or not)? What decided to have that way of calculating available? If you saw or didn't see images as you did this, where did that come from? Buttom line: there is the feeling of intentional action, and the feeling of control, this continues on the relative level. What we work with here is to make aware if there is any true control(-ler) behind when it takes place and how it takes place.

Try generating a random sequence of numbers (2, 14, 12, 55, 55, 789...) Notice where each number comes from. Do the same with a sequence of numbers and images (1, baloon, 14, boobs, 33, year long summer, 17...). Again be open and curious and see, where does choice and image and creation come from?

[matanz]

I don't know if water is an entity at all, but that's what language suggest. But in the case of water, it doesn't get to have a say, it just what it is. The stream is water, a stream is just what we use to describe water in movement.

1 +2. It seems decisions are being taken as part of circumstances - prior knowledge, preferences etc.
And there seems to be an orchestrator which accumulated all of these, that gets to make the decisions based on the parameters at hand. But if it's deconstructed, the orchestrator is "me", a thought that is in first person, has the familiar voice of mine. There does seem to be a someone, seemingly. As long as I can remember he was the one that makes decisions, and it feels like he is constant. But that's a thought thats just arising. Confusing. There is something that knows these thoughts happens and it's feels like me, that I'm making a choice.

3. Yes, it seems that Matan is responsible to make things happen - brush the teeth in the morning, work, eat, etc.

The thoughts just seems to arise, in the number example and also for example when you see somebody you know - a friend, usually some thought arises with what to say based on the context of the relationship, memory etc. It just happens out of thin air.