Looking to be sure I have realized no-self

[Anastacia42]

Hi Em

We have a question:

There are a couple of things I want to make sure that are not more than just language...

1. "my subconscious gave me a push in a dream at 2.30am" - What is the "subconscious" and how does it do things? Does it think, see...? Is there anything that is not experienced consciously (i.e. subconsciously) or that is assumed?

2. "Even without a separate self, humans are sophisticated creatures. We do things and do not need a separate manager for this." - What is "a human" and how does it/he/she do things? What is a "body" and can it do things? Can a sensation see, smell, think, feel, hear or taste? Can a colour see, smell,...?

Thank you

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Have you seen these additional questions?

Thank you,

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy,

Yes I have seen them. I'm abroad travelling. It's hard to have time to write. I will reply when it is possible.

Best, Em.

[Anastacia42]

No rush. Just checking in

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy,

Sorry for the delay, I'm on a road trip and in the last few days have felt very pulled back into the self habits even though I am certain there is no self. I just found out about 'fetters' which are helping to identify what attachments feel like I'm being pulled back and identifying with. There are many and on this it's clear only the first step happened for me. And yes, I am still thinking.

1. "my subconscious gave me a push in a dream at 2.30am" - What is the "subconscious" and how does it do things? Does it think, see...? Is there anything that is not experienced consciously (i.e. subconsciously) or that is assumed?

Subconscious was an assumption and was a thinking analysis - but what I was trying to describe was a pretty indescribable feeling and I'm sure of it in direct experience and sure that it had some shift in it.

2. "Even without a separate self, humans are sophisticated creatures. We do things and do not need a separate manager for this." - What is "a human" and how does it/he/she do things? What is a "body" and can it do things? Can a sensation see, smell, think, feel, hear or taste? Can a colour see, smell,...?

Human is the label for the kind of being I am.
I do not yet have a felt understanding fully the things just happen - it was there and I did feel calm detachment but this has reduced in the past few days.

Bodies, sensations and colours are just there and do not have their own agency to control elements such as sight or smell. Again, this is not fully a felt understanding - it is tenuous for me.

Regards

Emma.

[Anastacia42]

Emma,

If this is tenuous and not just a normal back-and-forth, we can keep LOOKING.

Have I sent these 2 videos and information on 3 support groups? Those might be helpful.

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This is just a beginning.

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference and I'll give you the information on that.

There are 3 meetings.

Vince Shubert runs one on the weekends. Write to vinceschubert@gmail.com for the link & schedule.

Luchana & Lubo run one on Thursdays. Write to Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Write admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link & schedule

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Another guide suggested giving you the body pointers. Here's one:


Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.


Loving,

[EmmRJ53]

Thanks Stacy, will review and reply when I can.

Best Em.

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy,

Thanks for your continued help, finally had some time to sit and look at this and had the following results :

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, none of there things cancelled known from direct experience- only through learned knowledge do heights and weights and volumes come into play. Without vision employed, the shape or form of the body can't be known in entirety.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Its not possibly to determine boundaries, only sensations of the clothing when particular areas are focused on.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

No, this cannot be known or differentiated by sensation alone - only when a certain sensation arises, does it get labelled by the mind as 'that's my stomach' for example, with a learned knowledge that this is 'inside'.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The label body, therefore is similar to 'I' in that it's a pointer - I'm not sure how else to describe it. The word body describes a known knowledge or collective 'understanding' of our physical presence. But the actual experience is way more subtle.

One thing that confuses me though is the role of vision, can you help me out in understanding why this is different from direct experience please?

When I was sitting and focusing on sensations, sound etc without vision earlier, I had the sense that all the active senses were just merged together and that even labelling 'sound' 'smell' and 'feel/sensation' as different things was just separating the senses unnecessarily.

I can clearly see/note the mind labelling after the events or on seeing things as I go about the day and it is so clear that there's no separate self driving me. I think there are resistances - fears, wants and dislikes that won't quite let go of a sense of needing control, needing to defend, manage possible 'risks' etc. Perhaps its just habits. I've been trying to inquire and I can see the roots, I guess it may just take time to break away from this? Any help with this would be really appreciated!

Best, Em.

[Anastacia42]

From Colored Socks:

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

One thing that confuses me though is the role of vision, can you help me out in understanding why this is different from direct experience please?

Seeing IS a Direct Experience. Why do you think it's not?


There is a Direct Looking process for fear.

https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE?si=jHXuuyyVtp7c-1R2

And this one:

https://youtu.be/fSTT8nc8cvQ?si=Alcukpbi7SUlXpfi

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Yes, seeing no self is just a first step.

Some people go on to explore what is called the Ten Fetters in Buddhism. There are groups for that.

Another guide had questions, although I feel our conversation here is complete. I'm kind of required to post these to you. I also want to give you a list of support groups:

There is a meetup every Saturday at 9pm (AEST) (Australia so your day may be different.
There is also one each Monday 6 am ( AEST)
One each Wednesday at 3pm (AEST)

Please note that it's always the same time on the same link�

Arriving late and leaving early is fine.

You can convert time zones here; https://www.worldtimebuddy.com

Click here to Join Zoom Meeting

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09

There are 3 meetings.

Vince Shubert runs one on the weekends. Write to vinceschubert@gmail.com for the link & schedule.

Luchana & Lubo run one on Thursdays. Write to Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Write admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link & schedule

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Here are those other questions:

Can you ask:

"Even without a separate self, humans are sophisticated creatures. We do things and do not need a separate manager for this."

What is the difference between a separate self and a human?

To what is the "we" in the second sentences refere to?

"Nothing is different really, instinct, experience, opinion, conditioning and learning still informs decisions but they are not made by a self. The self makes us think we control of things outside of us, which we don't. The self obsesses about past and future. "

Is there a self separate from thoughts?

Loving,

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy,

Thanks for these, I'm back from travelling now, it was difficult to navigate the mind habits while away. The nice calm separation that was felt diminished after a few days, being constantly bombarded by habitual thoughts and daily planning choices with travelling companion.

I think the fetters approach will help, indeed and I'm looking into this, I'll also try to attend some meetings, hopefully they aren't posted on public spaces, not keen on that.

The question I asked re. Vision/sight was specific to the previous exercise, however I listened to an Edge of Mind podcast which explained the answer.

Regarding the questions:

Even without a separate self, humans are sophisticated creatures. We do things and do not need a separate manager for this."

What is the difference between a separate self and a human?

To what is the "we" in the second sentences refere to?

Human - the being that I am. Separate self - the idea that I have a 'self' that controls the body and things that happen. Not sure how else to describe what I am as while realising no separate self is in control, the being that i am still exists and is writing this message.

We = human beings.

"

Nothing is different really, instinct, experience, opinion, conditioning and learning still informs decisions but they are not made by a self. The self makes us think we control of things outside of us, which we don't. The self obsesses about past and future. "

Is there a self separate from thoughts?

The self is not separate from the content of thoughts - it is in the content and only there, though I still feel the illusion that there is management of this thinking. This is why it's so confusing still for me. There's a part which thinks it is 'learning' all this and it won't disentangle from the fact it doesn't exist. It's tiring me out and it hard to move forward. There are still wants/hopes and subject/object is still there - I have not really felt the 'no separation', only a couple of brief moments when selfing thinking stopped.

Best, Em.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Em,

I suspect the guide with the questions will want you to keep looking until you're not confused, but other guides feel you are done with what we do here (but not the fetters).

Did I share these?

watch these, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This is just a beginning.

Loving

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy

Thank you, watched the videos.

Noted that this is normal and I will take the advice and release the expectation that was lurking 'that I should be in control of the process or managing it somehow'.

Much appreciation.

Em.