Midstream

[Tantriq]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have had a handful of experiences over the course of my life where the fact of no-self was shockingly and unexpectedly revealed. I never imagined the possibility. Each time, a terrible fear lept up uncontrollably and I was back. Nothing I can say does it justice. The most shocking memory is that nothing has or ever could happen.

What are you looking for at LU?
After each glimpse into no-self, I went on a fervent search for spiritual guidance. Each time, from a perspective relative to what I understood at the time. Each “guide” led me astray, yet somehow left me with something useful that, over the years, led me here.

I have been practicing a type of self-inquiry that has loosened self-clinging and resistance and made them more evident. I’ve dropped into this river and the rapids have become more turbulent. I feel like this is all that I can possible do, but there looms a pervasive doubt, and unclearly defined question mark. Is this all? Is this it? When those questions fade away, this is all; this is it. They come back, and I’m stuck with this uncertainty, doubt, and fear.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope for help with uncovering what it is that is happening to cover what I was shown is always already the case. I’ve seen this, but I don’t see it. I also realize that, although I seem to be seeking reality, just beneath the surface, there is a terrible fear in this psyche of what I’m approaching. My goal in a guided conversation is to tackle this once and for all.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Centering prayer, Prayer of the Heart, Somatic work, Vipassana retreats, Zazen, Vajrayana practices, Abiding in I Am, Inquiring who am I, recently discovered fetter-based inquiry which led me here.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Magdalena]

Hello Tantriq (is that what you’d like me to call you, or some other name?),

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Magdalena and I’m happy to assist you.

In your intro, you say:

Each time, a terrible fear lept up uncontrollably and I was back. … The most shocking memory is that nothing has or ever could happen.

I’m stuck with this uncertainty, doubt, and fear.

Tell me more: how is this frightening or shocking? What is the fear about?

I went on a fervent search for spiritual guidance.

What if there is nothing “spiritual” about what you have seen?

My goal in a guided conversation is to tackle this once and for all.

Are YOU in control of how all this unfolds? Is anyone?


Please answer all my questions. Before you do, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which we will need in our conversation: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... php?t=660

Peace be with you.

[Tantriq]

Tell me more: how is this frightening or shocking? What is the fear about?

I don't know what exactly is frightening, in those moments. My experience is of a sudden drastic change of perspective and an almost immediate recoil away from or out of whatever that was back to experiencing myself as me, Quincy, lying there. In hindsight, it seems to be a fear of dying, disappearing, being lost, or being overwhelmed. Ultimately, the fear seems to be about losing control. What made the experiences so shocking was that I was not expecting anything like those shifts to happen when they did. My understanding of spirituality didn't include any of that.

What if there is nothing “spiritual” about what you have seen?

It makes no difference what I call it. I'm using the term because it's usually applied to matters regarding shifts in perception. It happened when I was about 8 y/o, during an energetic moment in an African-American Southern Baptist church service. It happened while doing a relaxation visualization exercise, for the first time, when I was 19. It happened for much longer during a very atypical psilocybin ceremony when I was 24. It happened while I was practicing a prayer that I synchronized with my breath and heartbeat. I have always considered all of those things "spiritual" without really clamping down on what that word means. I think the word has always represented whatever represents, reveals, or restores a perception of reality that adds clarity to or reveals a true or truer experience of life. These different moments certainly did that, but whether that's spiritual or not is not important to me.

Are YOU in control of how all this unfolds? Is anyone?

This is a weird one. I can settle into observing the fullness of this moment and see that I'm mostly not in control of what shows up. But, I seem to be here and have decided to look into this moment which may not change what shows up, but it seems to change the quality of what's here. There seems to be an "I". It feels like there's an observer scanning perception, and it feels like it's directed by my intention. So, not in control of what unfolds but seemingly in control of whether or not to observe it closely or to be still.

[Magdalena]

Hello, Quincy,

… away from or out of whatever that was back to experiencing myself as me, Quincy, lying there.

So, the me=Quincy is safe because it’s the familiar way of seeing things, right?
But – is the unfamiliar necessarily dangerous, scary though it might seem?

it seems to be a fear of dying, disappearing, being lost, or being overwhelmed.

Yes, it’s pretty common.
But isn’t it also kind of interesting? Attractive? Pulling?

What made the experiences so shocking was that I was not expecting anything like those shifts to happen when they did.

I know. That’s what may happen when we’re not expecting to face the unexpected.;-)

… whether that's spiritual or not is not important to me.

Good. Just wanted to be clear on that.

Are YOU in control of how all this unfolds? Is anyone?

… see that I'm mostly not in control of what shows up. … So, not in control of what unfolds but seemingly in control of whether or not to observe it closely or to be still.

OK, here’s two experiments for you to do.

1. Raising Hands Exercise
1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

2. Drinks Exercise
The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.
Here's what’s needed: a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.
Preparation: Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.
Experiment: Finding the function of choice
Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:
1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.
Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Enjoy. ;-)

[Tantriq]

So, the me=Quincy is safe because it’s the familiar way of seeing things, right?
But – is the unfamiliar necessarily dangerous, scary though it might seem?

Safe in a way… More, like comfortably uncomfortable in the position of suspicion, seeming to prefer paranoid projection over “I don’t know what.” Trusting what others have said about it is the only way to know if this is dangerous. I can only imagine. I really don’t know. I know that fear has tended to be the response. I’m not in control of that. The willingness to look into this is here, regardless of fear.

But isn’t it also kind of interesting? Attractive? Pulling?

Yes, even when I’ve tried to forget about it and just live; it’s the living that always points to rest.
I know. That’s what may happen when we’re not expecting to face the unexpected.;-)
How does one practice, meditate, inquire when it all feels like an exercise in expecting? Even though I seem to have gotten nowhere, I feel that if I stop, this life will be wasted. I almost died a couple of years ago. During the situation (realizing that I’m about to die in this moment) I felt overwhelming shame, sadness, disappointment, and anger that I had let this life go by without awakening. Those emotions (and dying) were very unexpected. I suspect they’re all mixed up in this seeking.

1. Raising Hands Exercise

I didn’t find anything that made my hands move. There was just an impulse to raise a hand, and it suddenly raised. The circumstance seemed contrived. There was the thought that, of course, I can’t see or describe a controller, but I feel like I’m here observing to see which hand I’m going to see myself choose to raise next. I feel like I’m aware of which hand is going to be raised before it happens. Sometimes, the thought process tries to go against the impulse, as if I can trick myself. All of that feels like a “me” in there, even though I can’t locate it.

2. Drinks Exercise

The qualities of each drink came to mind, subtly at first, then stronger as I sat watching the glasses. I did not do that. They’re just there. I could almost taste them as I observed them. As I considered the pros and cons, one drink gave heavier cons. I counted to five and automatically drank the one with more cons. Yes, the preferences and the drinks themselves all took a backseat to the counting, while I counted. I don’t feel like I chose the drink, but there was a preference that was stronger than pros and cons. The function seems more like a biological preference based on sensory pleasure. When there was freedom to act, pros and cons were not involved.
I’m not clear on whether or not there is a chooser. I feel like I’m observing the choice happening during this exercise. Qualities arise. Pros and cons follow. Imagined sensations come to mind along with the qualification. Counting seemed to insert a “me” into the process. Then, the preference unfolded out of the imagined sensory experience; the hand grabbed the drink, and I took a sip. This is conditioning. I really wouldn’t need to be present for the body and mind to remember what it liked, crave it, and consume it if it’s sitting right in here. (Just observed the hand take another mindless sip)

Thank you for taking the time to try and help me. I really don't know if I'm able to understand any of this. I'll keep feeling into it though.

[Magdalena]

Hello, Quincy, good morning,

Safe in a way… More, like comfortably uncomfortable in the position of suspicion, seeming to prefer paranoid projection over “I don’t know what.”

Hey, is there anything wrong with simply not knowing?

Trusting what others have said about it is the only way to know if this is dangerous.

What makes you think that what others say is more accurate than your own experience?

I know that fear has tended to be the response. I’m not in control of that. The willingness to look into this is here, regardless of fear.

No, you certainly are not in control. Which means you can just as well say “Whatever”, and let it roll.

Yes, even when I’ve tried to forget about it and just live; it’s the living that always points to rest.

Doesn't that suggest that life will have its way no matter what you do?

How does one practice, meditate, inquire when it all feels like an exercise in expecting?

What makes you think that these are required? Because people say so?

Even though I seem to have gotten nowhere, I feel that if I stop, this life will be wasted.

How will your life change once you consider it not-wasted?

I can’t see or describe a controller, but I feel like I’m here observing to see which hand I’m going to see myself choose to raise next.

Some people “feel” that the earth is flat. Does “feeling” prove anything?

The function seems more like a biological preference based on sensory pleasure.

And where did the preference come from? Did YOU choose what to prefer? Did YOU decide which is more pleasurable? How did that happen?

I feel like I’m aware of which hand is going to be raised before it happens. … (Just observed the hand take another mindless sip)

You may enjoy these experiments – just watch out for the thought and the action – which comes first?
1. On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.
2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?
3. Can you choose the content of the next thought? Can you choose the next thought that will arise?
4. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc.) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?
5. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice – a point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?
6. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
7. Go to another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the computer. Why was that object chosen, and not any other?

Thank you for taking the time to try and help me.

You’re very welcome.

I really don't know if I'm able to understand any of this. I'll keep feeling into it though.

No worries, you’re doing just fine.

[Magdalena]

Hey Quincy,

You still here?
How are you doing?

[Tantriq]

You still here?
How are you doing?

Hello, Magdalena.
Yes, I’m still here. I was having an odd technical difficulty, and I couldn’t access the latest responses in this thread. I read the previous reply that you sent that morning, and I was able to work with what came up for me throughout that day. When I sat down that evening to reply, the message was gone. I intended to eventually respond with what I worked with from memory, but as time passed, I continued inquiring into the choicelessness of my choices, the direct, matter-of-factness of driving my car, the unpredictable, uncontrolled quality of streaming sensations. It seems like your collection of exercises really don’t require any specific practice. I just observe what is happening when the implied doer would be doing anything that he seems to be doing, and see how the doer fades in and out and is clearly not the doer, then seems to be the doer. Sometimes it’s clear, sometimes it’s not.

How will your life change once you consider it not-wasted?

It doesn’t. This life is what it is, with or without that thought. This life is wasted, this life is not wasted… Nothing is really effected by either of those statements.

Over this gap in our communication, I noticed this deep tendency to fear rejection. It seems like, in a way, I was open to a scenario that would have ended our communication over "technical" reasons. The mind began churning out thoughts about this process not being right for me, that I could do this on my own, resistance to imagining being judged, etc. All of that (and much more) became the content of the "exercises." I still didn't attempt to repair the technical glitch, but you reached out, and here we are.

[Magdalena]

Hello, Quincy,

Good to hear from you.
The technical glitch you’re referring to is a deliberate action of our webmaster to improve the platform’s operation – the result is everyone can only access the recent postings once they’re logged in. If you’re not, they won’t be visible. Just make sure you’re logged in every time and things should be OK. Even if you follow the link you get in your email, you will likely see the previous poster (i.e. me) logged in, so you log out, then log in as yourself, and then you get full access to the thread.

Simple, right? But isn’t it interesting to see how much storytelling it has provoked? 😉

I continued inquiring into the choicelessness of my choices…

Your choices, eh?

I just observe what is happening when the implied doer would be doing anything that he seems to be doing, and see how the doer fades in and out and is clearly not the doer, then seems to be the doer. Sometimes it’s clear, sometimes it’s not.

That’s fine. Just keep looking at this stuff as opportunities arise.

This life is what it is, with or without that thought. This life is wasted, this life is not wasted… Nothing is really effected by either of those statements.

Exactly. Life wasted or not wasted are stories that society, upbringing etc. inflict on us, and after enough indoctrination we accept them as fact.

Can you see any other stories that may have been controlling your life, mental habits and various responses?

Over this gap in our communication, I noticed this deep tendency to fear rejection.

This might spring from your earlier life’s experiences.

But can you see that even if something happened before, it is no proof that it will continue to happen? That whatever it is, it is yet another story we’re telling ourselves?

It seems like, in a way, I was open to a scenario that would have ended our communication over "technical" reasons.

LOL
That’s clever, eh? 😉

The mind began churning out thoughts about this process not being right for me, that I could do this on my own, resistance to imagining being judged, etc.

I mean I have no idea what’s right and what’s not, but as long as you’re here, and not deterred by technical glitches, we can as well carry on talking?

Please know that no one’s judging you or your answers. That said, when I see any b/s that comes up – stories, beliefs and such – I simply draw your attention to that. And why not take things lightly – laugh at them when we can? They are not as serious as they may appear. 😉


Please go back to my previous post and answer the other questions too.
Looking forward to hearing from you. 😊😊😊

[Tantriq]

You may enjoy these experiments – just watch out for the thought and the action – which comes first?
1. On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.

I counted aloud, in an attempt to drown out any pre-consideration going on in the thoughts. Oddly enough, when I got to five, both arms raised equally. That was not one of the choices given, nor do I assume it was one of the automatic pre-decisions I was trying not to hear in my mind. It just happened.

2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

It’s Midnight. I lied down to ice and rest what felt like a broken foot, today at 5:30 PM. I had no intentions of sleeping, and I am not aware of the moment I fell asleep, nor was that a conscious choice. I woke up to find that my wife and kids had kindly lived their evening around my body without waking me up, and they had all gone to bed. I remember my 8 y/o son giving me a hug, but I don’t recall fully waking up or falling back to sleep. This one is slippery.

3. Can you choose the content of the next thought? Can you choose the next thought that will arise?

No. This mind is its own radio station, but as I look to assess, I seem to be in charge of directing the attention, and to some degree, this attention clarifies the silence in which the thoughts arise. As far as thoughts go, some are unrelated to this exercise, but some are thoughts that arise as a result of my considering this process. Those thoughts feel more intentional, but even they are seen as a reaction to a process that I did not initiate. The “Me” that is considering this exercise is only here as that process of consideration, which is just the exercise exercising. (I just had a thought of a game of tennis being played with no one holding the rackets.)

4. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc.) of the physical sensation that will arise next?

No. The fullness of bodily awareness arises as a boiling cauldron of various qualities. Stillness seems intentional and brings clarity and depth of feeling, but it has no choice in what is felt. But, why did I choose to be still and observe rather than bang my hand against the table and feel that? Something at the source of those thoughts seems to have prior experience, understanding, and a desired outcome.

5. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, or attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice – a point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

It feels like one of those multi-hued LED lightbulbs. The emotional quality subtly fades in and out of different shades. These shades color this entire experience of the moment. This subtle quality is in the flavor of everything and is absolutely self-arising.

6. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

The number 18 just appeared. I did not choose, at all.

7. Go to another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the computer. Why was that object chosen, and not any other?

I grabbed a hat that was sitting on my dining room table. There were other objects on the table, but my mind was telling itself to not choose the first item it saw. My eyes scanned the items on the table, and this item was chosen, as the mind found it to meet the criteria of not being the first item, but observed within the space prior to obvious deliberation. Had I chosen the first object seen, it would have made no difference. I didn’t choose that it would be first seen or that it would be seen at all. Had I scanned the table or the room for a longer time, the search would have to stop somewhere and an item chosen. I seem to have chosen not to prolong the deliberation. The consideration was not conscious, but the object seemed to meet the obvious criteria of being an object, having shape and color, being removable and light enough to easily carry into another room. (I didn’t pick up the table or chairs.) I never thought about weight or bulk, but clearly some things are understood even in automatic actions. Maybe, the body knows best.

Have a great day!

[Magdalena]

Hello, Quincy, good morning 😊

You’ve done some really good looking 😊

Those thoughts feel more intentional, but even they are seen as a reaction to a process that I did not initiate.

Do those “more intentional thoughts” always obey whatever “intention” appears to go with them?
Like, suppose there is an “intention” to do the experiment again, but the attention is suddenly diverted elsewhere – by something on TV, the phone ringing, or simply another unrelated thought – say, one about having lunch or a beer?

… a game of tennis being played with no one holding the rackets.

Hahaha – nice!

why did I choose to be still and observe rather than bang my hand against the table and feel that?

Good point. Where do “preferences” and “intentions” come from?

Something at the source of those thoughts seems to have prior experience, understanding, and a desired outcome.

Can any of this actually be proven with any degree of certainty?

…clearly some things are understood even in automatic actions. Maybe, the body knows best.

Is there any evidence to attribute the capacity for “knowing” anything to the body”?


Please go back once again to the post of Aug 22, look through the remaining questions (other than the experiment) and look into them.

Have a great day!

Thanks – and you too.😉

[Tantriq]

Hey, is there anything wrong with simply not knowing?

Knowing is like an overlay. It’s reality rendering, providing orientation for the individual. Knowing defines the individual. It really seems like nothing would happen without it, and as a man of many roles, things have to happen in pretty precise ways or people that I love, who could care less about non-duality, won’t eat. So, it’s a bit scary imagining what might happen if I let go of the apparent control that knowing provides.

What makes you think that what others say is more accurate than your own experience?

I don’t think that. What I meant is that I only hear about the dangers of realization from the words of people more knowledgeable than myself. I really don’t know, for certain, of any dangers in my own experience, only fears. Once, I had an awakening experience and the thought occurred that I could walk out of my barracks room and walk around the military base naked and it would make no difference. I would be locked up, but hilariously, the one incarcerated is also the jail and the jailer. That, in hindsight, seemed like a dangerous thought.

Doesn't that suggest that life will have its way no matter what you do?

Yes, but this is what hurts so bad when I look at how painfully life plays out. WTF?

What makes you think that these are required? Because people say so?

Yes. I’m going into this blind. I have to decide if I’m willing to trust someone to give me directions. There are so many maps available. Most seem to be more about cartography than the actual destination. But, some of these maps have, when followed, given a taste of what it’s like when the mind goes quiet and the attention grows sharp. In the end it may all prove to be worthless, but these maps claim to be the way, and their practices seem to be giving strong hints about thoughts and reality. So, without knowing anything myself, I put my trust in those who seem to know. I mean, I’m interacting with you, a total stranger, whose credibility has in no way been proven, trusting that you may possibly be able to help me with this. I’m blind, here. Or, maybe I don’t trust my lying eyes.

Some people “feel” that the earth is flat. Does “feeling” prove anything?

No, but neither does knowing. Flat earth, round earth… feeling-knowing… from my bed, none of it means anything about an earth. (Nor a bed, for that matter) The concepts are their own proof. They exist as ideas. I exist as “I.” I am aware of no other reference point. I always seem to be observing, aware. At times, what appears to be volition appears. Other times, volition is clearly an afterthought. It waivers with the attention to detail.

And where did the preference come from? Did YOU choose what to prefer? Did YOU decide which is more pleasurable? How did that happen?

Pleasure arises spontaneously out of this sense of embodiment. It’s not a choice. I have no idea how it happens. I could discern a why from an individual or a cosmic perspective based on observed outcomes, but none of could be proven correct, so I just feel it, and suffer when I think I deal it.

[Magdalena]

Hello, Quincy,

… it’s a bit scary imagining what might happen if I let go of the apparent control that knowing provides.

What if control and knowing are both imaginary? Not to mention the one that thinks "I can/cannot let go of control"?

It might as well be that you’re holding on for dear life to something that is non-existent anyway.

Just consider this as a possibility – for a moment: if there is no control already and what is referred to as “knowing” is itself a scam, then how come doing Quincy's job, feeding Quincy's family and anything else that appeared to be Quincy’s actions – ever happened?

And why would it be any different from doing Quincy's job, feeding Quincy's family, etc. etc. just because it is noticed that there is no control?

What I meant is that I only hear about the dangers of realization from the words of people more knowledgeable than myself.

You have no way of knowing who is or is not knowledgeable, and who is making stuff up and for what reason.

So you can basically throw all this apparent “knowledge” out the window. It’s not useful at all. You have no way of knowing how this will unfold for you - which is as close to fact as it ever gets.

the thought occurred that I could walk out of my barracks room and walk around the military base naked and it would make no difference. I would be locked up, but hilariously, the one incarcerated is also the jail and the jailer. That, in hindsight, seemed like a dangerous thought.

But that kind of thought does not need an awakening to happen.

Can you choose the next thought that comes?

Or at least predict it?

Surely you’ve had some other weird thoughts that came without even a shadow of an awakening in sight, and somehow they did not get acted upon – unless you are reading this in jail?
(FYI I don't run naked around my workplace and have no criminal record. Oh, and I don't decide to one morning pick out a stranger from the LU waiting list and talk to them - I wish I knew how that ever happens LOL).

Doesn't that suggest that life will have its way no matter what you do?

Yes, but this is what hurts so bad when I look at how painfully life plays out. WTF?

Can you say more about this?

I have to decide if I’m willing to trust someone to give me directions.

You sure YOU get to decide these things?

How did you decide to join LU?

Why not a church, a cult, or a book club?

… without knowing anything myself, I put my trust in those who seem to know. I mean, I’m interacting with you, a total stranger, whose credibility has in no way been proven, trusting that you may possibly be able to help me with this.

I totally get this – sounds pretty irrational, right?

But, as you say, others only seem to know, myself included. No one’s credibility can ever be proven.
No one can ever know anything for sure, no matter what their claims may be.

The only thing we can do is simply talk about things, which is what we are doing here.
The only thing I can do to “help you” (as if there was a you that needed any help) is invite you to look at certain things differently – in a way you may not have been looking at them before.
I'm not feeding you any new beliefs, quoting from scriptures, saying I know the truth, and so on.

Neither you nor me is in control of how this conversation runs. It simply runs its course, just as life always does.
So, don’t look up to me, or anyone else for that matter, as having solutions or inside information that you don’t have.

Look for yourself, and test whatever we talk about here.

[Tantriq]

What if control and knowing are both imaginary?

Then, the burden of life would be lifted.

Not to mention the one that thinks "I can/cannot let go of control"?

This one wants to let go of IMAGINING control or knowing, which is another version of imagining control and imagining what would or wouldn’t be known if imagined control and knowledge were “known” to be imagined. All I can do is stare at this wall.

It might as well be that you’re holding on for dear life to something that is non-existent anyway.

I don’t know what’s holding on.

Just consider this as a possibility – for a moment: if there is no control already and what is referred to as “knowing” is itself a scam, then how come doing Quincy's job, feeding Quincy's family and anything else that appeared to be Quincy’s actions – ever happened?

Without knowing, Quincy’s life isn’t happening – Not, right now.

And why would it be any different from doing Quincy's job, feeding Quincy's family, etc. etc. just because it is noticed that there is no control?

It would be very different!  There’s not a moment of genuine rest when the feeling of being in control is here. One of the most daunting thoughts is imagining having to be in control for this entire life. When I look at it, I fear this more than imagining not being in control.

Can you choose the next thought that comes?
Or at least predict it?

No, they arise spontaneously, but something immediately claims it after the fact. A sensory input is overlaid with a definition/meaning. Instantly, there’s a seer-seeing-seen. This is where I’m stuck. If I look into this, there’s nothing to do. If I don’t pay attention to this, I slip right back into suffering the idea of being in control.

Doesn't that suggest that life will have its way no matter what you do?
Yes, but this is what hurts so bad when I look at how painfully life plays out. WTF?
Can you say more about this?

Even with the sense of being in control, no matter how well we put it all together, life is one tragedy after the next, with the promise of tragedy to come. No amount of control can control that. Heartache, grief, despair, pain, and hopelessness all lie just beneath the surface for most, hidden away by personal and societal strategies of distraction until there’s no more looking away. No escape. No more lies. This is that vibrant burning tension that preceded so many of my actions in life. Right now, I sit with it. Knowledge relates this feeling with so many stories about my life. Control is the illusion that this flow of sensations can be altered, damned, or redirected, but the only thing that gets redirected is attention. And, I suppose that only happens until it doesn’t.

You sure YOU get to decide these things?
How did you decide to join LU?
Why not a church, a cult, or a book club?

Well, I’m less sure now that I'm the one deciding. I suppose the stars aligned. I heard a lady describe what takes place here, and I immediately knew I had to check it out. LU met the criteria, at first glance, of NOT being the things you just listed among other things that this stream-dream is not interested in playing with. It was instant. I walked up to the bank and jumped in the water, never having been a strong swimmer.

But, as you say, others only seem to know, myself included. No one’s credibility can ever be proven.
No one can ever know anything for sure, no matter what their claims may be.

That’s quite a proclamation. Feeling into this statement is like being stranded in a desert. I’ve always secretly held out hope that someday, somehow, when I was ready, pure, ripe, mature, healthy, wise, good……. Someone would come along and save me…. Guide me out of this constant discomfort to an enduring place of peace, love, acceptance, and understanding. I see that that was just a dream within a dream about a person who isn’t here except as a series of thoughts, and memories. Without thinking, there are just hands on a keyboard, a computer screen… Thoughts jump up that claim the possibility of doer-ship, that try to analyze and make sense of what this is and what it means or doesn’t mean, if this is right, wrong, enough…
My family is moving about in the house and the attention naturally moves towards a task, triggered by the sight of a package that was brought in with the mail. I noticed the movement as it happened. I didn’t choose that direction of life activity, it just happened, but by sitting here quietly observing, I saw it happen without “me” doing it. It's time to repair this vacuum cleaner.

Thank you for talking with me.

[Magdalena]

Hello, Quincy,

Thanks for sharing all this.

One of the most daunting thoughts is imagining having to be in control for this entire life. When I look at it, I fear this more than imagining not being in control.

If I look into this, there’s nothing to do. If I don’t pay attention to this, I slip right back into suffering the idea of being in control.

Yes, thoughts and imagining future things which may or may not happen.
Then a response to those thoughts occurs.
More thought comes.
Stronger response.
And so on and so forth…

Can you see this vicious circle happening?

Why believe thoughts in the first place (considering you have no control over the thoughts that come and cannot even predict their content in any reliable way)?

Even with the sense of being in control, no matter how well we put it all together, life is one tragedy after the next, with the promise of tragedy to come.

Exactly. The sense of control is as misleading as anything.

Life is the way it is, a combination of experiences that we tend to label in various ways, such as “tragedy”, “joy”, “good luck”, whatever.

You think life cares if you feel in control?

You think life is about YOU?

Knowledge relates this feeling with so many stories about my life.

Can thought stories be relied on?

Well, I’m less sure now that I'm the one deciding. I suppose the stars aligned.

Let’s keep the stars out of this LOL.

What I’m hearing you say is circumstances arose (someone talked about it), an idea arrived (why not give it a try?), followed by a response (signing up).

I understand it may have felt like YOU were in control and YOU decided, but was that really the case?

I mean – look at the simplest “decisions”/”choices” that are made on a daily basis.
For the next couple of days, watch the moment of “deciding” whether to have tea, coffee or some other drink with your breakfast.
Just watch this happen – time and again. What do you find?

I’ve always secretly held out hope that someday, somehow, when I was ready, pure, ripe, mature, healthy, wise, good……. Someone would come along and save me….

What a story! LOL

From what you’re saying next, I understand you can see it as a thought story – is that right?

Without thinking, there are just hands on a keyboard, a computer screen… Thoughts jump up that claim the possibility of doer-ship, that try to analyze and make sense of what this is and what it means or doesn’t mean, if this is right, wrong, enough…

WHAT IS CONTROL WHEN THERE'S NO THINKING ABOUT IT?

My family is moving about in the house and the attention naturally moves towards a task, triggered by the sight of a package that was brought in with the mail. I noticed the movement as it happened. I didn’t choose that direction of life activity, it just happened, but by sitting here quietly observing, I saw it happen without “me” doing it. It's time to repair this vacuum cleaner.

See? Life happens without a “you” doing it, being in control”, making stories about it. Work gets done, family gets fed, vaccum cleaners get repaired.

Just stay attentive to how things happen in daily life.

Thank you for talking with me.

You’re very welcome – and thank YOU.