Resistance to Life Identity possibly pre verbal

[redicanRon]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
It's the attachment to a multilayered false illusory separate constructed self or mind identified

What are you looking for at LU?
Hoping for some support with inquiry into a deeply held belief that I'm finding some difficulty with myself. Recently I've become more aware of how much I've being avoiding life, rejecting life and the extent that this has been running unconsciously all my life. There's a lot of physical sensations and grief in my heart area with it. I feel it's pre verbal, I lost my womb twin. I'm noticing a lot of contradictions more and more, in this case, I want to live, to truly live but there's also a belief of not wanting to be here. I can be automatically pulled into inquiry asking who is it that wants to live, who is it that dies wants to be here, contradictory, dualistic.....bloody confusing. I'd be grateful for some guidance/support with the inquiry from a more practiced hand. I've been roughing this mainly with just 'who am I'm or 'I am'. This feels like a deep part of my identity too, some gentle support would be appreciated and that coming from someone whom back in my younger days wouldn't have asked for help.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Perhaps an intuitive practiced support in diving deep into the root of this belief of rejection of life, feeling what's there, the energy of it. It feels like a deep wound and there's a holding energy with it and fear and a lot of grief. Someone who can support emotionally and hold space. This is not whom I am but I've lived with this all my life, like dragging my feet through life with a burden of sadness. And yet, like I said, there's a desire to truly live, but what is that, what is living without the conditioning, without the beliefs such as here that life is threatening.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I suppose I've a good deal of experience. I've been on the path 12 years that has evolved from an awakening shift, to the spiritual self to in recent years since 2018/2019 being drawn to non duality particularly Ramana Maharashi. I've done a lot of Holotropic Breath work too since 2019. I've been having an intense emotional purge past two years especially grief. I'm quite intuitive, sensitive to energy, feel it somatically. I've done some energy courses and shamanism in earlier years.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hi redicanRon, is your name Ron? Ronathan maybe? What would you like me to call you? I'm Tyler and welcome to LU.

I'm not someone who's explored the energetic side of things too much, so let me know if you would prefer a guide who's walked a more similar path to yours. Of course, different perspective are always helpful but I would take no offence if you find me inadequate and want to change guides at any point.

First off, let's make a distinction in your experience: Thought and Direct Experience (DE, the 5 senses).
How do you experience energy? Other than physical sensations, is there anything that tells you anything about this energy?

Try looking for yourself. Where are you? You said the "who am I" inquiry is bloody confusing, so instead of asking you who is bloody confused, can you locate the one who seems to be confused?

Perhaps an intuitive practiced support in diving deep into the root of this belief of rejection of life, feeling what's there, the energy of it.

What does this rejection of life actually feel like? Can you feel the physical sensations you associate with this belief without dragging the belief into it? Do you hold the belief that you shouldn't be here? How did that question feel?

Lastly, why do you reject life? What's wrong with things as they are right now? Can you look at your current experience and find a problem? If so, can you see that that problem is a thought? What's actually there when you strip thought away?

[redicanRon]

Hi Tyler. Thank you for taking the time to reply. My name is Ciarán (key-Rawn as in pawn).

How do you experience energy? Other than physical sensations, is there anything that tells you anything about this energy?

Good question. No, it’s mainly just the physical sensations and I guess an intuitive guidance/feeling whenever I have worked with someone energetically or shamanically (this has deepened over time and the last time, back in July, I really didn’t know what I was doing, felt more like it was being done through me).

Try looking for yourself. Where are you? You said the "who am I" inquiry is bloody confusing, so instead of asking you who is bloody confused, can you locate the one who seems to be confused?

The “who am I” inquiry isn’t confusing for me, I was referring to the increased awareness of contradictory beliefs. The thoughts that occasionally come ‘I don’t want to be here’, ‘I shouldn’t be here’ (this one is new), the belief I feel is a resistance to life but I also very much want to live and have experienced a lot of grief additionally recently realising that in some way I have never ‘Truly’ lived or been open to life. I’ve become aware of other contradictions, another one is, letting go whilst there is a feeling too of holding on. I’ve felt this ‘holding’ with the senses quite deeply last week when feeling into the deep grief, sadness in my heart area. It was quite fascinating, felt quite intimate. The contradictions seem to arise from the same space which is maybe what is adding to the confusion right now. But yeah, they’re thoughts right as are beliefs. There’s generally a lot of disorientation (I’m confused about how to live life, a lot of the old conditioning has fallen away but maybe mind is trying to grasp something that’s not there anymore, and now I’m seeing this belief appearing along with it of rejecting life) and confusion knocking around with me a while now and a lot of apathy.

What does this rejection of life actually feel like? Can you feel the physical sensations you associate with this belief without dragging the belief into it? Do you hold the belief that you shouldn't be here? How did that question feel?

Lastly, why do you reject life? What's wrong with things as they are right now? Can you look at your current experience and find a problem? If so, can you see that that problem is a thought? What's actually there when you strip thought away?

There’s a lot of contraction in the chest area, a hard pressing feeling. A lot of sadness, tears. Some fear hidden away under it all. I can be with it without the mind, my mind is generally quiet, no content no story, when I’m feeling inquiring into the sensations. I’ve been doing acceptance a while so mind has settled a lot when feeling into the sensations than it’s antics at the start.

shouldn’t be here?

I reckon I am carrying that belief. As I mentioned, just last week when I was processing some grief, I caught that exact thought ‘I shouldn’t be here!’, funny or not you mention it here. How did the question feel. It felt strong emotionally, a lot of tears and chest sensations, my mind was shouting ‘mistake!’ a lot. Pretty potent. I’ll have to revisit it.

Your last questions. Thanks. I feel the freedom, safety and spaciousnesses present when in this moment I ask those questions and see it’s just a thought. I can move in and out of this space. Wish it would stick. Are beliefs just thoughts? Are they deeper thoughts or just emotionally charged thoughts? Do you let go of a belief by feeling the emotions connected to it and questioning it?

Thanks Tyler. This is new to me this thread thing so hopefully I communicated okay.

[ty0]

Heya Ciaran, where are you based? What's your time zone?

Good question. No, it’s mainly just the physical sensations and I guess an intuitive guidance/feeling whenever I have worked with someone energetically or shamanically

So what makes this energy different from other physical sensations? Is it just a naming convention? Should we then classify all sensation as energy?

The “who am I” inquiry isn’t confusing for me, I was referring to the increased awareness of contradictory beliefs. The thoughts that occasionally come ‘I don’t want to be here’, ‘I shouldn’t be here’ (this one is new), the belief I feel is a resistance to life but I also very much want to live and have experienced a lot of grief additionally recently realising that in some way I have never ‘Truly’ lived or been open to life.

Well of course you can have contradictory beliefs, thoughts are totally arbitrary. All I can say to that is get out of your head and look at what's here. You don't actually have a choice about what's happening. What is here is what is here, whether you like it or not. Does the word "should" actually mean anything? Does it refer to anything in DE (direct experience)? Even the realisation that you have never truly lived is just a thought. What does it mean to truly live? What do any of these thoughts refer to? Are they not just thoughts about thoughts about thoughts referring to each other the same way every word in the dictionary is defined by other words which are then defined by other words?

Without the labels "grief" and "sadness", what is actually there in your heart area? When you strip away the stories, is it not the same thing that your label "energy" points to? Is there anything inherently good or bad about what you mean when you say "energy" or what you refer to when you say "grief"? Continue feeling into these sensations. Do they tell you anything? Are they not just sensations?

There’s generally a lot of disorientation (I’m confused about how to live life, a lot of the old conditioning has fallen away but maybe mind is trying to grasp something that’s not there anymore, and now I’m seeing this belief appearing along with it of rejecting life) and confusion knocking around with me a while now and a lot of apathy.

Stop trying to figure anything out. You're feeling dissonance because you're "trying to let go" which is in a sense "holding on to letting go". But as long as you're TRYING to let go, you're not actually letting go, you're doing the opposite. It's like asking "How do I surrender?", one would have already failed to surrender by asking the question, trying to figure something out.
There's nothing you have to do here. Just stop. Look around.

I reckon I am carrying that belief. As I mentioned, just last week when I was processing some grief, I caught that exact thought ‘I shouldn’t be here!’, funny or not you mention it here. How did the question feel. It felt strong emotionally, a lot of tears and chest sensations, my mind was shouting ‘mistake!’ a lot. Pretty potent. I’ll have to revisit it.

Bring that up again and really feel into it. You don't have to figure something out with thoughts. There's nothing wrong with the emotions coming up.

Are beliefs just thoughts? Are they deeper thoughts or just emotionally charged thoughts? Do you let go of a belief by feeling the emotions connected to it and questioning it?

Can you be okay with not knowing the answers to these questions? There isn't really such a thing as a "belief". Do you see that you've created this narrative wherein you're a person who's got long-held beliefs about your relationship to life and thus you have to now do some work in order to let go of these "beliefs" you have so that you can "live life more fully" (whatever that means) and make your experience into a better experience that you can only imagine sometime in the future? Does anything in your current experience actually tell you about that narrative in any way?

This is new to me this thread thing so hopefully I communicated okay.

You communicated wonderfully :).

Wish it would stick.

Wishing it would stick makes it not stick.

Try this:
Ask: "What's here that's not a thought?" Then, LOOK. If thoughts arise, note that those are just thoughts, don't judge them or yourself. Then, return to the question. If you find yourself judging, note that the judging itself is just more thought. Then, return to the question. LOOK in the gap between question and thought. As soon as you notice that there is a gap, note that EVEN THAT NOTICING is another thought. If you have doubts about doing this correctly, note that even the doubts are just thoughts. Go back and back and back again. "What's here that's not a thought?"

[redicanRon]

Hi Tyler. I’m located in Ireland. GMT +1 daylight savings

So what makes this energy different from other physical sensations? Is it just a naming convention? Should we then classify all sensation as energy?

Yes, I get that. Just a label. Everything is energy, right.

Well of course you can have contradictory beliefs, thoughts are totally arbitrary. All I can say to that is get out of your head and look at what's here. You don't actually have a choice about what's happening. What is here is what is here, whether you like it or not. Does the word "should" actually mean anything? Does it refer to anything in DE (direct experience)? Even the realisation that you have never truly lived is just a thought. What does it mean to truly live? What do any of these thoughts refer to? Are they not just thoughts about thoughts about thoughts referring to each other the same way every word in the dictionary is defined by other words which are then defined by other words?

No, the word “should” is meaningless in DE. Just thoughts. To truly live, thoughts contriving to control how life is lived, pulling one from the present moment. I’ve been in my head alright.

Without the labels "grief" and "sadness", what is actually there in your heart area? When you strip away the stories, is it not the same thing that your label "energy" points to? Is there anything inherently good or bad about what you mean when you say "energy" or what you refer to when you say "grief"? Continue feeling into these sensations. Do they tell you anything? Are they not just sensations?

I’m with you on this. They’re just sensations without the labels. When I feel them, they’re just sensations, there’s no story. I guess I just label them when using language to describe them. They don’t really need any labels when they’re being explored as sensations.

Ask: "What's here that's not a thought?" Then, LOOK. If thoughts arise, note that those are just thoughts, don't judge them or yourself. Then, return to the question. If you find yourself judging, note that the judging itself is just more thought. Then, return to the question. LOOK in the gap between question and thought. As soon as you notice that there is a gap, note that EVEN THAT NOTICING is another thought. If you have doubts about doing this correctly, note that even the doubts are just thoughts. Go back and back and back again. "What's here that's not a thought?"

If noticing is a thought than all that’s here is thoughts.

Stop trying to figure anything out. You're feeling dissonance because you're "trying to let go" which is in a sense "holding on to letting go". But as long as you're TRYING to let go, you're not actually letting go, you're doing the opposite. It's like asking "How do I surrender?", one would have already failed to surrender by asking the question, trying to figure something out.
There's nothing you have to do here. Just stop. Look around.

Thank you. I had missed this, as the Trier I’m latched on, such is the joke.

Can you be okay with not knowing the answers to these questions? There isn't really such a thing as a "belief". Do you see that you've created this narrative wherein you're a person who's got long-held beliefs about your relationship to life and thus you have to now do some work in order to let go of these "beliefs" you have so that you can "live life more fully" (whatever that means) and make your experience into a better experience that you can only imagine sometime in the future? Does anything in your current experience actually tell you about that narrative in any way?

I can see it and I was becoming aware that My mind had latched on to a story, a story that in my present experience doesn’t exist. Thank you for pointing that out. I was lost in it.

[ty0]

If noticing is a thought than all that’s here is thoughts.

This thought comes up after you notice noticing. But what's in the gap between noticing noticing and having that thought? Can you return there and look? Another question you can try is: "What's the next thought?" and then wait for it. What is there before the next thought?

[redicanRon]

"What's the next thought?"

There's nothing. Emptiness. Vastness. Depth. Lightness in the body. Peace

[ty0]

Can you stay here? Can you come back here whenever you realise you're caught up in a story that has nothing to do with this?

I wouldn't say there's nothing here. Look around. There's this whole world of colour and sounds and sensations. Isn't it beautiful? Let's do an exercise to help you see clearer.

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like).

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

DE is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, and sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in DE?

While the thought 'apple' is present in your experience, what the thought talks ABOUT can't be found in DE.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ CHECK
Color labeled ‘apple’ CHECK
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ CHECK (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ CHECK
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ CHECK

However, is there an actual apple apart from these?

Where is this resistance to life now? Does the thought "I shouldn't be here" still carry weight? Does it even make sense anymore? Let me know how you're feeling and what thoughts are reoccurring for you.

[redicanRon]

Hi Tyler. I won't get to respond until tomorrow. Apologies.

[redicanRon]

Hi Tyler

Can you stay here? Can you come back here whenever you realise you're caught up in a story that has nothing to do with this?

I wouldn't say there's nothing here. Look around. There's this whole world of colour and sounds and sensations. Isn't it beautiful? Let's do an exercise to help you see clearer.

When I read this, I was immediately pulled into inquiring who it is that would stay here. This has been happening more often over the past few days, inquiring sometimes automatically. But yeah, it pulls me into the empty space. When I said nothing, I had practiced the exercise with my eyes closed, so the feeling was nothingness or emptiness. Yes, I could certainly feel the beauty today and much more connection with people. I may have had a shift on Sunday night that’s settling. This morning I was thinking, oh the pieces feel like they’re coming together and I found myself inquiring again, who is it that feels the pieces are coming together, where is this I, etc. than just settling into a space away from thought. It’s like the inquiry has taken on a bit of a life of its own and there’s a sense of urgency to it, challenging the thoughts identity even the very subtle thoughts. Do I keep going with that? Does this continuous practice eventually lead to the mind somehow surrendering? I’ve found myself contemplating in addition to the increased inquiry on like, ‘The Truth is all there is’, and I’m like if the truth is all there is, when I question, who is trying to find something etc. I’m just kind of stunned in this space again, it’s quite amazing. When I contemplate, the seeker is the sought in addition to all of this, it’s just, well, I can’t describe it. Today was the first day in a long time that I felt really good. There where moments where it felt like I could be overwhelmed by the peace and yeah, I notice that’s a thought, moments of just joy pouring from my heart, love, a connection to people. I found myself easily chatting to people, colleagues, strangers and they seemed drawn to it. A couple of moments where things, life just seemed to flow, happen and whatever way it unfolded was just perfect in a natural way.

The exercise

I’m not sure if I followed this right. Without the label of thought that it’s an apple, it could be anything, unless memory is a thought. I’m reminded of what I heard about when one was a child and they saw a bird for the first time, they see magic, mystery, wonder, awe. When they’re told, that’s a ‘bird’, well, that’s the magic gone.

Where is this resistance to life now? Does the thought "I shouldn't be here" still carry weight? Does it even make sense anymore? Let me know how you're feeling and what thoughts are reoccurring for you.

I see how I had attached to the story of resistance and it doesn’t seem to be there or it’s rapidly falling away. The ‘doer’ try’s to probe every now and than, like what do I do, do in life, live life, etc. but again the inquiry comes online, I see it’s just a thought and everything quietens. Sunday morning as I was waking up, there was inquiry going on automatically into who I am, etc. for a long time, there where thoughts towards the end of that, ‘you’ll go crazy’ etc. a shakiness and feeling of overwhelm, it passed but I didn’t catch it to inquire into it. There was probably fear there somewhere too.

I hope this makes sense. There’s been a lot. I’ve just returned to work too yesterday after being off for 9 months, I had to take time of and was fortunate to be able to as the emotional purge was so intense and exhausting and it gave me the time to be with the feelings mainly grief and anger that were arising with the sensations. I dunno what else to say. Thanks and apologies for the delay in replying. There was some resistance and other stuff happening to going back to work but with what’s been happening it’s been quite enjoyable. Feels like I’m opening more having been closed for so long and that doesn’t sound right too, this referring to an ‘I’ that is opening! LoL.

[ty0]

Really beautiful stuff Ciaran.

When I said nothing, I had practiced the exercise with my eyes closed, so the feeling was nothingness or emptiness

Even with your eyes closed, is there really nothingness? Don't you see the morphing patterns behind your eyelids? The sensations and sounds constantly in flux?

Do I keep going with that? Does this continuous practice eventually lead to the mind somehow surrendering?

Just keep going and don't worry about where it's going. Here's a question. What is this Truth you speak of? What does it mean for something to be true?

Without the label of thought that it’s an apple, it could be anything, unless memory is a thought

Without any labels or thought, can it even be anything at all?

there was inquiry going on automatically into who I am, etc. for a long time, there where thoughts towards the end of that, ‘you’ll go crazy’ etc. a shakiness and feeling of overwhelm, it passed but I didn’t catch it to inquire into it. There was probably fear there somewhere too.

Who'll go crazy? 😂😂. But yeah, this is a big fear barrier a lot of people (including me) have gone through. Catch it if it comes back.

[redicanRon]

Hey

Even with your eyes closed, is there really nothingness? Don't you see the morphing patterns behind your eyelids? The sensations and sounds constantly in flux?

Yes I do. Probably the wrong word to describe the space.

What is this Truth you speak of? What does it mean for something to be true?

There’s no concept with it. It’s just a word I use, a signpost, that now currently brings me into the space of emptiness. Ramana Maharashi used the word ‘Self’ in the original pointer, ‘Truth’ just always resonated better with me. I’ve no answer for what it means for something to be true, there’s no answer there, just stillness.

Without any labels or thought, can it even be anything at all?

No. This was pretty deep doing this exercise again. Fascinating, curious, I could feel that childlike wonder. I’ll keep doing this exercise, try to spend more time at it, one can kind of get lost in it and no, that doesn’t really describe it properly.

[ty0]

Probably the wrong word to describe the space.

Is there even a space? What is space? Do you think you live in a 3D world? How is "space" experienced through the senses? Is it even?

It’s just a word I use, a signpost, that now currently brings me into the space of emptiness.

*Insert questions about space again* What is emptiness?

No. This was pretty deep doing this exercise again. Fascinating, curious, I could feel that childlike wonder. I’ll keep doing this exercise, try to spend more time at it, one can kind of get lost in it and no, that doesn’t really describe it properly.

Continue using this. Try the "What's here that's not a thought?" exercise again. First with eyes closed and then open.

[redicanRon]

Is there even a space? What is space? Do you think you live in a 3D world? How is "space" experienced through the senses? Is it even?

No, no space, no emptiness. I don’t know what is there. It’s just peaceful, still. Struggled a bit with the 3D question, could feel the I here. When I inquired here, I got the thought, what do I live in than, more inquiry, some struggle giving up this understanding. I’ll keep inquiring.

"What's here that's not a thought?" exercise again. First with eyes closed and then open.

eyes closed, in my DE I can see the the moving shadow’s of my closed eyelids, hearing sounds, sensations, it all feels amplified somehow, all experienced from a place that feels peaceful, still, vast (you’re going to hammer me again with those 3D questions 😁!). Eyes open, the same except with sight, it feels like at times objects are closer, magnified, sometimes shifting, moving slightly, alive maybe!?

[ty0]

Hahah, you sound much less serious than when we first started this dialogue :)

Struggled a bit with the 3D question, could feel the I here. When I inquired here, I got the thought, what do I live in than, more inquiry, some struggle giving up this understanding. I’ll keep inquiring.

You're constantly holding up the beliefs that "you live in a world", "there is a world", "there is a you", "you're a little thing inside that world", and "the world exists as 3D space". Isn't that tiring? Isn't that effortful? When I asked about 3D, you only questioned the belief that the world is a 3D space. But why is it a given that there is a world? Does the world exist outside of your thoughts? Do you think a newborn baby has the sense that it exists in a world?

This thing about a world is a huuuge assumption that you've filed under "Things Ciaran knows for sure". Imagine how much else is in that file and what your experience would look like with it emptied out. Like, what do you know for sure? What do you REALLY know for sure is true?

Eyes open, the same except with sight, it feels like at times objects are closer, magnified, sometimes shifting, moving slightly, alive maybe!?

Nice, isn't it 😂? So, how do you know there are objects? What is an object? Are there really objects that can be closer or farther? What is distance? Can you find distance in DE? If you look closely, does vision start to seem more and more like a 2D screen like when you watch a movie and it looks 3D but you know you're watching it on a 2D screen? What's the difference between your vision and a screen?

eyes closed, in my DE I can see the the moving shadow’s of my closed eyelids, hearing sounds, sensations, it all feels amplified somehow, all experienced from a place that feels peaceful, still, vast

Ok, most important part of today's post. I want you to go towards that still, vast place. What is the nature of this place? How is it experienced? Is it a "place"? Does anything tell you that the senses are experienced from this "place"? Try to sink into this if you can. You have some tools to quiet your mind already. Maybe throw in the question "Where am I?" and look for where you are without thought. Let me know what comes up