Vagabond

[manofsands]

Sorry,.. I gave a lot of backstory as a tangent, but yes, I understand the feeling that comes in conjunction with lieing

[Anastacia42]

Hi Scott

I've come to the same things: never liked small talk & I'll tell you how I'm really feeling if you ask.

I also rail against TV shows where if one person told one truth there would be no show - especially when a character is hiding their love for another character. Ugh!

Truth Tuning Fork in our chest

Exactly! I love your term for it.

The admins tell me I have guided over 100 clients and I believe you're the first one who already knew about the truth sense.

Now let's turn it to your quest to see that there is in truth no separate self.

[Anastacia42]

Let's try this pointer that brings some things together.


Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Loving,

[manofsands]

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

The label is just a collection of thoughts about similar experiences. It can keep you from fully experiencing the moment. Your senses tag similarities and declare it 'this'. It is not what is known, but what is believed

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

I get a lil confused here. As in saying there's no 'apple'... I understand that, the label 'apple' is not the experience, so there is no 'apple'... but there is the thing which we generally agree to label an apple experience

[Anastacia42]

Skip whatever ad starts playing & watch this movie clip from The Matrix.

https://youtu.be/Ph02o6K2aoo?si=KL2c2Mm61bhvL6GV

Right. There is no "apple." It is made up.

Read through the pointer until you see this. It is exactly like there is no "self."

Loving

[manofsands]

Skip whatever ad starts playing & watch this movie clip from The Matrix.

https://youtu.be/Ph02o6K2aoo?si=KL2c2Mm61bhvL6GV

Right. There is no "apple." It is made up.

When I saw Matrix and, 'there is no apple'... haha... I knew it was going to be the 'there is no spoon'... we have a small painting my wife did, at my request, of a picture of a spoon that says 'there is no spoon'

Read through the pointer until you see this. It is exactly like there is no "self."

I'm sorry, but this seems like a big jump. I see myself being stuck here specifically. I understand a label not being the thing. But I don't see that there is 'no thing'... and I definitely am not applying that to there being 'no self'. I need more help here

[Anastacia42]

It is no "big jump." It only seems that way because you're attached to the thought story of a "self."

Try this:

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Loving,

[manofsands]

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

I may need to wait until my day off Wednesday to delve into this exercise properly... there's a lot going on during my work days and I need some quiet time to really explore this.

I wonder if my issue here is just in the wording.

Can someone organically come into the realization of 'no self and not know it?

What is a defining characteristic or question that can be asked to know if someone has the realization of no self?

I feel like I understand all that you are pointing out, but from the wording, I need to jump from understanding to knowing. How do you know when you've made the jump? What can one expect on 'the other side'?... because from what I've read.. nothing really changes except perspective and how one interacts with the world.

I'm trying to sense my obstacle but feeling none

[Anastacia42]

Need some quiet time to really explore this.

Okay, good.

wonder if my issue here is just in the wording.

Definitely not. This is about NO WORDS.

Can someone organically come into the realization of 'no self and not know it?

Doubtful. Very doubtful. Although it may be subtle. For me, it hit me like a tin of bricks.

What is a defining characteristic or question that can be asked to know if someone has the realization of no self?

You read Gateless Gatecrashers- what did they say?Governor back & look. There are some similarities. but everyone's experience is different.

I cannot say for another person that they've seen. I may think probably do. buy I may be wrong.

I need to jump from understanding to knowing.

Yes.

nothing really changes except perspective and how one interacts with the world.

And that is huge!

You'll know!

Seeing no self is kind of an "accident." You can't make it happen. These pointers do make you accident prone. :)

Relaxation is very important.

It is most likely to happen when you're relaxed & not posting attention.

Patience is helpful. No straining or stressing!

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

I'm on my phone and there is some typos there but I think you'll get the idea.

Try these:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ksba3zhi9uuz ... ti33t&dl=0

Be sure to start with the Introduction.

Much love

[manofsands]

Thank You!

I will probably wait until Wednesday night to go thru this and 'meditate' on the exercise

[Anastacia42]

Okay.

The DropBox link has a dozen pointers

[manofsands]

Greetings Stacy~

I am getting ready to look thru the pointer help you've sent and meditate on the no self

I'm looking forward to it, but as a kind of a 'before' and 'after',.. I want to play devils advocate by commenting with my 'thinking' before. Then I'll do my exercise and comment, again, after

Does the sense of self have a location?

It is centered in the body, mostly behind the eyes. My 'self' is not centered around another's body. I think my actual self is located wherever my attention is. If I am staring intently at a flower, my self is the flower. If I am reliving a memory, my self is in the past. If I am in deep tthought, my self is in my head. If I bang my knee, my self is in my knee. But mostly, it's sitting in a recliner, behind my eyes.. watching the world go by.. as it runs mostly on auto-pilot

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

It's size and shape is everything and nothing. Looking inward, it is nothing (and everything),.. looking outward it is everything (and nothing). It is consciousness and attention.. taking on the shape of where ever it is focused

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

The body-self is made of multiple minds with their own desires. They are the background noise and the voluntary chauffeurs. The true self communicates silently. Quietly pulling your attention here or there. Encouraging the rarely used free-will

What is found?

Only consciousness

[manofsands]

You read Gateless Gatecrashers- what did they say?

I read the first one and stopped. I didn't want a bunch of other people's experiences to taint or lead mine own

[manofsands]

I listened to the first 3 sessions. As they take a break, so am I. My brain feels like a muscle that's flexed much and needs a rest. I hope to get more sessions in before my day is over