Trying to break the first fetter

[alysson]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have a conceptual understanding that the self is an illusion and is just a story that keeps being told and retold by thoughts.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am a 47 year-old man who has struggled with depression, on and off, for most of my adult life. The old story of desiring something, achieving it and then realising that it was not enough. Recently, I have had some more clarity on this, on how my whole depression is caused by my inability to stay in the present moment and, instead, being completely imprisoned in thoughts about the future or the past.

In my most recent depressive episode, I got clarity that my old strategy of "desiring something else" would not work. This scared me as it closed the door to the unique path I new how to follow (the path of craving something, fantasising that this would "solve my life"). But it also had the effect of pushing me to the search for truth.

I am afraid of falling into the seeking and just making it another version of my old pattern: "when I break the illusion, I will be happy". I am hoping that guidance would help me avoid this pitfall while firing my honest earning for truth.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't have many established expectations. I feel lonely and, many times, lost. Having someone with whom I could communicate and ask questions would already help by forcing myself to look at things more closely. I also hope to get pointers more directly related to my own experience than those I get from reading books and watching videos.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been drawn to meditation several times during the past 10 years as a way to fight depression. However, I never established a consistent practice.

Earlier this year, I got drawn to the idea of non-duality and it started to appear to me as "the only way out". I've been, since then, doing intensive inquiry. As a single person, without kids and little social life, inquiry has been very present and occupies lots of my time.

I follow some people online and connect, for example, with the pointers by Angelo Dillulo, which, in my understanding, focuses a lot on defusion from thoughts: exploring that the thoughts appear but no one is thinking the thoughts. Exploring the visual field has been particularly helpful to me, and I have had glimpses of staying in the visual field and realising that there is just the seen and no one seeing it.

I also had a few experiences with psychedelics. I tried San Pedro, LSD and mushrooms. As I took SSRIs for more than 20 years (stopping about one year ago), I seem to have developed a tolerance for psychedelics but still had some interesting experiences, mostly with mushrooms. My last experience went into solipsism, when I was convinced that "everything was I". During the experience it seemed liberating, but the coming down from the trip was a bit hard. I also had a strange episode with LSD (which I mixed with cannabis): I didn't feel much but then, when I went to sleep, I woke up with an experience of depersonalisation which was hard to cope. The feeling returned thrice in the following two weeks and made me stop the inquiry for a while out of fear of dropping into that state. It's been a while since this experience, and I now feel I have integrated it.

As a final note, although I mention depression, I currently feel it's under control: I am doing all sorts of 'practical things' to cope with my mood (using resources that I learnt over a lifetime dealing with the illness) and what is left is a strong urge to question my beliefs and look into reality beyond thoughts.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Luchana]

Hi,
and welcome to the forum.
Glad you make it here. My name is Luchana and I can walk with you and see where the path is taking you if you are ok?

What name you prefer to call you?

I am afraid of falling into the seeking and just making it another version of my old pattern: "when I break the illusion, I will be happy". I am hoping that guidance would help me avoid this pitfall while firing my honest earning for truth.

So touching to read that there is an honest earning for truth.
Beautiful.

Having someone with whom I could communicate and ask questions would already help by forcing myself to look at things more closely. I also hope to get pointers more directly related to my own experience than those I get from reading books and watching videos.

Right.. Having someone to hold the mirror and ask questions is the best (in my experience) way to see through the belief that I I am separate, separate from the world.

As for the Insights you experienced with psychedelics - they have their place and are all ok.. But as you already notice all those no matter how profound may be appear and disappear. All insights/states are a subject to change inevitable.

Our investigation here is going to be focus only in your direct experience. For the truth is always there.

Let's start by looking here:

I have a conceptual understanding that the self is an illusion and is just a story that keeps being told and retold by thoughts.

Where is that self located when you look at it right here right now in this very moment?


Sending love,
Luchana

[alysson]

Dear Luchana,

Thank you so much for your kind words and availability. It means a lot to me.

I understand what you mean regarding psychedelics and the importance of focusing on the direct experience.

When I investigate for the self, I tend to note it around the chest area, just below the throat. Then, when I ask who is the one seeing that, it seems to move up, to somewhere behind the eyes. Doing it recursively (who's looking at the one who is looking at the one who is looking and so on), I feel that it dissipates somehow, and my experience goes towards the room where I am sitting. I guess it is a glimpse of the real, but I still get confused and doubt if it's not only my mind creating an image 'in the desire of seeing the self dissipate'.

Again, many, many thanks for your company.

[alysson]

And sorry, I forgot to say, you can call me Alysson, please.

[Luchana]

Hi Alysson and
thank you for your reply.

Thank you so much for your kind words and availability. It means a lot to me.

You are most welcome.

When I investigate for the self, I tend to note it around the chest area, just below the throat. Then, when I ask who is the one seeing that, it seems to move up, to somewhere behind the eyes.

Lovely to notice that sensation. And to notice the moving and shifting of it.

Let's look how do you know that this sensation/feeling is a self?

Bring it closely - does the raw sensation itself knows anything?

What is bringing the information that this sensation is a self?

Doing it recursively (who's looking at the one who is looking at the one who is looking and so on), I feel that it dissipates somehow, and my experience goes towards the room where I am sitting. I guess it is a glimpse of the real, but I still get confused and doubt if it's not only my mind creating an image 'in the desire of seeing the self dissipate'.

Right... we can have a look also here

Is there an expectation that the self exists and somehow will dissipate?

Sending love,
Luchana

[alysson]

Let's look how do you know that this sensation/feeling is a self?

Bring it closely - does the raw sensation itself knows anything?

What is bringing the information that this sensation is a self?

Right. I think I see where you are pointing to, and it kind of led me to change my question from 'where am I?' to 'what am I?'. I am investigating this in my inquiries now, more specifically asking myself "what is this raw sensation?". Right now, it seems related to the idea of the doer, the one who decides to do the enquiry, the one who is trying to look. I wonder if you have any pointers for this specific enquiry.

Is there an expectation that the self exists and somehow will dissipate?

Yes, I see what you are saying and, yes, I realise I am coming from the perspective that there is something that will dissipate. Maybe trying to change the inquiry question to investigate 'what is this something' can help. I do get a bit hung up in thought, trying to imagine what is going to be left if I can see through the illusion. While I know (conceptually) that somehow 'nothing is supposed to change', I still fantasise about the 'kensho experience', and I am trying to combat this by using the strategy of 'not that', 'not that' when getting stuck in a different feeling or experience and having my mind too eagerly trying to capture the feeling as if that is leading me to the awakening. Kindly reminding myself that 'it's not that' brings me back to the direct experience instead of having the mind trying to amplify any direct experience and, in the process, capturing it to itself.

Lots of things to process. Thanks again for your pointers. They are helpful!

[Luchana]

Hi Alysson,

Before we continue let me clarify how this dialog is happening so to speak.
My job is to ask questions, your is to look at experience and report what is seen/found.
Usually in the beginning there is a tendency to avoid looking and go into thinking... of course there is nothing wrong in that - we all do that habitually until we stop. But this doesn't work, thinking is utterly useless here.

Right. I think I see where you are pointing to, and it kind of led me to change my question from 'where am I?' to 'what am I?'. I am investigating this in my inquiries now, more specifically asking myself "what is this raw sensation?". Right now, it seems related to the idea of the doer, the one who decides to do the enquiry, the one who is trying to look. I wonder if you have any pointers for this specific enquiry.

When you ask those questions do you intensively look for the answers?

Or you think about the answers?



And we can question the doer and decider yea.. but let's first make the distinguish between thinking and looking
For this is crucial.

So let's start from here

When there is a thought about a unicorn what is REALLY true?

Look around literally - that there is a unicorn here in real life?

Or that there is a thought about a unicorn?

Please take a closer look and reply from experience.

Sending love,
Luchana



ps. Oh, we host a weekly meetings on Thursday usually and if you have a impulse to join let me know so I can provide details.

[alysson]

Before we continue let me clarify how this dialog is happening so to speak.

Understood. Thank you!!

When you ask those questions do you intensively look for the answers? Or you think about the answers?

I try to 'wait with openness'. I think I am becoming more aware and avoiding going into thinking, at least verbal thinking.

When there is a thought about a unicorn what is REALLY true? Look around literally - that there is a unicorn here in real life? Or that there is a thought about a unicorn?

I've been playing with this, and I can see that the unicorn appears in some thought space. This thought space seems to be somewhere in front of me, close to where I can 'hear the thinking voice'.

Visualising the unicorn makes me more aware of this space and helps me realise if I have gone there in my enquiry. It also made me somewhat more free to try to stay with the "I" feeling without the expectation that it will 'dissipate'. I will keep investigating.

ps. Oh, we host a weekly meetings on Thursday usually and if you have a impulse to join let me know so I can provide details.

I am afraid they will be in the middle of the night for me (I am in UTC+10), otherwise, I would love to join. Thank you once more!

[Luchana]

Hi Alysson,
thank you for your reply.

I've been playing with this, and I can see that the unicorn appears in some thought space. This thought space seems to be somewhere in front of me, close to where I can 'hear the thinking voice'.

With the eyes open right now in this very moment can you look

Is there a REAL unicorn or it is a thought about a unicorn?

The thought space you are describing - what is it made off?
Please take a glass in your hand and check - what is it made of? Glass?

Now look closely the so called "thought space" - what is it made of?

And let's play with the thinking voice

Who or what is speaking and who or what is listening?

How many are here?

I am afraid they will be in the middle of the night for me (I am in UTC+10), otherwise, I would love to join. Thank you once more!

Oh sure. You are welcome.

Sending love,
Luchana

[Luchana]

Hi Alysson
are you still with me?

[alysson]

Yes!! I am.

I am trying to explore the exercises as much as I can before answering so I can give answers based on my heart and experience.

I've been playing, especially with the thinking voice. The feeling oscillates between the idea that there is one person (I am the one controlling the voice and also the one listening) and two people (if I quiet down enough, I see that the thoughts arrive at me, and I have less control over them than I thought before). I will keep observing.

[alysson]

As for the thought space, I can see that the unicorn does not exist, but I don't know what this thought space is made of. As for the thinking voice consists of things I seem to control (when I evoke the unicorn, for example) and things that appear by themselves without my 'permission'.

The glass, on the other hand, presents a more controllable experience. When I look at it, it's always there. When I touch it, it presents the same sensations. Yes, it seems to be made of glass.

[Luchana]

Hi Alysson,
Glad you are here :-)
Sometimes a time is needed to look at the questions for a whole day, two or more and that is ok.
Sometimes there is a resistance to reply and that is ok too :-) If you notice a resistance share with me so we can have a look.

I see that the thoughts arrive at me, and I have less control over them than I thought before).

good... let's look together

Whether you can

Predict your next thought?

Think only positive thoughts?

Not thinking any negative thoughts?

Look at these questions one-by-one and reply from experience.

As for the thought space, I can see that the unicorn does not exist, but I don't know what this thought space is made of. As for the thinking voice consists of things I seem to control (when I evoke the unicorn, for example) and things that appear by themselves without my 'permission'.

Look closer - is it possible to not be able to see what is the thought space simply because it doesn't exists in realty?

Sending love,
Luchana

[alysson]

let's look together Whether you can Predict your next thought? Think only positive thoughts? Not thinking any negative thoughts?

I can't predict the next thought. If I quiet my mind to the point of noticing the arrival of a thought, it's very clear to me that I had no agency in that.

I can't think only positive thoughts.

I can't avoid negative thoughts. This one has always been clear to me as I often struggle with intrusive thoughts.

I guess my confusion came or comes from the fact that I seem to be able to say: "I will think about the unicorn now" and somehow succeed. However, your questions make me ponder about how much control I had when the thought "I will think about the unicorn now" itself arrived.

Look closer - is it possible to not be able to see what is the thought space simply because it doesn't exists in realty?

I am trying to observe what this thing I call 'thought space' is, and I see that it might be a construction: for example, I saw that the imagined location where the thoughts appear can change. But I still can't seem to get to the point of denying the existence of the thoughts themselves. For me, at this stage, they seem to be real. It is a different kind of reality than that of the glass that I held in my hands, but something seems to be there, something with the ability to change how I feel, for example.

Thank you!

[Luchana]

Hi Allyson,

I can't predict the next thought. If I quiet my mind to the point of noticing the arrival of a thought, it's very clear to me that I had no agency in that.

I can't think only positive thoughts.

I can't avoid negative thoughts. This one has always been clear to me as I often struggle with intrusive thoughts.

Nice :-)

How does it feel to see this?

I guess my confusion came or comes from the fact that I seem to be able to say: "I will think about the unicorn now" and somehow succeed. However, your questions make me ponder about how much control I had when the thought "I will think about the unicorn now" itself arrived.

All right

Let's look closer here:

What can a thought do?
Can a thought think?

Sending love,
Luchana