Stream Entry

[Nicholas]

Is there just the one sensation felt?

Water and two fingers touching each other

Does that mean all other sensations are totally blocked out?

Well, can’t notice them. Without the water they are VERY subtle because the hand is just in the air

Now feel in very gently. Are the muted sensations still there even though they may be very subtle? Can any subtle feeling be felt as well as the encompassing sensation?

Can’t feel them. Water just takes all the space.

Is the warm water sensation a 10/10 block or is there somehow a faint awareness of the other sensations?

10 block unless there’s another strong sensation like fingers touching

[Nicholas]

just in case...
my "sensation" sense is super weak.

I guess my stronger sense is the ear (as a musician)
and second would be visual (tend to notice details)
maybe third taste (I know how to cook well and put good flavors)
fourth smell (it's good but my nose is always clogged)
and last one tactile, the weakest.

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

OK with your affinity for music let's go to sound .

By the way as a musician what instruments do you play?




Please listen to the following link....

https://foundstoneco-my.sharepoint.com/ ... 0&e=TndRZE

I know this next question could be challenging but describe it as best you can
What is your direct experience as you listen to what's in this link?




Again we are going to take this very slowly. So this is all for today.


With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

By the way as a musician what instruments do you play?

Mostly keyboards. But can dabble on guitar, bass and drums.

What is your direct experience as you listen to what's in this link?

Seems to be raining, on the forest. There’s a high pitched sound that’s a bit painful. There’s a lot of high frequencies. And wind.

Sounds like a recording made outside. Sounds open. there seems to be layers of "rain falling sound".

maybe it's on the street, with cars passing by. that sounds likely too.

[Alless]

Mostly keyboards. But can dabble on guitar, bass and drums.

Lovely Nicholas !

Seems to be raining, on the forest.

This is a great example of the first thing that happens is the mind trying to figure this out. Right there is an example of listening to the sound THROUGH thought.
Notice all the labels you are attaching to it.

Sounds like a recording made outside. Sounds open. there seems to be layers of "rain falling sound".
maybe it's on the street, with cars passing by. that sounds likely too.

These labels or thoughts "veiling" direct experience. It is listening THROUGH thought.
Do you see what I'm meaning here when I say "listening THROUGH thought"?



The question is "What is your direct experience as you listen?"
Remember right at the start of the thread this was emphasised ....

So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

Also we looked at SEEING and discovered that seeing and color were two words that can be used interchangeably pointing to the same perceptual experience.

Likewise HEARING and SOUND are two words that can be used interchangeably pointing to the same perceptual experience.
Is that clear?




So listen to the clip again. Asking the following questions is a way to help reduce distraction through thought and be with the direct experience of sound.
Putting your attention on just the sound as best you can, in your experience of sound, with your eyes closed......
Does sound have an edge?



Does it have a shape?



Does it occupy just a part of your awareness or does it fill your "consciousness" (for want of a way of describing your perceptual experience)




At any given moment is there gaps in the sound?



Without reference to any pictures in the mind of your body or the physical space you are in, can you pinpoint precisely where the experience of sound is happening?



What was happening in the mind as you dedicated your attention/listening to just the sound?



With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Do you see what I'm meaning here when I say "listening THROUGH thought"?

Yep

Is that clear?

Yes

Some of the questions I put “?” because I can’t answer without invoking mind or just because I have no idea and to “have an idea” need to “think about it” (mind) or maybe because more questions pop up but they also involve mind.

Does sound have an edge?

?

Does it have a shape?

?

Does it occupy just a part of your awareness or does it fill your "consciousness" (for want of a way of describing your perceptual experience)

a part

At any given moment is there gaps in the sound?

?

Without reference to any pictures in the mind of your body or the physical space you are in, can you pinpoint precisely where the experience of sound is happening?

it’s just… there?

What was happening in the mind as you dedicated your attention/listening to just the sound?

Having thoughts related to this exercise. Focused on this.

How do I answer some of these? How do I answer without using mind? Do I just read the question and wait for answer to suddenly pop up? Because normally… when using mind… I would do stuff like… compare with other things etc etc, you know how it works.

[Alless]

Nicholas,

Do I just read the question and wait for answer to suddenly pop up? Because normally… when using mind… I would do stuff like… compare with other things etc etc, you know how it works.

Let's look at this issue of looking to the mind for an answer as compared to direct experience this way.

If I was to ask you to describe a rose right now you could do it in one of two ways.

1. Simply describe it from your memory of a rose (from thought)
OR
2. Actually look at a rose in front of you and then describing what you are seeing as you look at the rose. (direct experience.)

In #1 you are describing it from memory - THROUGH thought
In #2 you are describing what you SEE. You may say "But I am still using thought to describe it" And yes you are. But you are not describing what is real. Rather you are describing an ABSTRACTION (picture in the mind) You are going to what is real as the source of your inquiry. Yes, there is still interpretation as you endeavour to describe it however we are removing as many layers of thought as we can.

Likewise with hearing. If I asked you to describe the sound of hitting a bass drum you could

#1 Do it from memory. Doing this you are living in the past and not in the present moment.

OR

#2 Actually hit the drum and describe the qualities of sound as you listen. In all likelihood doing this a number of times you would start to hear aspects - and likely very subtle aspects - of that sound you had never noticed before.

Lived experience always precedes thought and speech ABOUT the lived experience.

For instance hitting your hand with a hammer typically causes intense pain. You can only truly know the experience of hitting your hand with a hammer. Thinking about it will never comes close although we may relive the moment and THINK it is the same, it never is.

Does this help at all or is this matter of direct experience still a foreign notion?

Some of the questions I put “?” because I can’t answer without invoking mind or just because I have no idea

When you say you "have no idea" does that mean
1. when you look you can't find an edge? And can't find a way to describe that ?
OR
2. you have no idea how to look / listen for an "edge"?



When you strike a note on your keyboard do you have to invoke thought to hear it?/



That unknown sound clip that I sent, did you have to invoke thought to simply hear the sound?




With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Does this help at all or is this matter of direct experience still a foreign notion?

Somewhat, but still not sure. Cause in the past I still made the mistake of relying on thought even when I thought I wasn’t.

When you say you "have no idea" does that mean
1. when you look you can't find an edge? And can't find a way to describe that ?
OR
2. you have no idea how to look / listen for an "edge"?

Well, let me show you:

Code: Select all

Does sound have an edge?

What’s an edge? It’s something visual and sound is not visual. So I have to put the sound in my mind as a visual object… and try to see which area its covering… and so…
(that sounds like mind rationalization)

Code: Select all

Does it have a shape?

Same as above

Code: Select all

At any given moment is there gaps in the sound?

If it plays continuously no, no gaps. And I have to really think about this question , because then I’m not sure what you mean by gaps, and I could tell you “oh of course there are no gaps because sound = hearing and it never ends”

But I had to THINK about it… and… isn’t that mind?
(that sounds like mind rationalization)

When you strike a note on your keyboard do you have to invoke thought to hear it?/

I don’t have to do anything to hear it.

That unknown sound clip that I sent, did you have to invoke thought to simply hear the sound?

nop

[Alless]

First of all, let's take what you said in this response Nicholas.

The question put was

At any given moment is there gaps in the sound?

Your first response is ..

If it plays continuously no, no gaps.

There is the answer right there. When you put your attention on the continuous sound you could not find any gaps. Perfect. No problem.

However you then go on and say......

And I have to really think about this question,

So the question comes now .....
Why would you have to even bother to think about it when the answer from your direct experience was clear?



BUT then it seems that you go to the mind to check whether or not it is true.
Is that what happens?

But I had to THINK about it… and… isn’t that mind?
(that sounds like mind rationalization)

Yes it is mind rationalization and you've recognized it right there. Twice in your post you recognized it.
So what options do you have once you've recognized that there is mind rationalization going on?




And on a technical note Nicholas Admin have told us there is scheduled system downtime happening.....

In the night of Wednesday, August 14th, between 22:00 and 0:00 CEST we will perform network maintenance in Amsterdam (AMS0).

With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Why would you have to even bother to think about it when the answer from your direct experience was clear?

Because I need to know HOW or WHY I came to that conclusion. Specially I want to avoid giving the “right answers” without “thinking” about them. How do I know if I really KNOW or if my unconscious is like “just say yes, it’s the right answer, even if you don’t believe it”

BUT then it seems that you go to the mind to check whether or not it is true.
Is that what happens?

Well… going to the mind allowed me to understand WHY there are no gaps.

So what options do you have once you've recognized that there is mind rationalization going on?

So now I’m 10x more confused because in this case, going to the mind for the WHY allowed me to actually see clearer. There are no gaps in sound, ever, in any sound. But I had to use mind. What now?!?!?!

And on a technical note Nicholas Admin have told us there is scheduled system downtime happening.....

No problem, doesn’t impact me

We are going to see the other questions right? (shape, edge, etc)

[Alless]

It's time to face the truth here Nicholas

Because I need to know HOW or WHY I came to that conclusion.

Needing to know HOW or WHY are the domain of illusion and this seems to be the crux of the difficulties you describe. It can be called the Tyranny of Thought.

At the very start of the thread you said....

I want to know the truth, even if it hurts.

There is no easy way to say this other than if you are not willing to totally relinquish the need to know HOW and WHY in this exploration then there is no point in us continuing.

It was pointed out when we started that direct experience - which is prior to and beyond the mind - is fundamental to realization. Thought is what keeps us bound to the illusion and stands in the way of the liberation you yearn for.

The truth can only be found if you are willing to not follow ANY thought. Yes, you may baulk at that and even feel great fear. But right there is the key to find truth. Do not follow any thought.

So you need to be totally honest with your self here. It's your call my friend. Take your time to answer this next question.

For the purposes of continuing this exploration are you willing to relinquish ALL dependence on the mind?






With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

For the purposes of continuing this exploration are you willing to relinquish ALL dependence on the mind?

This prompted a couple questions… but will ignore them.
So, as you said… will not follow ANY thought.

Let’s go

[Alless]

I missed sending a post yesterday because I needed to ponder how to continue.

Before we continue the question from the previous post needs to be answered Nicholas.

But first of all, you have been so wedded to thought and insisting that without thought you are not going to understand and then suddenly you say "Let's go."
What has changed / shifted for you to say this?




The question that hasn't been answered from the last post is....
Are you willing - truly willing - to relinquish ALL dependence on the mind?




What reactions do you feel as you see this laying aside of this mind that you prize so dearly is non-negotiable?




With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

What has changed / shifted for you to say this?

I don’t know. I’m just going to try to ignore thoughts altogether and look for the purest experience possible

Are you willing - truly willing - to relinquish ALL dependence on the mind?

I’m willing to try, even if that means I fail again. Then in that case you can kick me out so we don’t waste each others time.

I will put more attention, that’s all. That’s all I can do.

What reactions do you feel as you see this laying aside of this mind that you prize so dearly is non-negotiable?

Frustation, fatigue, uncertainty.

[Alless]

Ok Nicholas,

even if that means I fail again

Tell me Nicholas this that you call failure, what is it?





With love


Alan