Authentic

[LoLo123]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the "self" is something illusory, a made up story character. This self attaches to thoughts, opinions, beliefs which can cause suffering for me. Seeing that there is no real, inherent self is important to awakening and finding true freedom and liberation. The self is an imaginary construct which was created through conditioning.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to finally have the self dissolve. To not have a false self which causes suffering and conflict. I am looking forward to working with a guide who can point to me areas that I may be blind in.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
That the guide may suggest areas for me to look at which I may be blinded from seeing. To be able to share honestly with a guide who has found liberation from the self. For a guide to speak truth to me even if it is brutal to the self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Guided meditations, Angelo Dilillo and Ayadshanti teachings. Start started the first Fetter work with a Utube teacher. Daily inquiry. Sensation practices.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Heya LoLo123, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU. Let me know your name if you want me to call you something other than LoLo123 haha.

That the "self" is something illusory, a made up story character. This self attaches to thoughts, opinions, beliefs which can cause suffering for me. Seeing that there is no real, inherent self is important to awakening and finding true freedom and liberation. The self is an imaginary construct which was created through conditioning.

Ok, first things first, throw all this shit out the window! I hope you don't mind my language (I assume you're not the type to care, considering you're on this "path and all").
How do you know the "self" is illusory? How do you know it attaches to all these things? How do you know that that's the cause of your suffering? How do you know we can find true freedom and liberation? How do you know that we do that by seeing that there is no real self? This is all stuff you've read or heard in spirituality and I'm inviting you to forget it. Spiritual knowledge, is just that, knowledge. Same as religious and scientific knowledge. As much as possible, avoid picking up any more of these kinds of doctrines/teachings. Teachings can be valuable until you start to turn them into a new belief system.

I am looking to finally have the self dissolve. To not have a false self which causes suffering and conflict. I am looking forward to working with a guide who can point to me areas that I may be blind in.

Why? Why are you really on this path? Can you boil it down to a simple mission statement? Can you tell me exactly why you want "enlightenment"? If your mind spits out an answer "because I want *that*", then ask again: "Why do I want *that*?" Go aaaaalllll the way back until you know why you're really doing this.


I want you to be able to start right after my reading my reply, so let's first make a useful (yet artificial) distinction.
Your experience is made up of 2 main components:
1) Direct Experience (DE). This is your vision, sounds, sensations, tastes, and scents
2) Thought

Now, we're going to find out how much of your experience is really just thought. Try this and tell me how it goes
DE Inquiry: First, use meditation to quiet the mind somewhat. Then, inquire: "What's here that's not a thought?" Then, LOOK. If thoughts arise, note that those are just thoughts, don't judge them or yourself. Then, return to the question. If you find yourself judging, note that the judging itself is just more thought. Then, return to the question. LOOK in the gap. As soon as you notice that there is a gap, note that EVEN THAT NOTICING is another thought. Go back and back and back again. "What's here that's not a thought?" Look and see, man.

[ty0]

Sorry, I copy-pasted that last inquiry part. Look and see, man or woman! Hahah. Gender stuff is pretty funny

[LoLo123]

Hi Tyler and thanks for your quick reply. My name is Lorraine (childhood nickname LoLo). Thanks for being straight with me and no, the language doesn't bother me.

I had a sense when I was writing the answers to the questions that I was trying to come up with the "right answers" to get what I wanted, in with the club, with the guide, blah blah blah. So much for my name "Authentic"!

I want enlightenment so I will stop following thoughts and let them just pass on by.

DE Inquiry: I tried it and just keep coming up with nothing. And then that was a label, "nothing". Emptiness, space, black, it felt like.

Thank you very much for your time in working with me, Tyler. Sincere gratitude.

Lorraine

[ty0]

Hi Lolo, you're plenty authentic (whatever that means). Continue the inquiry and stay in the gap. If it feels like emptiness, space, or black, note that these are all things you're imagining (in other words, thought). Even before your mind verbalises "emptiness", the non-verbal perceptual overlay/intellectual understanding of "yep, this is empty space/blackness" can be there. Even in your vision, there are loads of morphing static-y shapes behind closed eyelids. Look again, what's here that's not a thought? And anything that comes up, is that a thought or not?

Equally as important, why do you want enlightenment?

[LoLo123]

Inquiry- sense slight sensation in my back, hear sounds, sensation in stomach. The sensations are there and then the thoughts attach to label the sensations after that.

There is resistance to meditation unless it's a walking meditation or guided meditation. No problem with inquiry so it appears.

Enlightenment means contentment, not in need of anything or attached to anything.

I did Ayawasca plant medicine last year and was totally content, absolutely in need of nothing, which lasted two weeks. It was just a glimpse, the realization is not to chase that experience I realize that. But the experience showed me something which I had thought was impossible, total contentment here in this world. So is that rather delusional of me to want that, as this body will sicken and die, changes happen in this world? Is it just to be content with whatever is, even with uncontentment in the moment?

[ty0]

What's wrong now? What's there to be discontent with? Where does your discontent come from?

You didn't really answer my question: Why do you want enlightenment?

Continue with the inquiry and stay with in the gap between thoughts. When you notice that labelling is a thought, notice that even the noticing of labelling being a thought is a thought. Follow the crumbs all the way back.

[LoLo123]

The discontent is that I have no control of what I do. I overindulge, I say things I don't mean, I spend too much money, I react too much, etc;
There is an acute awareness that these things are happening beyond my control. Sometimes it's laughable. I realize that all my suffering is based on judgements of these actions, of the "me". One the one hand there is a sense of freedom in that no control state. And on the other hand are the thoughts that I should be further along than that. And it is as if everything being done and said by me is pronounced more, more in my face to look at, deal with. Where before it was hidden, quietly subdued.

I want enlightenment to just be.

In the inquiry between the thoughts the "blackness" takes shape and moves, like breathing. Even a couple of small white lights. Then I realize I'm labeling and I go back and forth like this.

Thank you.

[ty0]

The discontent is that I have no control of what I do. I overindulge, I say things I don't mean, I spend too much money, I react too much, etc;
There is an acute awareness that these things are happening beyond my control.

Well, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but this is not a path of gaining control. Quite the opposite, actually hahahah. I would suggest that the discontent comes from wanting control over what you do and not having it. You believe the things you're doing are somehow wrong and you want your actions to change. What if you can't change your thoughts and actions? What if you're gonna do all these things for the rest of your life? How does that thought make you feel?

Where's the discontent now? What part of your experience is "wrong" that you wish to change right now? In the moment you're reading this?

[LoLo123]

Hello my friend.

Yes, I have been recently reflecting on this idea of my not having control over thoughts and actions. I mean it has become very apparent to me that I don't. There is some fear around harm coming to the body if I don't harness myself. So I have been experimenting with just letting the body do what it wants to do, rather spontaneously. And watching my judgements come up. And many times I don't even know what to do with regular day to day functions, I mean there really is no preference, the preferences are dissolving, bit by bit it appears. I'm actually ok if these thoughts/actions are here for the rest of my life for the most part. It's really only one area of distraction action that I'm in doubt about. But semi-willing to start surrendering and allowing the fears/guilt/shame come to the surface. As all that wants to seen, no longer hidden.

After reflecting on this, the discontent is no longer here, right here in this moment. Everything is as it is. Ahhhh, it's only when future/past thoughts arise does the discontentment come up. So the key is really seeing those thoughts as just thoughts, is that right?? In this moment I am totally willing.

Gratitude for you.

[ty0]

Yeah, control is an interesting one. What do you control? Do you control your heart beating? Do you control your thoughts? Do you control your emotions? If you raise your hand, did you control that? Or is there just a thought about raising your hand, and then the action? Do you control anything in your life at all? Are all of your plans and executions of them not just thought reacting to thought? Where is your place in all this? What do you control? Even when you feel like you're totally in control, what's REALLY happening? If you make a decision, where did the decision come from? Where did the desire to make it come from?

Ahhhh, it's only when future/past thoughts arise does the discontentment come up. So the key is really seeing those thoughts as just thoughts, is that right??

Well, suffering/discontent comes from wanting things to be different from how they are. Let's not slap a "key" onto anything for now, but seeing thoughts as just thoughts is very helpful, yes. Thought is NOT the problem though, I have plenty of thoughts about the past/future without any suffering arising as a result.

What's really interesting is how much of your "reality" is just thought that feels so real, you don't even know it's thought. Go back to the inquiry, but the focus now will not be staying in the gap. The focus will be noticing all thought that arises and seeing it as just thought. Go deeper and deeper and hack away at the layers of belief.

[LoLo123]

In Inquiry, watching the thoughts. Easy to see the thoughts and they float away. Yet when I'm going about my day and I get "trapped" in thought after thought and resulting painful sticky emotions, how to be aware in that mess? Is it just patience and practice that's required? I do recognize the narratives and train of thoughts going on, but it's always after experiencing a painful emotion or else I just snap out of the trance. More and more conscious of the thought trances, seems to be more awareness then when I first started.
So if thought is not the problem then is it the secondary thought train that is the problem? The opinion/belief/ image that then arises that I stick onto, is that the problem?

[ty0]

What do you do when you feel painful emotions? Time to take things off the mat. If your mind races when you feel bad, that just means you're trying to avoid the emotion. Inquiry is to dig things up, emotion work is to clean things up. The next time you feel intense emotions, can you just feel them? Don't even try to understand them or use inquiry to get rid of them.

Can you give me examples of a few things that trigger intense emotions in your life?

[LoLo123]

Examples of intense emotions:

Friends make a casual comment that I was not there for them or that I did or said something which was upsetting to them. Massive guilt which I then sit with, later. Images arise of my deceased husband and deceased mother. More guilt comes and usually tears for my friend, husband, mother. Shame also felt.

Friends say that I embaress them when out in public. Guilt, shame felt and I sit with those emotions usually next day. Sometimes, the emotions clear as new perceptions enter. Still, seems like they are still stuck, repressed.

Friends/family point something out to me, they don't like something I'm doing or saying. A small sense of shock in my body, and I usually freeze. I look at the emotions of anger, guilt, shame the next day.



These are the usual stuck ones.

[ty0]

Would it be accurate to say there's a strong resistance to feeling these emotions? Or that you're here because you want to stop feeling these emotions? Can you orient to fully feeling these emotions when they arise?

Try this:
1) Do a bit of inquiry and get the mind fairly quiet
2) Bring up these situations that cause these emotions in your mind
3) Ask: "What is it like to feel guilt/shame?"
4) Feel into the guilt and shame. If the emotion starts to fade, bring something to mind again that triggers the emotion
5) Feel deeper into the emotion. Where is it in the body? Is there resistance like a "No no no" to feeling the emotion? Can you feel the resistance and also the emotion? How fully can you feel the emotion?
6) Ask: "What's the story behind this feeling?" Don't go off into thought trying to find an answer, just focus on the question and see if a story comes up. It can be a story from childhood about how your parents treated you. It can be a story like "I'm not good enough".
7) If a story comes up, sit with it and feel into it. How fully can you feel into the story and the emotions that come with it?

You may notice that there's no part of emotion work that aims to get rid of an emotion or belief. Nor is there any aim to become still or peaceful. There's an army of negative emotion bashing the gate of your castle, and every time one slips past the gate it hurts so bad. Despite this, can you open the gate and give yourself fully to the emotions? Can you feel the pain and let it be?