Seeking help getting to the exit door

[Darrell]

I know you've said not to worry about it, but I try to always respond within a day or two, so you know the intention is there, that the desire is serious, and there is a commitment to this. The last week has been HAIRY. The last three days have been busy and intense. My wife had surgery on her back on Wednesday, albeit a day procedure. Then there were other doctors appointments Friday and Saturday. Not to mention a dog of ours who was seriously injured two Saturdays ago, and had a follow up appointment this week as well. There's more, but that's enough. It's been really tumultuous and seriously destabilized around here.

Okay, so enough of that. Regarding this:

You say that the sense of someone seeing vanished, but then you say that when that experience is present, you understand and know that it is fabricated.

If it is still there, but you have to intellectually remind yourself, then it is still there. This is why we look at any sense of self.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you referring to the choice of words? What I meant was that in that moment the sense of someone seeing was gone. I don't expect a habit of many decades to vanish just like that, but maybe I should. This process, while having had many moments of deep and profound insight, it seems like this process for "me" has been of the educational variety.

Now you say if I keep having to remind myself, how do we explain moments of insight that have shifted things, somewhat profoundly, but the habits of decades still being present?

Stumping the mind is good. Thinking about this will not help.

What evidence have you found that there is or isn't a self?

how do I address the question without thinking about it? I know you're liable to say I'm being conceptual, etc, but I really can't imagine working with the question without some level or degree of thought.

I haven't found much, the question really has posed some difficulty. As well, I tend to work with it while in motion, going about daily life. I'll have to sit down and do some writing, make notes from time spent directly working with it. No excuse, but this last week hasn't been as conducive as I'd have liked. It's been incredibly distracting, but I'm managing to get re-focused.

Where is the self in this?

Remember, we are looking for proof that you can present to a court

Okay, I'll use that as a basis for some specific direct writing and get back to you in a few days with my answer. Is that okay with you?

[Bluejay]

I'm not sure I follow. Are you referring to the choice of words? What I meant was that in that moment the sense of someone seeing was gone. I don't expect a habit of many decades to vanish just like that, but maybe I should. This process, while having had many moments of deep and profound insight, it seems like this process for "me" has been of the educational variety.

Now you say if I keep having to remind myself, how do we explain moments of insight that have shifted things, somewhat profoundly, but the habits of decades still being present?

I'm going to be as clear and direct as I can in this post. Ready? 😎

If you've believed in Santa and you see that Santa was never real, there is no longer a need to remind yourself of that fact. That assumption/belief vanishes and is never created again.

There can be moments of insight, but if the sense of self is still there, the fetter remains in place.

how do I address the question without thinking about it? I know you're liable to say I'm being conceptual, etc, but I really can't imagine working with the question without some level or degree of thought.

You are right that you need to use thought to some extent to understand the question, but we have to be more precise.

If I ask you what the weather is outside, you have two approaches:

1) You can look outside and see
2) You can remember what the weather was a moment ago, or what the weather report said

Looking outside is what this inquiry process is about.

You are still strongly engaged in thinking about this instead of looking. It's almost like you're dipping your toes in direct experience and then going to thought to understand. Continuing to try to figure this out cannot help you see through the self-illusion.

An example of thinking from a previous reply of yours:

"So I do what I just described above, looking in to the sight/vision, and the answer is "No, that's not me" ignore that and just stay with the sight? What if it's doing nothing? I ask that because I'd think sight wouldn't have those kinds of qualities you mention, other than it changing as things in the environment move about."

This inquiry is extremely simple. Looking at the weather outside is very simple. You don't have to try and figure out if you walk outside through the door or use the window.

I know this may be frustrating. Your pattern of going to thought may say "But what about..." And being pulled to thought is exactly the problem. There are no answers there.

If you want to see through this, you have to change course. Otherwise, we won't get anywhere.

When you feel a sense of self, notice where in the body it is, because this is where you look.

How can I help you switch to exploring your experience? Let me know what is unclear.

[Darrell]

Let's go back to this for a moment, where I said -

It doesn't speak directly to the question, "There is no self; is it true" the way I think you'd want it to, but it was something of a break through. Because after that, the sense of someone seeing vanished. It's just seeing, nothing more. Now it's understood that when that experience is present, it's not true/real. It doesn't mean I'll stop looking at/for that, but rather that it's understood what it is. It means I know that the sense of someone behind the eyes is just a fabricated thing, based on those sorts of components.

You responded with -

You say that the sense of someone seeing vanished, but then you say that when that experience is present, you understand and know that it is fabricated.

If it is still there, but you have to intellectually remind yourself, then it is still there. This is why we look at any sense of self.

Where was I reminding myself? I've read what I wrote a couple of times, and I'm not seeing what you are. Are you saying that at some point these times when the mind stitches things together and construes them as self stops altogether after the first fetter is dissolved? Do you mind if I ask what that feels and looks like, at least for you? Obviously you can't truly speak for someone else, so I'll just ask you about your experience.

The Santa Claus metaphor is understood, as it was the first time I heard Christina say it. In this case, what is it I'm still believing in?

If you want to see through this, you have to change course. Otherwise, we won't get anywhere.

When you feel a sense of self, notice where in the body it is, because this is where you look.

How can I help you switch to exploring your experience? Let me know what is unclear.

I desperately want to change course, but don't seem to be able to. There's a growing sense of desperation and helplessness.

I don't feel a sense of self in the body. I mean, it gets taken that way for a moment, by what seems like habit/conditioning. When I look directly at it, it's just contractions, general somatic sense, tension or other sensations. And it's not just a feeling in the body. It is usually, in fact almost always, stitched together with other senses, such as seeing, hearing etc.

I desperately want to be able to do this. I don't want to waste your time, or make things difficult, but I am at a loss for how to stop the analysis effect. I am willing to change course, but I don't know how to, and I'm not sure what/how to ask you to help me do that. I do this stuff every day, I'm constantly looking and asking myself "Where is the self in this?" and really looking, breaking it down, whatever I find that seems to constitute a self. Looking to find who makes decisions and how, or what it is that feels like a self, and still building the case against a self with "there is no such thing as a self - how do I know?"

If I can think of anything I can ask to help you to help me, I'll let you know. It will be the foremost thing on my mind for the next day or days.

[Darrell]

Oh, by the way. Nothing is unclear, I just don't know how to step away from this thinking mind.

[Bluejay]

Don't worry. You're not wasting my time. I also want to make sure that we are making progress, because if not, it may be better to work with someone or something else.

If you feel a sense of self, then the fetter is in place. When the belief is gone, it is gone, like the Santa metaphor.

You don't have to stop the analysis, but re-focus on looking. If you're looking at nature and thought comes in to analyze, you bring yourself back to the present moment to keep looking.

What is the entity that is desperately trying to change course?

Look right now if you can and describe what you find.

[Darrell]

Looking right now, I don't find anyone. What I find is looking, hearing, the general overall bodily sensation, as well as other sensations such as tiredness, and a feeling of stimulation (doctor prescribed steroids today, not a fan). There's thought.

A huge amount of time was spent on this today, while waiting in the doctors office. That was two hours, half of which was spent investigating and asking questions, such as what is it that feels like a self right now? When looking directly at it, it's just all these sensations. Yet when getting distracted and carried away in the moment, sometimes something happens where it feels like there's a self there. Then that is understood, and attention is brought back to the moment, and it's a feeling of "where the heck did that self go?" Very little think was involved, it was mostly just really paying attention diligently.

After your response yesterday, a tremendous amount of effort is going towards looking at what is here, right now. Much of the time, no one is found, it's just sensations, although they are usually stitched together. Sometimes, not always, when that happens this composite is taken as an "I"

I went back through some of the instruction/suggestion I've saved, and I found this one:

1. Don't dismiss the sense of I as a thought, but allow it to be there
so it can be explored.

2. Go into the components of the sense of I. You already identified
where the sense is. You could also zoom into the sensations that feel
like an I. Look into each sensation and ask: Is this sensation the I?

3. Ignore thoughts that come with an answer. Instead, just stay there.
Ask the question, and then stay with the sensation that feels like I.
Observe the sensation. What is it doing (pulsing, shimmering, moving, etc)?

So I allow the sense of self to be there, which is usually just a mix of sensations taken as someone, even though it doesn't feel strongly like someone, some times not at all. They really don't feel like me, just sensations, but then the question is asked "Is this sensation the I? No, it is not. I just stay with that, without thought, and the sensation often fades or recedes. What is it doing? Nothing. It's just there. The general bodily sensation does feel very subtly effervescent, like energy buzzing. But almost all just are there.

The sense of sight tends to dominate, so attention goes there. Is this the sense of I? Does it feel like me? No. It's just seeing, it's not personal, it's not me. I watch what it does, which is to move around or change.

The entity that is desperately trying to change course? It's a contraction in the body, a strong feeling of fear and sadness, interpreted as desperation. There's desire or longing. There's an *idea* of someone who wants this, but that someone doesn't appear to be present. With that idea, another contraction that masquerades as someone. Nothing else is found.

The idea that someone is here, is just that, an idea. It might have sensations attached to it, but without the idea, it's just sensations.

This "There is no self, is it true?" is still a work in progress. I spent time on that today as well. It's deceptively difficult.

My dogs just barked and there was an intense reaction. In that moment of telling them to quiet down, there was a looking for who didn't want that. There was a strong negative reaction aka 'not wanting' or aversion, there was contraction, there was an idea that someone didn't want that, and a story associated with it, but again, no one was actually found.

[Darrell]

Henri,

I've thought of something you can do to help. How can we ferret out this belief there's someone here. I mean, much of the time it's clear there's not a someone here. As an example, I play guitar just for enjoyment, although I once was a professional musician. When I play, I frequently watch very carefully, to see who is deciding to play what is being played. It's always clear these things just happen on their own. But there have been so many years of the assumption that there's a "me" doing things, that it seems habitual and ingrained. This is what seems to be at work in these other areas, too. So, how to get that undeniably clear, that there's not anyone doing anything, in a deep down way?

How to locate the belief, really target it, and find all it's hiding plays (metaphorically, that is. Or maybe literally?) How to get clear on how the belief is here, to really see it sharp and in focus? Is this possible?

[Darrell]

Henri,

I've thought of something you can do to help. How can we ferret out this belief there's someone here. I mean, much of the time it's clear there's not a someone here. As an example, I play guitar just for enjoyment, although I once was a professional musician. When I play, I frequently watch very carefully, to see who is deciding to play what is being played. It's always clear these things just happen on their own. But there have been so many years of the assumption that there's a "me" doing things, that it seems habitual and ingrained. This is what seems to be at work in these other areas, too. So, how to get that undeniably clear, that there's not anyone doing anything, in a deep down way?

How to locate the belief, really target it, and find all it's hiding plays (metaphorically, that is. Or maybe literally?) How to get clear on how the belief is here, to really see it sharp and in focus? Is this possible?

[Bluejay]

Hi Darrell,

To locate the belief, find out what the self actually does. This time, don't zoom in on the components.

When you feel a sense of self, what exactly is the self doing or trying to do?

Is it controlling something, thinking, experiencing, deciding, or something else?

[Darrell]

Okay, I'll work with this. It's not completely clear, but am not going to ask for clarification, for fear of getting in the head, thinking and analyzing, otherwise going intellectual this.

If some time is spent just sitting with what you've said, it will likely come clear.

There's not much of a sense of self, certainly not as there once was. It has become quite subtle. The strongest sense of someone seems to be in two places. First is in the visual sense, to the point that when closing the eyes, the body between 'in here' and 'out there' almost completely disappears, and it becomes 'just this' or 'all this'. The boundary that used to begin or end at the skin, 'in here' and 'out there' has become much less clear and distinct.

The second place, it shows up more strongly, is a type of thought. It's not words, the way most hear a voice in the head. It's non verbal, but when going about daily affairs, I frequently notice this non-verbal voice that creates a sense of "This is me" or "This is mine", what I have referred to as the 'subtle sense of ownership of experience', which incidentally, I heard Anthony Dulillo describe this same thing in a talk he gave at POK two years ago. This second one I've been looking at very closely today, just to be clear on what is being seen.

I'm also working with the questions Christiane offers at the end of the chapter about the first fetter in her book. I'm hoping it will help reinforce what we're doing.

[Bluejay]

I've noticed that you often seem to drift away from the focus of the inquiry on the self illusion.

For example, you go into exploring boundaries and what has changed, instead of focusing completely on the self.

It's wonderful that you notice all these things, but it's not the focus, which is why I'm constantly bringing you back to the self.

You need to find what the self is claiming or trying to do, otherwise there is no tackling the belief, because we have nothing to work with.

It may be helpful to keep the questions from my previous post in front of you so you can stay focused.

🎅🏻🎅🏻🎅🏻

[Darrell]

Can you give me an example? I assume you're referring to reading from Christiane's book. I'm just trying to find things to strengthen or reinforce the inquiry. I have found that seeing things from a different angle frequently helps clarify things. I will stop doing that, if that's what you are referring to, it *has* helped, but point taken. If it's something else, then if you could give me an example, that would help. I have no idea what boundaries I've been exploring, or what has changed that I'm looking into. It helps to be really specific, so I can know what you're referring to, and what to drop, not get caught up in, etc.

I always copy and paste your responses into an email, and refer back to it, as I often have the phone nearby. Although the last two days I've been very focused on this, more than the previous weeks. Intently so, but I've been using what you wrote here because it makes sense in a way that some things you've given me to work with don't. Hopefully that's not more of what you described in your first two sentences.

1. Don't dismiss the sense of I as a thought, but allow it to be there
so it can be explored.

2. Go into the components of the sense of I. You already identified
where the sense is. You could also zoom into the sensations that feel
like an I. Look into each sensation and ask: Is this sensation the I?

3. Ignore thoughts that come with an answer. Instead, just stay there.
Ask the question, and then stay with the sensation that feels like I.
Observe the sensation. What is it doing (pulsing, shimmering, moving, etc)?

But now I'm not 'zooming in' per your most recent instruction. I've been trying to see clearly what this belief is. I sincerely hope this isn't more of the drifting away you refer to.

In looking, the only thing that feels like a self is this mental sense, this non-verbal mental talk I keep referring to, that wordlessly says/assumes "This is me, this is mine" and what that refers to is experience, seeing, hearing, feeling. The ownership of experience. The belief, which could also be referred to as an assumption, is that if there's experience being perceived, there must be someone or something to receive it, to know it, to have it. Seeing, hearing, doesn't feel like self or "me" until that belief/assumption claims experience for itself.

I apologize if I've drifted away, digressed, or any of the other things I tend to do. What is written above was the result of sincere, diligent looking done over the course of yesterday. I'm constantly looking for where the self is in things. It seems that this is now work to get at something subtle. It's not the gross level name, personal history, job, bank account, that most take to be who they are. Maybe that's mistaken, but that's what it looks like from here.

Something happened in July of 2023, and there was a shift. Something changed. The previous guide gave me the questions, he turned the answers in to whoever looks at that. They felt I had passed through the gate. I felt something was missed, something didn't feel right about that. The decision was made to keep at this, and I asked for a new guide, who of course is you. I say all that to say this. I'm doing this because I want and need to. I'm committed to it, and am not willing to give up or take the easy way out. Sometimes there's irritation or annoyance when you tell me that I'm getting distracted, etc. But I appreciate you holding me to this, and not letting me get lost. It's not easy, and I appreciate and respect that. So I'm willing to see this through. If you get the impression there's an intention to try to avoid the work at hand, that isn't the case. It's not deliberate or intentional, but then nothing actually is, anyway.

[Darrell]

Update:

Just focusing on and working with this -

To locate the belief, find out what the self actually does. This time, don't zoom in on the components.

When you feel a sense of self, what exactly is the self doing or trying to do?

Is it controlling something, thinking, experiencing, deciding, or something else?

[Darrell]

It's easy to see self, or what isn't self when looking at sensations.

When feeling a sense of any kind of self, looking for it directly isn't as easy. Here's what I've experienced, I'm asking to see if I'm on the right track, although maybe you wouldn't mind describing what you or others experienced with this, just to have some idea if this is what we're after.

What I've been experiencing is that there's this perceiver, if something is seen or heard, desired, if there's aversion to something, that there has to be a perceiver of that. The one who sees, hears, desires, doesn't want, and so on. That's what it looks like in my actual experience, in that moment when looking. But it's not as obvious and easy to see as other things I've worked with. It's subtle. There's a sense it is built on a previously unconscious idea, or a, wait for it... belief. It's something that has been unconscious, unexamined and is sort of sneaky. It's almost as if it tries to remain hidden. Okay, I'm getting conceptual, but I am sincerely trying to do the best I can to report how this has been experienced, and that is the experience so far. It's not easy to describe after the fact, even though I made notes to not forget.

I'm continuing to do this diligently, to try to see it more clearly.

[Bluejay]

Frustration and irritation is definitely normal in this inquiry. I appreciate your persistence. This is not an easy path :)

Let's look at this:

The belief, which could also be referred to as an assumption, is that if there's experience being perceived, there must be someone or something to receive it, to know it, to have it. Seeing, hearing, doesn't feel like self or "me" until that belief/assumption claims experience for itself.

So in rough terms, the belief is: There must be someone/something to receive experience

You can hold this in mind, and then explore: What entity or self is receiving experience?

Where is it?