Guide Wanted: Want to Let Go of Fear & Know Who I Am

[Savita]

Hi

The story of my seeking goes way back. I went from one identification to another from childhood to adulthood - catholic, agnostic, atheist, spiritualist, pagan, pantheist - to nothing; no categorization. In high school, I questioned the meaning of the Universe, wondered if we were all living a dream, and thought about the possibility that I existed only as a pawn in some giant's chess game. There has been a lifelong search for understanding (lots of time wasted on that one), love (still working on the self-love bit), and knowing through direct experience.

While I am familiar with non-duality and can grasp these concepts intellectually, I am challenged to participate in non-duality verbal Jiu Jitsu to save my life. I often experience: connection and wonder; deep stillness; an expanding feeling of oneness; a dissolution of the physical self; an overflowing impersonal fountain of love; and recently, the space of "I am".

As thoughts and emotions arise, they are noticed and looked at... and often let go. Recently however, fear seems to be arising everywhere I turn in waking and dreaming. I have recently awoken from dreams where I am presented with the choice to "know god (for lack of a better word)"... but when I feel as if I am falling and about to lose everything, fear overcomes me and I do not leap. The fear appears to have been there since childhood and perhaps it is coming up more acutely now, so as to be released.

The "I" is resisting so much right now, even though there is an understanding that what is being resisted is an illusion. Argh!!! I want to be completely free of the shackles of fear and of self; so that life may be experienced with greater ease. I want to know, once and for all, who I am.

Namaste
Savita

[cosmiK]

Hey Savita,

I'll be your guide. I'm kinda ruthless, and will push you to the edge. Only you can see yourself though.

A few agreements before we can begin:

1. You agree to post at least every day.
2. I will post questions, and you will answer them.
3. When you answer you answer 110% honestly,
4. and when you do answer, you answer from your direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function.


------


Assuming that you agree... let's get started:

but when I feel as if I am falling and about to lose everything, fear overcomes me and I do not leap. The fear appears to have been there since childhood and perhaps it is coming up more acutely now, so as to be released.

you are approaching the unknown. look behind fear. ask it what is it protecting?

fear arises when there is something to protect. in a dark alley with someone chasing --> run BUT investigating truth --> face fear directly. allow it. look right at it.

The "I" is resisting so much right now, even though there is an understanding that what is being resisted is an illusion.

Where is this "I" that is resisting?
It seems like the "I" is resisting the "I"?
How does that work exactly?

Argh!!! I want to be completely free of the shackles of fear and of self;

Where is this "I" that is trapped in 'shackles of fear and of self'?

From my understanding "I" is just a thought... how can a thought be trapped in shackles of fear and self?

I want to know, once and for all, who I am.

this question you ask is based on an assumption that there is something to find... some 'true self' or something.

Are you aware that this processes falsifies the claim that there is any self at all?


Let's do this.

[Savita]

Hello cosmiK
I agree to the terms.

you are approaching the unknown. look behind fear. ask it what is it protecting?

The fear is protecting what I have come to believe as "my life" as well as what I am calling "sanity". It is protecting me from becoming: unmotivated (to create, to write, to dance, to work, etc.), homeless, and from losing my mind.

Where is this "I" that is resisting?

The "I" that is resisting, is a thought that there is an "I".

It seems like the "I" is resisting the "I"?
How does that work exactly?

Yes, it feels that the "I" is resisting the "I". A thought resisting a thought. The resisting "I" taking on the costume of higher knowledge and choosing a direction for the lesser "I". These are thoughts becoming roles inside my mind.

Where is this "I" that is trapped in 'shackles of fear and of self'?

There is a feeling of constriction in my throat. Of being choked up. The "I" is a thought but that thought is being felt in my body.

From my understanding "I" is just a thought... how can a thought be trapped in shackles of fear and self?

The "I" feels encased in another "I", which feels encased in another "I"... and so on. A thought within a thought within a thought. Logically, I understand that a thought cannot be trapped. When there is an impersonal thought such as "it is raining", there are no layers. When there is a thought about myself... layers form... new thoughts about an experience... or thoughts about thoughts. Many of them are judgments.

Are you aware that this processes falsifies the claim that there is any self at all?

Yes, cosmiK, I am aware of this. Yet here we go!

[Savita]

Hello cosmiK

Sat with fear again later on tonight... and saw that fear is also protecting me from losing "empathy" and "compassion". Is it even possible to feel empathy when there is no self?

Thank you,
Savita

[cosmiK]

Hey Savita,

The fear is protecting what I have come to believe as "my life" as well as what I am calling "sanity". It is protecting me from becoming: unmotivated (to create, to write, to dance, to work, etc.), homeless, and from losing my mind.

Thank the Fear for it's clear message.

What if all that happened did so without a "me"?

What if whatever is experienced now, is experienced with a separate 'you'?

What if whatever happens will also just happen, with a separate self?

There are assumptions that there is a center of "I"/me... but is there? This is the investigation in to the self-referencing nature of thoughts, and this is your work. Question every assumption of "my life", "protecting me", "my mind". Where is this "me"?

Is it that all of a sudden the "me" or You will dissapear after seeing no-self?... or is it that there NEVER WAS a self, and that is finally seen clear?

The "I" that is resisting, is a thought that there is an "I".

A thought cannot resist another thought. There maybe a few thoughts in succession, and maybe some sensations that may be labelled "resistance".

Yes, it feels that the "I" is resisting the "I". A thought resisting a thought. The resisting "I" taking on the costume of higher knowledge and choosing a direction for the lesser "I". These are thoughts becoming roles inside my mind.

Some thoughts may be labelled "thought taking the costume of higher knowledge and choosing..."
other thoughts may be labelled "less I"
another thought that says "yes.. it feels like "I" is resisting the "I""
thoughts, thoughts, thoughts.

Many refer to "mind". Is perhaps this "mind" just a label that refers to a stream of thoughts, and perhaps some sensations labelled "head"?

Your mind? :) Where is the You?
self-referencing paradise!
LOOK Deeply... find this center that is assumed to be real... assumed to be You!

There is a feeling of constriction in my throat. Of being choked up. The "I" is a thought but that thought is being felt in my body.

There are some sensations labelled "constriction in my throat... of being choked up".

There are sensations labelled "body"

there are thoughts which start with "I ..."

Drop the labels and feel, be with What-IS, whatever-that-IS.
and LOOK DEEPLY to find this "I"... this "self".

The "I" feels encased in another "I", which feels encased in another "I"... and so on. A thought within a thought within a thought. Logically, I understand that a thought cannot be trapped. When there is an impersonal thought such as "it is raining", there are no layers. When there is a thought about myself... layers form... new thoughts about an experience... or thoughts about thoughts. Many of them are judgments.

Thoughts cannot get encase in other thoughts, or get trapped. There can be several thoughts, and other thoughts that claim such things...
thoughts, thoughts, thoughts.

where is this 'myself' that the thoughts point to?

are thoughts ever personal or impersonal? if so where is the person that it points to? where is the claimant of this thought?

Is there ever anything more than 1) thoughts, 2) sensations (5 senses), 3) a sense of aliveness/being/presence?
is any of this ever personal? if so... where is the claimant.

LOOK Deeply @ thoughts... is that I/me?
LOOK Deeply @ sensations... is that You?
LOOK Deeply @ presence... is that a separate self?

any self-referencing thoughts "oh but... that is me!"... question that... LOOK Deeply... where is this self that is separate? where oh where can it be?

Yes, cosmiK, I am aware of this. Yet here we go!

Let's do this!!! :)

Sat with fear again later on tonight... and saw that fear is also protecting me from losing "empathy" and "compassion". Is it even possible to feel empathy when there is no self?

Whatever WAS felt, including empathy, was felt without there being an actual "I" or "me"!

Whatever is experienced NOW... is experienced without a separate self!

Whatever WILL BE experienced, including compassion... will be experienced without a YOU!

Before seeing through the illusion of the separate self, experience is conceptualy divided = Separation. Where is the empathy in that? Where is the compassion in that?

After seeing through the illusion of the separate self, there is just this... this alive Expression... this Experience.. this Life.

Whatever idea and image and expectations you have about seeing no-self, is just that... a thought, an image, an idea... Expectations are attachments to an imagine future/self and will not serve you. Drop it. If it arises again. Drop it again.

I look forward to your next response.

[Savita]

Thank you for the response, cosmiK.
Also thanking Fear, for the clear message.

So, here goes!

What if all that happened did so without a 'me'?

None of the thoughts of fear would matter. The thought that there would be "someone to blame" wouldn't be believed. Life would just be what it is.

What if whatever is experienced now, is experienced with a separate 'you'?

I see this and don't see this. Experience itself isn't experienced with a separate 'me'... but there is interpretation, labelling, and judging, which give a sense that there is a separate 'me'; a 'me' doing all that.

What if whatever happens will also just happen, with a separate self?

If all that happened without a "me", there would be no judging thoughts; no blaming thoughts.

There are assumptions that there is a center of "I"/me... but is there? This is the investigation in to the self-referencing nature of thoughts, and this is your work. Question every assumption of "my life", "protecting me", "my mind". Where is this "me"?

There is no 'me'. 'Me' is a habit; a habitual way of thinking.

Is it that all of a sudden the "me" or You will dissapear after seeing no-self?... or is it that there NEVER WAS a self, and that is finally seen clear?

Well... seeing no-self has not made the thought that there is a 'me/I' disappear. So another thought appears, which is that 'I' am not really seeing it clearly enough for the 'I' to dissolve altogether. When seeing clearly, does the 'I' thought identification completely disappear?

A thought cannot resist another thought. There maybe a few thoughts in succession, and maybe some sensations that may be labelled "resistance".

Okay,... there is resistance.

Many refer to "mind". Is perhaps this "mind" just a label that refers to a stream of thoughts, and perhaps some sensations labelled "head"?
Your mind? :) Where is the You?

I can't tell where mind is, or if it even exists. I see that it is used as a label for a 'stream of thoughts'. 'Mind' works together with the body to produce or reduce some sensations. The product of thought and sensation together, seem real... seem to be 'me'. Yet, there have been experiences of seeing through this. Don't know how to see through this ALL of the time. Constriction is felt at that thought.

where is this 'myself' that the thoughts point to?

It cannot be found when looking deeply.

are thoughts ever personal or impersonal? if so where is the person that it points to? where is the claimant of this thought?

Thoughts are just thoughts. Ones that are judged give the impression of belonging to 'someone'; of being personal.

Is there ever anything more than 1) thoughts, 2) sensations (5 senses), 3) a sense of aliveness/being/presence?

I don't know if there is ever anything more. Perhaps there is, but I am unable to perceive it.

is any of this ever personal? if so... where is the claimant.

It's only personal in identification with the thought, sense, or presence. Identification is a thought. The claimant is a series of memories and thoughts housed in a 'body' of experience.

LOOK Deeply @ thoughts... is that I/me?
LOOK Deeply @ sensations... is that You?
LOOK Deeply @ presence... is that a separate self?

No. No. And no.

Before seeing through the illusion of the separate self, experience is conceptualy divided = Separation. Where is the empathy in that? Where is the compassion in that?

You make valid points, yet where are empathy and compassion if one cannot relate to another's suffering because it is brushed off as a story?

There's a sense of frustration while answering these questions. Knowing the 'right' answers but not wanting to shortcut this process just because intellectually, I 'get' it.

Wanting to scream, cosmiK.
Savita

[cosmiK]

Hey :)

None of the thoughts of fear would matter. The thought that there would be "someone to blame" wouldn't be believed. Life would just be what it is.

Who or what believes thoughts. Look deeply.

I see this and don't see this. Experience itself isn't experienced with a separate 'me'... but there is interpretation, labelling, and judging, which give a sense that there is a separate 'me'; a 'me' doing all that

Yes thoughts label,interpret, conceptualizer. But. Thoughts are just thoughts.
Is there a thinker of thoughts?
Do these thoughts arise to anyone?
There is Experience, and thoughts about it, which is also Experience. There is ONlY Experience. All happening to no one and no thing. No centre. Refer to your here and now experience and CHECK.

If all that happened without a "me", there would be no judging thoughts; no blaming thoughts.

Ever after seeing no self, all sorts of thoughts arise. Do you have any lingering expectations about how this will be? Drop it, drop it, drop it :)

Well... seeing no-self has not made the thought that there is a 'me/I' disappear. So another thought appears, which is that 'I' am not really seeing it clearly enough for the 'I' to dissolve altogether. When seeing clearly, does the 'I' thought identification completely disappear?

Thoughts thoughts thoughts. Does it matter what thoughts say?

When clearly seen, it is clear that there is no self. No separation. No experience-er. No perceive-er. It's usually an unmistakable shift. Thoughts will continue to arise, however. It's just part of the show.

It matters not what thoughts arise. Don't battle thoughts... who would do such a thing anyway? :)

I can't tell where mind is, or if it even exists. I see that it is used as a label for a 'stream of thoughts'. 'Mind' works together with the body to produce or reduce some sensations. The product of thought and sensation together, seem real... seem to be 'me'. Yet, there have been experiences of seeing through this. Don't know how to see through this ALL of the time. Constriction is felt at that thought

Isn't "body" also a label given to a collection of sensations? Namely tactile and kinaesthetic?

Whatever seems to be real... Look deeply... Is there EVER a self? Is there a self when you don't look? Is there a self when a thought says "don't know how to see through this ALL the time?".

Drop labels such as "constriction" and just let the sensation do its thing. Feel it fully. It is felt by no one and can harm no one.

I don't know if there is ever anything more. Perhaps there is, but I am unable to perceive it.

Just stick to your experience. Use these 3 aspects I gave you to confirm for me that is all there is in your experience, and use it to break down any assumption. There is just Experience, and this can be skilfully broken down and deconstructed as such.


[quoteIt's only personal in identification with the thought, sense, or presence. Identification is a thought. The claimant is a series of memories and thoughts housed in a 'body' of experience. ][/quote]
Yes, all just thoughts. Self referencing silly thoughts. Nothing personal because there is no person. Never was, not now, never will be.... regardless of identification thoughts or thoughts of tooth fairies :)

You make valid points, yet where are empathy and compassion if one cannot relate to another's suffering because it is brushed off as a story

You have some assumption that Awakening from separation will make you a zombie... Drop any assumptions. Your process will be unique. Some may seek more alone time, but this is not a lack of compassion. Others feel more "close" to others because there is NO separation, because their relationship to others is not filtered through a story. Others feel compassion because they are only ever dealing with themselves... What "others"? I advise dropping these concerns and focusing on Awakening, I advise dropping these assumptions and expectations and focusing on Freedom.

There's a sense of frustration while answering these questions. Knowing the 'right' answers but not wanting to shortcut this process just because intellectually, I 'get' it.

Answer all my questions with complete honesty. That is the Right way. There is no Right answer... There is just working with whatever assumption is present... Deconstructing it... Looking behind it...and deeply looking for this assumed separate self.

Frustration is good. It means you are getting tired of the bullshit. Are you tired of the bullshit?


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A few exercises:

Refer to direct experience only... Thoughts, sensations, being ness... Simple here and now Experience. No speculations... Just ruthless and direct investigation!

1) pick an object. Look at it, Is there a perceiveR? Or is that simply another perception... So.. Only perception?

Is it possible that there is only perception with no centre... Free from any separation?

2) get up... Walk slowly... Is there a You controlling and making walking happen? Or is walking just happening?

Is it possible movement and actions just happen... And then a thought arises that says "I am walking! I am doing it! Look at me!". CHECK.... Action, then claimant-thought.

3) listen to sounds... Is there a hearer? Or just sound? If there is a hearer... Is that just another bunch of sensations?

4) close eyes.... Watch thoughts come and go.... Is there a thinker of thoughts? Can YOU think and Choose a thought?

5) pick whatever activity,whenever, wherever.... Is there an agent/controller/doer? If so find it? Or is it just happening?

6) pick a few activities. Do them slowly. Is there an Experience-er experiencing? Or is that also just part of the experience, which is habitually conceptually divided by thought in to "me" + "what is experienced"?

Get back to me when you've had time to spend time with these exercises and look deeply.

Look forward to your next response!

[Savita]

Hi cosmiK

I will respond tomorrow, if all right. Want to give these exercises some deep attention.

Thanks
Savita

P.S. I am tired of the bullshit! :)

[cosmiK]

Savita. Good! That is fine. Look forward to your responses.

[Savita]

cosmiK, thank you for the invitation to LOOK DEEPLY and the time allowed for this.

Drop any assumptions. Your process will be unique. Some may seek more alone time, but this is not a lack of compassion. Others feel more "close" to others because there is NO separation, because their relationship to others is not filtered through a story. Others feel compassion because they are only ever dealing with themselves...

Since the last communication where you shared the above, this happened...

Assumptions dropped.
Relaxed.
Relaxed.
Relaxed.
A thought.
Looking.
Seeing assumptions.
Looking.
Seeing beliefs.
Looking.
Seeing judgments.
Looking.
Sensing/feeling.
Holding sensing/feeling.
Holding.
Awareness
Oneness

Deconstruction.
-------------------------------------------------

Answers to your questions:

Who or what believes thoughts? Look deeply.

A thought does.

Is there a thinker of thoughts?
Do these thoughts arise to anyone?

No, there is no thinker, with thoughts simply arising in awareness.

Do you have any lingering expectations about how this will be? Drop it, drop it, drop it :)

Definitely expectations! ... and they dropped. ;)

Thoughts thoughts thoughts. Does it matter what thoughts say?

Absolutely not.

Don't battle thoughts... who would do such a thing anyway? :)

A thought would. They can be ruthless that way. :)

Isn't "body" also a label given to a collection of sensations? Namely tactile and kinaesthetic?

Yes, the body is part of the soup within the container of awareness.

Whatever seems to be real... Look deeply... Is there EVER a self? Is there a self when you don't look? Is there a self when a thought says "don't know how to see through this ALL the time?".

There is no self. Self is a label given to sensation and thought. Self is perpetuated by thought claiming sensations and thoughts.

You have some assumption that Awakening from separation will make you a zombie... Drop any assumptions. Your process will be unique. Some may seek more alone time, but this is not a lack of compassion. Others feel more "close" to others because there is NO separation, because their relationship to others is not filtered through a story. Others feel compassion because they are only ever dealing with themselves... What "others"?

Thank you. Both were experienced - no separation because of lack of filtering, and compassion because the "other" is "I AM".

1) pick an object. Look at it, Is there a perceiveR? Or is that simply another perception... So.. Only perception? Is it possible that there is only perception with no centre... Free from any separation?

There is only perception. And yes, it is possible for perception to have no centre.

2) get up... Walk slowly... Is there a You controlling and making walking happen? Or is walking just happening? Is it possible movement and actions just happen... And then a thought arises that says "I am walking! I am doing it! Look at me!". CHECK.... Action, then claimant-thought.

Just walking (action) precipitated by a thought. No one doing walking.

3) listen to sounds... Is there a hearer? Or just sound? If there is a hearer... Is that just another bunch of sensations?

There is just sound. Sensation, vibration.

4) close eyes.... Watch thoughts come and go.... Is there a thinker of thoughts? Can YOU think and Choose a thought?

Cannot think and choose a thought... that's like a snake eating its tail. Thoughts just arise.

5) pick whatever activity,whenever, wherever.... Is there an agent/controller/doer? If so find it? Or is it just happening?
6) pick a few activities. Do them slowly. Is there an Experience-er experiencing? Or is that also just part of the experience, which is habitually conceptually divided by thought in to "me" + "what is experienced"?

Seeing that as soon as a thought arises, it is claimed out of habit, yes... which constructs as "me". The experiencer experiencing is a thought.

Thank you cosmiK.

Love and peace,
Savita

[cosmiK]

Savita,

Very clear.

Let me just clarify a few things because I am really annoying, and then you can tell me if you have any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separation/self.

Just walking (action) precipitated by a thought. No one doing walking.

Is it perhaps that movement/action/walking can occur without a thought that precipitates it?
does action require a thought?

Seeing that as soon as a thought arises, it is claimed out of habit, yes... which constructs as "me". The experiencer experiencing is a thought.

Who or what sees this?
Who or what claims this?

----

So Savita,
here & now...
there is just 'this',
and we can say that 'this' is Awareness,
thoughts of "You" may arise in 'this', yet they are just thoughts,
the appearance of 'Savita' and 'others' may arise in 'this', yet there are no such things,
buildings, flowers, feelings, bananas, sensations, planets, stars, space, tooth fairies, salt & pepper, time, steven tyler, science, ideas, music, cars, newspapers, roads, thoughts, oprah winfrey, mountains, and a host of such appearances may appear in 'this', yet there are no such things,
there is just 'this'
and there is never a 'You' that is apart from 'this',
just perhaps the appearance of what was once labelled 'You' which occurs in and of 'this'
there is only 'this'
this Experience,
this Expression,
this Appearance,
this Life,
just
this.

let me know if you want to investigate anything further, or if there any doubts that we need to cover,

with Love.

[Savita]

Thank you cosmiK :)

Is it perhaps that movement/action/walking can occur without a thought that precipitates it?
does action require a thought?

Movement/action can occur without a thought preceding it. Why does "walking" seem different somehow? Walking towards or away from something, there are thoughts about direction, speed, duration, purpose, etc. Does pole vaulting occur without a thought precipitating it? The idea that there is "walking towards or away from something" is another thought. There is an example of walking without thought - when ecstatic dancing, there are no thoughts of going anywhere, speed, duration, purpose, etc. Movement, including walking, just happens to the/my body. Looking at this more... noticed that in just moving about in the house... steps are taken (walking) that do not fall in line with the thought about "walking towards or away". This and ecstatic dance prove that thought is NOT required for walking to happen. cosmiK, you may want to push me further on this one...

Seeing that as soon as a thought arises, it is claimed out of habit, yes... which constructs as "me". The experiencer experiencing is a thought.

Who or what sees this? Who or what claims this?

It is another thought that sees and claims this.

Gratitude for your help, cosmiK.

Love & peace,
Savita

[cosmiK]

Savita,

Looking at this more... noticed that in just moving about in the house... steps are taken (walking) that do not fall in line with the thought about "walking towards or away". This and ecstatic dance prove that thought is NOT required for walking to happen. cosmiK, you may want to push me further on this one...

Well, what we are looking for mainly is that there is no You walking, that there is just walking, which may or may not be accompanied by thoughts about it. Thoughts correlate certain aspects of Experience which each other and speculate about causality and all sorts of things.

You can try this... get up... walk slowly.
Is there a YOU walking?
Is there an entity controlling walking?
Is thought required to change direction?

sometimes direction change is accompanied by thought, and sometimes it happens without a thought... a conclusion drawn by thought saying "a thought CAUSED walking" or "I am walking and going to change direction" seems like speculation, as there is a lot that happens, including walking, without an accompanying and relevant thought. As you have said, some steps are taken that do not correlate with what thoughts say about it at all. Thoughts simply label. Thoughts are just thoughts. I would not say that thought is needed for happening/walking, yet thought may accompany and correlate with many things, including walking.

The important question is there a doer/walker/controller? or just doing/walking happening?
Test this out and be 110% sure.

Also,
in 'this'... in Experience... is anything personal?
if so where is the claimant?

with Love.

[Savita]

cosmiK...

You can try this... get up... walk slowly.
Is there a YOU walking?
Is there an entity controlling walking?
Is thought required to change direction?

No, there is no "me" walking. There is awareness of walking, of foot stepping ahead of other foot, of shifting weight, of direction change... but there is no one/person/I/entity controlling that... being a walker.

The important question is there a doer/walker/controller? or just doing/walking happening?

Doing/walking happens without a doer/walker/controller.

Also, in 'this'... in Experience... is anything personal?
if so where is the claimant?

Nothing is personal. Life only appears to be personal because of the way form thinks. Perhaps form creates the illusion of separation, which creates/constructs a claimant. <-- Yes, that is an idea/thought. Don't profess to know how or why we are as we are. "This" is just what it is.

Love & Peace

[cosmiK]

Savita,

are there anymore doubts?
have you seen through the illusion of separation/self?

If No, and Yes to those questions, we can proceed to the final questions. If not, we can address those now.

Love.