Got stuck in tiger's mouth

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

There is no me to figure out how things are. Sometimes life appears as a sense of bliss, absolute, awareness, desire to meditate and get away from everything and everyone. Sometimes it appears as going with the train of thought, as if someone trying to understand, getting involved in daily life. Both are right, there is nothing wrong because it is what is happening.

Beautiful!

I guess what I'm trying to find is the balance between relative and absolute in a sense. keep using mind, thoughts, and labels, not dissociating and also not identifying with them and seeing them as useful tools, and narratives.

Knowing the emptiness of concepts doesn’t mean that concepts would not be used. The illusion of a mirage does not disappear once it is seen that it is an illusion, just its nature is known. Similarly, even though the illusion of a self and objects is seen, life will continue to happen, language will be used. It’s not that the self has been replaced with “no-self”, it is just that illusion of a self is seen. The story does not disappear, but it is seen as empty, not solid, not that serious, and, sometimes, even hilarious. It still appears that there is a “me,” but it is known to be a useful concept, not the truth. Then, “mind” can relax and come back to it’s natural state of being open, curious, playful, and free. It can notice spaciousness and oneness when it is no longer trying to fit and organize experience into a frame of fixed ideas.
There is so much to explore, and life will bring all that wants to be seen into the present moment. So whatever shows up is here to be looked at. Say yes to it all. See everything as an opportunity to deepen. Question everything, and little by little you will notice changes in everyday life: less judgment, more openness; less thinking, more appreciation; less story, more being; less structure, more flow. You will notice that some habitual thoughts no longer arise. The story changes in a way that allows more space for simply being. It becomes easier to step back and notice that there is something else going on besides the thought-story. This, which is happening right now, is not bound to a story; it just is. If a story arises, it is seen as part of what is, within it.
Here is a video that you might find helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w
Is there anything else that you want to look at?

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

Knowing the emptiness of concepts doesn’t mean that concepts would not be used. The illusion of a mirage does not disappear once it is seen that it is an illusion, just its nature is known. Similarly, even though the illusion of a self and objects is seen, life will continue to happen, language will be used. It’s not that the self has been replaced with “no-self”, it is just that illusion of a self is seen. The story does not disappear, but it is seen as empty, not solid, not that serious, and, sometimes, even hilarious. It still appears that there is a “me,” but it is known to be a useful concept, not the truth. Then, “mind” can relax and come back to it’s natural state of being open, curious, playful, and free. It can notice spaciousness and oneness when it is no longer trying to fit and organize experience into a frame of fixed ideas.
There is so much to explore, and life will bring all that wants to be seen into the present moment. So whatever shows up is here to be looked at. Say yes to it all. See everything as an opportunity to deepen. Question everything, and little by little you will notice changes in everyday life: less judgment, more openness; less thinking, more appreciation; less story, more being; less structure, more flow. You will notice that some habitual thoughts no longer arise. The story changes in a way that allows more space for simply being. It becomes easier to step back and notice that there is something else going on besides the thought-story. This, which is happening right now, is not bound to a story; it just is. If a story arises, it is seen as part of what is, within it.

This was wonderful, again answering my question before I even asked it.

Is there anything else that you want to look at?

Nothing is coming up at this moment.

Thank you

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh
We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?
Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?

I'm unsure what "final" means, but I'd love to participate.

Thanks,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh
Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is not and never was. It is just a thought a concept.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Separate self is a useful illusion formed probably during the early years of life. It's a concept that serves as a defense mechanism to protect the body. For a long time, I was unaware of the existence of this illusion, maybe because it was too close. Then, through various experiences and understandings, I became aware of it and saw through this illusion, initially perceiving it as a mistake and something that should not happen. But now, I no longer see it as a mistake; it just is, like everything else.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is a sense of ease. Nothing has really changed in terms of feelings, thoughts, or actions. Seeing, hearing, feeling, and thinking are happening as before. The change is in realizing that nothing is wrong with anything. There is nothing wrong with feeling entangled in thoughts or with feeling resistance to thoughts and emotions. Nothing even wrong with the thought of a separate entity "I".

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I stopped reading, hearing, and watching others' experiences. Instead, I looked at what was present without any expectation or idea of what it should be.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decisions happen naturally. For example, while writing these sentences, different thoughts come up by themselves. Some of them pass through, while others stay longer and make my fingers move to type these words.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention is just another thought or idea. For example, sticking up for some beliefs or just letting them go. Where does the intention come from? Where does it go? What effect does it have? Who knows!

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Just like intention, free will is another thought. There is no one to have free will, and there's nothing wrong with feeling like you have it. That's part of the play at this stage of life. It feels like I am free to write whatever I want, but that's just an illusion. As I mentioned above, thoughts are popping up and making my fingers move and type these words. Even this cause-and-effect chain of events is, in absolute reality, just an illusion—a story.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

There are choices, but they are picked by the flow of life, with just a thought narrating what I chose.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is a mental construct. It only has meaning when there is something or someone to exercise that control. But in reality, it’s just happening.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

who knows? "I" don't know

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Responsibility is another seemingly useful mental construct, part of the story—perhaps a collective story of humankind or this life here. There is no one here to be responsible for anything. Life is happening, and some part of it is framed as responsibility.

6) Anything to add?

No


Thank you,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

Great answers. They will be shared with other guides who may have questions if we've missed something, so stick around.
A question from me:

Decisions happen naturally. For example, while writing these sentences, different thoughts come up by themselves. Some of them pass through, while others stay longer and make my fingers move to type these words.

Can thoughts "move your fingers"? Do sensations (e.g. "moving fingers") understand thoughts so they "know what to do"? Are there decisions at all or just thoughts about what IS happening?

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

Can thoughts "move your fingers"? Do sensations (e.g. "moving fingers") understand thoughts so they "know what to do"? Are there decisions at all or just thoughts about what IS happening?

There is no cause and effect. It's a seemingly useful idea, a story that comes up to explain what is happening. Even when these laws are examined closely, numerous incidents show they don't always apply. You gave the example that even simple math, like 2 + 2 = 4, is only valid within certain domains and parameters. I'm no longer sure that adhering to these rules is useful. The more I look, the more I see they create expectations and narratives rather than allowing us to see what is actually happening without any story.


One thought I want to share with you is about our daily conversations over the past couple of weeks. The hints, questions, and pointings you exposed me to have been immensely useful. It's like building the muscle of looking directly, a reminder not to get lost in the story of thoughts. I'm not sure how to keep this interaction going. I was wondering if you have any recommendations based on your experience.


Thank you,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

Welcome home!

It appears that the Gateless Gate has been crossed, but as you know there is no Gate. It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy.

There have been no more questions for you, which means that you will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

One thought I want to share with you is about our daily conversations over the past couple of weeks. The hints, questions, and pointings you exposed me to have been immensely useful. It's like building the muscle of looking directly, a reminder not to get lost in the story of thoughts. I'm not sure how to keep this interaction going. I was wondering if you have any recommendations based on your experience.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

You can also consider being a guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference, which you will be able to access once your name has turned blue, join in any group discussions on FB, or make use of LU online support groups run by senior guides free of charge.

There are three of those, and they meet on Zoom – do contact the organisers for extra info, links and schedules:
1) Vince runs one on Wednesdays and weekends. Contact: vinceschubert@gmail.com
2) Luchana and Lubo run one on Thursdays. Contact: Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com
3) Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Contact: admin@ilonaciunaite.com

viewforum.php?f=49
You can also explore the ten Fetters:
Kevin Shinilac has instructions on his site https://www.simplytheseen.com/

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

Welcome home!

Such a good feeling :)

It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy.

It has been such a lovely experience to interact with you and be guided by you. Your patience, close attention to what is happening in each moment for me, and guidance from there made a huge difference.

I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

I'd love that. This has been very rewarding and joyful for me, and I'm very curious to see how it evolves. Having you as a sounding voice gives me the courage to walk this pathless path and embrace the unknown.


All the love,
Shafigh

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

It's been a week since our last conversation. Whatever started this whole seeking and exploration hasn't stopped; it has taken a big turn inward. I'm not looking for any answers from the outside. I know there's no real distinction between inside and outside, but it feels different, and I don't have a better word to describe its nature.

What is present right now, and what started yesterday, is the realization that nothing really matters. Last night, I experienced various states of being and emotions. It all began with the thought "Nothing matters," and specifically, "I don’t matter." It doesn’t matter what I feel, what I do, whether I feel good or bad, or what happens to me. I have no significance because I don’t exist, and even this illusion is not about me.

It was very disturbing, but after moving past the labels, images, and thoughts, it became a morphing sensation. It doesn't matter what I think, whether thoughts come or not, whether I sleep well or not, whether I have a good life or not, or whether I dream well or not. At some point, I wasn’t sure if it was a dream or a waking moment; the only thing I knew was that it didn’t matter. None of it matters.

Even right now, whatever I write here doesn’t matter—whether I understand or not, get the joke or not, become enlightened or not, find peace or not, seek or not. None of it matters. I don’t know what matters. Is there anything that matters? I don’t know why I am having this conversation, with whom, or why. It just happens, and it doesn’t matter what happens.

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh
It’s good to hear from you :)

It was very disturbing, but after moving past the labels, images, and thoughts, it became a morphing sensation. It doesn't matter what I think, whether thoughts come or not, whether I sleep well or not, whether I have a good life or not, or whether I dream well or not. At some point, I wasn’t sure if it was a dream or a waking moment; the only thing I knew was that it didn’t matter. None of it matters.

Is there anything that matters?

Yes, meaning is only in thoughts, but do you need meaning for things to happen? Do you need meaning to love your children, your friends and family? Is there such a thing as an universal meaning or is it unique to specific conditioning? You assume you “do” things because of so and so reasons (meaning), but in DE there is no “doing” at all – it’s just THIS, including the story why THIS IS happening (the meaning). Even a story about “no meaning” is still a story with meaning (empty). “You” make some conclusions about how this will affect “your future” out of that “no meaning”, which ironically is still a story about doership. SO, meaning for whom??? Meaning is only relevant in the context of a self. The self is a collection of stories, ideas, images, glued together in the attempt to give life meaning.
Meaning is in a way is "self organised". It’s quite normal for these thoughts (i.e. of meaninglessness) to appear – they are trying to make sense of this “new” reality. It takes time for the story to adapt to this new “understanding”.

When someone we know dies, it takes time for that to "sink in". It's not that we don't believe that the person has died. It is just they are still part of our lives - we open the wardrobe and their clothes are still there, we walk in the park and we remember when we used to do it together. It takes time to readjust our lives to living without them. That process of “sinking in” can be observed in many other situations – like being diagnosed with a life changing disease, losing a job that we had for a long time etc. Even though the change is sudden and quick, it can be perceived as a long process – it can feel as though something is still sinking in, or hasn’t yet sunk in.

The point applies equally to habitual patterns of thought and activity, which similarly reflect how our lives are organised. When the established patterns of a life are disturbed, thought cannot adapt to all of this in an instant, simply by revising all of our old beliefs. Much of the old organisation lingers on, in the guise of a world that we continue to experience and in habitual patterns of thought and activity that our surroundings continue to elicit. That very much applies to seeing the illusion of an “I” - it’s quite a sudden change with a relatively long process of adapting to this change. The recognition of no self is just the beginning of seeing life and “yourself” in a new light. It takes time to clean up all old beliefs and conditioning.

It was very disturbing, but after moving past the labels, images, and thoughts, it became a morphing sensation. It doesn't matter what I think, whether thoughts come or not, whether I sleep well or not, whether I have a good life or not, or whether I dream well or not. At some point, I wasn’t sure if it was a dream or a waking moment; the only thing I knew was that it didn’t matter. None of it matters.

Yes! Staying with the raw experience clears all the confusion and allows the story to adapt. You “come back to the market” in a new way – not that you “do” things differently, but you “approach” it with less judgment, more openness; less thinking, more appreciation; less story, more being; less structure, more flow. You will notice that some habitual thoughts no longer arise. The story changes in a way that allows more space for simply being.
So when these thoughts arise (for example: “What’s the point?”), bring the focus to what is present here now. Just THIS. And look again: what is here that wants THIS to be different (including meaning)?

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

It’s good to hear from you :)

you too :)

do you need meaning for things to happen? Do you need meaning to love your children, your friends and family?

No, meaning, as you said, is just another thought, a label that is part of the dance of life, cause and effect. There is no ultimate reality to it; it just appears as a thought sometimes.

Is there such a thing as an universal meaning or is it unique to specific conditioning?

No, there is no universal meaning. Anything humans have labeled as meaning or purpose has changed over time. It's an illusion that exists, and there's no denying that.

You assume you “do” things because of so and so reasons (meaning), but in DE there is no “doing” at all – it’s just THIS, including the story why THIS IS happening (the meaning). Even a story about “no meaning” is still a story with meaning (empty). “You” make some conclusions about how this will affect “your future” out of that “no meaning”, which ironically is still a story about doership. SO, meaning for whom???

Exactly, 100%

Meaning is in a way is "self organised". It’s quite normal for these thoughts (i.e. of meaninglessness) to appear – they are trying to make sense of this “new” reality. It takes time for the story to adapt to this new “understanding”.

Oh, this is great. I noticed the change, like there is a new theme to the thoughts, trying to develop a new story to adapt to this new 'understanding.' Normally, I would have been frustrated by this, but now I see there's nothing wrong with forming a new story.

what is here that wants THIS to be different (including meaning)?

Yes, I noticed that the pulling and pushing are fading. The intention for this to be different is becoming less. I could have guessed that the desire for "unpleasant" moments to be different would fade, but the surprising part is that even the desire for "pleasant" moments is becoming less. I find less and less of a center, a point of reference to judge moments or label them as like or dislike.


Thank you Rali, I don't want to take much of your time but I can't possibly describe how soothing these interactions with you are. It's like sitting beside a warm campfire under the stars, chatting with a close friend, and sharing stories and experiences. I appreciate you.



All the love,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

Yes, I noticed that the pulling and pushing are fading. The intention for this to be different is becoming less. I could have guessed that the desire for "unpleasant" moments to be different would fade, but the surprising part is that even the desire for "pleasant" moments is becoming less. I find less and less of a center, a point of reference to judge moments or label them as like or dislike.

That is wonderful! Enjoy :)

Thank you Rali, I don't want to take much of your time but I can't possibly describe how soothing these interactions with you are. It's like sitting beside a warm campfire under the stars, chatting with a close friend, and sharing stories and experiences. I appreciate you.

It’s really my pleasure to talk to you. Don’t worry and don’t hesitate to ask me anything! I might not see the message immediately but it’s not a problem at all :) I know this could be challenging (for whom?)

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

As I was exploring the concept of fetters, I came across the third one, which includes the idea that "Any action done with a purpose, for something, is a diversion." This struck me hard—like hitting a wall. It completely disrupted my usual way of thinking. Maybe because this idea isn't abstract; it's tangible and real in my day-to-day life. I'm not sure how to proceed from here.

Decision-making is still difficult for me, especially when I'm caught up in thoughts about right and wrong. This is when I feel the most friction and the most separate from life. I believe there's something underlying this struggle that I can't quite identify.

I was wondering if we could explore it together, to uncover what I cannot see clearly.