Cutting through the veil

[jrm72]

Hi Debora,

If this is all you get from this journey, is it enough?
No, it isn't. Nice is nice, yet it isn't a realization or insight.

I'm not saying there is or isn't anything else. But since you say nice isn't enough, what would be?

And while "you're thinking" of an answer remeber there is no you in control of the thoughts.


❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Good evening James,

But since you say nice isn't enough, what would be?

Something going further. Maybe something amazing or profound or intense, I guess. A lasting shift within me coming from the realization of no-self.
Reflecting upon what I've written, it seems that there is something 'I' wnat to achieve, which is a bit paradox, no?

[jrm72]

Evening Debora,

Something going further. Maybe something amazing or profound or intense.

There's nowhere to go, this is it. There's a wanting of something that is going to happen to you, that is getting in the way.

there is something 'I' wnat to achieve, which is a bit paradox, no?

Yes.
It's seeing that there's no paradox, is the paradox.



A personal story may make this clearer -


I was feeling overwhelmed, but seemed to have the wherewithal in the moment to notice it.
I noted that 'overwhelmed' is a label and so dropped it.
I then had the feelings of pressure in my head and a weight on my chest.
More label, so I dropped those.
I then had bodily sensations, more labels to drop.
It gets harder to describe from here because the labels were no longer words, but feelings about sensations.
Kept dropping everything.
This now becomes impossible to describe because obviously there were no labels.
The best I can do is to say there was an absence of everything and nothing else, no me, no time, nothing.

Peaceful is the nearest word I can come up with.

It seems to be different for everyone, from feeling like being hit with a ton of bricks, to, this is it, to, oh it happens weeks ago and I didn't realise.





❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Good Evening James,

I really enjoyed reading your personal story, thank you for sharing. So its all about direct experiencing, starting with awareness of the labels, relaxing, dropping them and opening to what is and thereby going deeper layer for layer, peeling off the labels.

reminds me a bit of an experience I once had during a vipassana retreat, where I went into the deep tiny details of sensations of some bodily pain and realized it was exactly the same as any other bodily sensation on the body which wasnt painful or strong, its all the same.

t's seeing that there's no paradox, is the paradox.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this. Or maybe I do, seeing something as a paradox is another label that can be dropped. And then there just is, what is.

There's nowhere to go, this is it.

Do you mean, that there is no place to reach, or to improve; everything is already here and just needs to be seen?
Or do you refer to the journey on this forum?

[jrm72]

Morning Debora,

its all about direct experiencing

Yes, but everybody's journey is different, so we will keep looking for what works for you.





You'll find paradoxes fall away.





This is it - refers to direct experience at the moment it is happening, there is nothing else.
Even our thoughts, memories, hopes etc are all only appearing in direct experience, right now.




In your direct experience- what is the difference between the seen, the seeing and the seer? (pick any or all of the other senses as well if you like)





Highlighting that the content of thought can be totally erroneous - how many senses do you have? (use your search engine of choice).


❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Good evening James,

what is the difference between the seen, the seeing and the seer?

my intellect wants to say something different, something smart. But I'll try to resist because then it will stay at the intellectual understanding.
The seen is something external, outside of me. Seeing the process, the act of taking in the seen and the seer refers to my conscious registering the seen.
There are sounds which are the things heard, hearing brings the sounds to the hearer, bridging the gap between external and internal.
There are textures/forms which are felt. I've been tracing a key on my keyboard for a long time, tuning in to the sensation, removing myself from the idea of what I think is happening. In the end, it is just sensation, the separation between the three (felt, feeling, feeler) wasnt so strongly there. Yet I feel like this is something I need to do for an even longer time again.

It seems like the sense of touch is easier for me to explore than with the other senses.

Highlighting that the content of thought can be totally erroneous - how many senses do you have?

Apparently, according to my search, the idea that we only have 5 senses is mistaken. Some say 9, 21 or even more, depending what we classify and how much down to detail we go (how many sense of temperature or senses of vision do we have).

[Elk1]

Good evening James,

what is the difference between the seen, the seeing and the seer?

my intellect wants to say something different, something smart. But I'll try to resist because then it will stay at the intellectual understanding.
The seen is something external, outside of me. Seeing the process, the act of taking in the seen and the seer refers to my conscious registering the seen.
There are sounds which are the things heard, hearing brings the sounds to the hearer, bridging the gap between external and internal.
There are textures/forms which are felt. I've been tracing a key on my keyboard for a long time, tuning in to the sensation, removing myself from the idea of what I think is happening. In the end, it is just sensation, the separation between the three (felt, feeling, feeler) wasnt so strongly there. Yet I feel like this is something I need to do for an even longer time again.

It seems like the sense of touch is easier for me to explore than with the other senses.

Highlighting that the content of thought can be totally erroneous - how many senses do you have?

Apparently, according to my search, the idea that we only have 5 senses is mistaken. Some say 9, 21 or even more, depending what we classify and how much down to detail we go (how many sense of temperature or senses of vision do we have).

[Elk1]

Sorry for the double reply, the page froze while submitting the post

[jrm72]

Good morning Debora,

Like when you looked for a doer and found nothing.

Look for the toucher, let me know what you find.


❤️🖖

[jrm72]

Hello Debora,

Found this and it seemed appropriate to post it here -


prior to awakening, what we anticipate “it” will be is influenced by what we want it to be, because there is a “me” that wants to be part of it.


❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Good evening James,
I was sitting and feeling touch for a while today.
Tuning into that experience eventually there was a moment when it was just a sensation. I could feel that whenever I moved my hand to touch something, to feel, my attention got heightened and I was grabbing o to the experience a sense of self this is what I am feeling now emerged. But no, I couldn't really find a toucher, something that feels the touch. And the feeling of 'this is me touching something and feeling it's got less strong and it was all sensation in the moment, just experience that's it

[jrm72]

Good Evening Debora,

just experience that's it

That's it, experience.

No you, no awareness, no touching toucher or touched.

Experience is everything.


Hopefully you see the irony in this statement and the following question -

How are you feeling?

[Elk1]

Good morning James,

How are you feeling?

I do see the irony. It assumes there's a me/you and feeling. That feeling is something that belongs to me in a sense.

To answer this: I'm well. Calmness.

[jrm72]

Hello Debora,

The words I, self, you etc are helpful in communicating, but that's about it.

I have two questions for you, the first is one I asked you back near the beginning of our journey. Wondered if your answer has changed at all -

Do you really know what you're going to type or does it just happen?
Yes, I do know what I will type, even though sometimes I realize while typing that I want to reformulate it and change what I am typing. I know vaguely what I am going to type, yet it is open to change in the moment, which I cannot foresee.

The second is -

How would you describe your self or I?





❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Good evening James,
I will answer tomorrow, today was busy and now I'm too tired.
Sorry about that