Seeking for Guidance

[Chenath]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have glimpses of having no inherent self. It is a thought, that has an illusion of veracity. But a thought nonetheless. It is the idea of having a bird's eye view when exploring a sensation in my foot for me. That subtle audio-visual imagery that forms when I say my name, or feel the sensations in my eyes or lips. It is in comparison.

What are you looking for at LU?
I don't know, I had a big desire to be awake, its a tiny bit dissolved but still very persistent. I am still very much EGO, a lot of the times. I have a massive urge to Prove my worth, and the progress I have made.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect some individuality in addressing my thoughts. Such that possibly I could have an easier time noticing them and where it comes from. I have different traumas, and different thoughts that could be "hindrances" to me spending time on the mat. What I noticed recently is an expectation from unconditional acceptance. "Hopefully, by unconditionally accepting this expectation of being awake by doing this meditation, I'll be a step closer to what I attained the other day, which is being awake" (paradoxical haha)

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have regulared some of Todd's guided meditations. I do borrow some vocabulary from him and I find his articulations relatable experiences to me.
I have meditated occassionally, mostly with an expectation to notice and dissolve emotions like anxiety, fear, shame.
I think I attained the state of Samadhi 2 years ago. I was able to just focus on my breath. I realized I was imagining a sound of my inbreath and outbreath everytime I was breathing (although there was no sound). I created a sound in my head, that did not get interrupted by the pauses in the breath, and entered into this state of samadhi. I did not however have any guidance, and so meditation became an act of identifying with not identifying.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[CarefulDog88]

Hi, my name is Paul, I would be very happy to embark on this exploration with you, provided we both agree it is sensible. Please carefully consider the following points, which blend universal LU elements with specific guidance:.

1. I am not a Teacher or a Guru or even a Guide, and all I do is help you formulate the questions to ask, Ultimately you do the work and the level of earnestness will determine the Truth revealed.????
2. Throughout this process, your focus should be solely on your direct experience (DE). We will avoid delving into theories, beliefs, or alternative methods, including those from non-duality. Relying on external beliefs is not the aim. I will pose questions, and your responses should stem directly from your personal experiences.
3. The key elements driving this process are your desire to discover the truth and your willingness to delve deeply into the questions. Wholehearted engagement in the experiments and exercises I present is crucial. Your commitment to reporting experiences here with complete honesty is essential. If you are prepared for this level of engagement, the process will naturally unfold as it should.
4. To ensure focus and productivity in this process, both of us commit to responding on this thread daily. In cases of exceptional circumstances preventing a response, we agree to communicate this in advance on the thread, either the day before or on the day. If this rhythm doesn't align with your lifestyle, style, or preferences, please inform me, and alternative arrangements can be made with another guide.
Please read the following documents from LU and make sure you are on board with their content:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2
And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Learn how to use the Quote Function here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ
Please answer questions individually, as this will assist us in having a clear dialogue.
Are you ready for this?
What shall I call you?
ALSO:
1. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the bottom left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

2. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers.

[Chenath]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your response. I am sorry it has taken me so long to reply. I did not use this forum after my first post. In case you were still interested in guiding me,

You may call me Chenath and yes! I am ready for this!

Please answer questions individually, as this will assist us in having a clear dialogue.

I'll keep that in mind, and I have also read through the points you mentioned and I am completely onboard! Also I can commit to responding to this thread daily, and incase of an exceptional circumstance, I'll make sure to communicate in advance.

That's all!

Much love
Chenath.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Chenath,
Happy to guide you.

“there is no separate self in any shape or form and there never was" - what reactions come up
as you read that sentence?
Just rant about it without censoring. Give particular attention to thoughts coming up that are
emotionally charged, even if you think they might be irrational. Also don't miss writing any strong
beliefs about this that come up. Just write without censoring or limiting.
2) What are your expectations for what will be different in life after first awakening, after seeing
through the separate self? Describe all of them as thoroughly as possible.
3) Are you willing to proceed knowing it might be like that for you, and to let go of any
expectations to experience relief and enjoyment from this in the near future? (you might well do,
but you also might not). Are you willing to staying lovingly focused on what is true and real, no
matter how it feels?


Let’s start by doing some exercises that will help us communicate and understand what is meant when we talk about Direct Experience DE.

Direct Experiencing (DE)
So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through
what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions,
perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a
shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.
So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6
aspects of experiencing. It is PURE
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on DE.
Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our
heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience – Direct Experiencing

f I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways
to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.
What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?
Can you be 100% sure?
When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an
answer rather than LOOKING directly.
Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to
the core of this exploration so much faster.
One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling
Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start
As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)
What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

[Chenath]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your response,

“there is no separate self in any shape or form and there never was" - what reactions come up
as you read that sentence?

Nothing comes up, thoughts of nothing coming up, comes up. Thoughts of, "I am in the body now, and there is grasping or trying to understand happening right now" comes up. Emotionally, I don't feel any intense sensation from this statement.

2) What are your expectations for what will be different in life after first awakening, after seeing
through the separate self? Describe all of them as thoroughly as possible.

I have thoughts of crossing the gate, come up. Although I don't have a recollection of a particular time this so-called event happened, I think now that my thoughts including the thought of a thinker are just stories. I had no expectations initially, or maybe there were a lot, but I am not sure exactly. Perhaps I have expectations now with dealing with habits and conditioning (fetter 3). Challenging my existing habit patterns bring up a lot of contraction, and mostly challenging the solutions to my so-called problems bring up a lot more too! I have been following the fetter model for 2 months since that first awakening.

3) Are you willing to proceed knowing it might be like that for you, and to let go of any
expectations to experience relief and enjoyment from this in the near future? (you might well do,
but you also might not). Are you willing to staying lovingly focused on what is true and real, no
matter how it feels?

Yes!

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

Color? I am seeing color.

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

Sound.

Something comes up, Something emotionally charged. "Am I doing this wrong?" is a thought that came up?

It's maybe from when I said "Color? I am seeing color." Maybe not? There is a contraction in the body right now.

As mentioned in this blog: https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

I tried forming a sentence with the labels, and it felt contracting!

Much love,
Chenath

[Chenath]

One more thing about expectations, I also think I have a lot of shadow work to do with relation to other people. How I act around other people, feeling judged by other people, and my starting point, and bubble of reality. I experienced a lot of so called anxiety, intense sensation in the abdomen when I first went to zoom meetings. So that would be an expectation, To dig something up thats nicely hidden away by diversions.

[Chenath]

Please look down at your feet right now. Very attentively. And ask yourself the question. Can you find a “me” or an “I” down there in those feet? Do those feet constitute me?. Do it as slowly and as attentively as you can. Do you live there?.



And now travel up. To the knees. Look at yourself from the knees down to the toenail. With the same question. Is there a “me” to be found down there. Is this you?



And now travel. Up to your waist. We travel up to the neck now, but you'll need to be more thorough and examine that body between the neck and the waist front and back. Are you there?



Outside and inside look right down into the inside. And ask yourself. Is this me?



And then from the neck right up to the topmost hair of the head. And be sure to LOOK and FEEL around inside the head and notice the brain. The ears and the throat. Look right down. Through the throat. Can you find yourself there?



Because now you've encompassed the body. Is this you? Can you find yourself anywhere? Anywhere at all? In all that you have examined inside or outside?



Now look behind the eyes, because sometimes we think that we are behind the eyes looking out. This is where you said the watching was happening. Is there actually a watcher there? Can you be 100% sure that you can find yourself even there?



And eventually if you do this faithfully IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL - not because I say so but because if this has been faithfully done, you have actually come to the conclusion yourself – to prove that you are your body or any specific part of it?

I did this practice once, I saw the diversions come up, but oh my fucking god it was too much. It was an overwhelming fear, so icky. I was trying to investigate my eyes, and feel into the sensations and remove the pictures that form of the eye in the mind, and just stay with the sensation. Again mind tries to make a story, maybe I am just looking for something so intensely and thats why I feel so intensely, or maybe this is the so called fear of death? I don't know, besides the point. I have to keep trying a few more times. Very destabilizing though. So icky.

[Chenath]

Writing on here now, and also having some biscuits sort diverted me from that sensation.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Chenath,

Thoughts of, "I am in the body now, and there is grasping or trying to understand happening right now" comes up.

Nothing to understand about happening, it is what is happening.

Any acknowledgement of a sensation including sight and sound is a thought, what is happening is exactly that, you don't have to go to thought to label a sensation, the sensation is happening. In the body being felt, relax into the body to get your DE.

Writing on here now, and also having some biscuits sort diverted me from that sensation.

What Is wrong with a sensation that requires you to be diverted away?

I did this practice once, I saw the diversions come up, but oh my fucking god it was too much. It was an overwhelming fear, so icky. I was trying to investigate my eyes, and feel into the sensations and remove the pictures that form of the eye in the mind, and just stay with the sensation. Again mind tries to make a story, maybe I am just looking for something so intensely and thats why I feel so intensely, or maybe this is the so called fear of death? I don't know, besides the point. I have to keep trying a few more times. Very destabilizing though. So icky.

Slow down, no need for all of this. This is mostly just thought and will only be your gate, that keeps you locked in.
Set this exercise and all other exercises aside until after this dialogue, also stop watching and reading any other modalities and teachers/gurus. It will just be confusing, you can go back to it after if you feel the impulse to do so.

One more thing about expectations, I also think I have a lot of shadow work to do with relation to other people. How I act around other people, feeling judged by other people, and my starting point, and bubble of reality. I experienced a lot of so called anxiety, intense sensation in the abdomen when I first went to zoom meetings. So that would be an expectation, To dig something up thats nicely hidden away by diversions.

Lets start fresh and put these beliefs aside, set them down and leave them aside, if they are still there when you finish this dialogue you can pick them back up and carry them around with you, if you like.

I have thoughts of crossing the gate, come up. Although I don't have a recollection of a particular time this so-called event happened, I think now that my thoughts including the thought of a thinker are just stories. I had no expectations initially, or maybe there were a lot, but I am not sure exactly. Perhaps I have expectations now with dealing with habits and conditioning (fetter 3). Challenging my existing habit patterns bring up a lot of contraction, and mostly challenging the solutions to my so-called problems bring up a lot more too! I have been following the fetter model for 2 months since that first awakening.

There is no Gate.
This is not a platform for fetters and we wont be referencing fetters, set aside these practices/models, until after please.

Thought and Direct Experience are the main areas we will focus on and until we LOOK into these, we don't see anyhting with truth or clarity.

Don't believe anything I say or include in our dialogue, LOOK and find the truth for yourself.
Don't believe anything that arises in thought, LOOK and see the truth in your DE (ask: is this true? and then go to DE in the body)

2) Finding the Gap Between Thoughts
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought comes in.

Another simple way is to ask what will my next thought be? and what. There will be a gap of silence for a few seconds LOOK in this silence.

This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and Observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come.
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go, report what comes up please.

[Chenath]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your reply, just so that you know I'll take some time with the exercise, give me a day at best.

Any acknowledgement of a sensation including sight and sound is a thought, what is happening is exactly that, you don't have to go to thought to label a sensation, the sensation is happening. In the body being felt, relax into the body to get your DE.

Gotcha

What Is wrong with a sensation that requires you to be diverted away?

Nothing at all.

Slow down, no need for all of this. This is mostly just thought and will only be your gate, that keeps you locked in.
Set this exercise and all other exercises aside until after this dialogue, also stop watching and reading any other modalities and teachers/gurus. It will just be confusing, you can go back to it after if you feel the impulse to do so.

Yea, fine by me.

Lets start fresh and put these beliefs aside, set them down and leave them aside, if they are still there when you finish this dialogue you can pick them back up and carry them around with you, if you like.

Yea, thats fine with me.

There is no Gate.
This is not a platform for fetters and we wont be referencing fetters, set aside these practices/models, until after please.

Thought and Direct Experience are the main areas we will focus on and until we LOOK into these, we don't see anyhting with truth or clarity.

Don't believe anything I say or include in our dialogue, LOOK and find the truth for yourself.
Don't believe anything that arises in thought, LOOK and see the truth in your DE (ask: is this true? and then go to DE in the body)

Let me know how you go, report what comes up please.

I'll try the exercise and get back to you. It may take me a day at best. Letting you know in advance!



Much love,
Chenath

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Chenath,
how did you go with your exercise?

[Chenath]

Hi Paul,

The exercise didn't go for much long today. I couldn't stay in silence for long. I'll try again today and report to you.

[Chenath]

I tried this particular exercise, but I don't seem to be getting anywhere for now. I am being hyper vigilant. I am constantly comparing the experience I am having in the exercise to an expectation maybe. But I haven't sat down in silence long enough. I usually find typing down all my thoughts as they come, super fast to be helpful. Also I have been rather restrictive with watching anything spiritual and also I think now that I maybe distracting myself from this exercise. These are the thoughts that came to my mind on this moments I maybe creating something out of nothing but that's all I have for something to report back as. I don't have a direct knowing of anything from this exercise. I just have thoughts. Again thoughts aside perhaps I should try again in the morning.

Much love

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Chenath,
It's OK, don't put to much expectation on something to happen.

Try this please,
1. Sit for a few minutes in a quite place, close the eyes
2. Take e few deep breaths through the nose.
3. Relax the shoulders and your stomach and push the stomach muscle out to expand it
4. Now ask yourself "what is the next thought I'm going to have"
5. Immediately after that question look what comes up. There will be nothing to fill that space, it will be empty until the next thought fills the space.
6. Repeat the question and each time, look see if that space between thoughts is empty for 1 second or 3 seconds or 5 seconds, the longer the better, repeat this over and over until this space of nothing is seen.
This is the GAP between thoughts.
Report back please.

[Chenath]

Hi Paul,


I did the practice as you said. Something that came up for me is sensations, a lot of 'uncomfortable' sensations in different places of the body. I kept discontinuing any attempt of sitting after these sensations. That is all I have to report for now Paul. I could give you thoughts about the sensations. They are gory, uncomfortable, and they bring up imagery gory thoughts. To draw parallels, it is like a folk screeching. They also bring up sensation in the heart and throat. That is what my body keeps bring into my attention constantly, is what I just thought.

Love
Chenath