Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:45 am

Hi Nicola,
s-p-a-c-e wrote:
Really go after that sense of a doer/see-er/be-er. :)

Look at it, sense it, feel it....!!!!

And then, see that the look-er, sense-er, feel-er, doesn't exist.
Woke "too" early this morning, resisted getting up, "tried" to get back to sleep. Felt tension building in body. Accepted awake state. Got up and went for walk. Looking for doer/see-er/be-er/thinker. All I can find is awareness. Awareness of thoughts, of sensations, of feelings, of looking through these eyes, of walking with these legs, of wind on these cheeks.

Mind clearing. Thoughts came up - the kinds of thoughts I might have toyed with endlessly in the past - thoughts about yesterday's reading out of my writing in the workshops, of others' responses. Thoughts that have had the habit in the past of circulating around how 'I' appear to the outside world, what others think of 'me'. Awareness sees these thoughts, sees that there is no 'me' as any entity with continuity, and the thoughts are released. Melt away. Then there is awareness again of the grass, the trees, the sky, the sound of birds. Awareness of tiredness around the eyes, a kind of heavy-liddedness. Acceptance of this.

Awareness sees also how thoughts of 'I'/'me' tend to separate 'me' from the present, from beingness. Then there is the appearance of 'me' moving through time, with a past, with a future, with choices, with regrets. Not so much regret these days those - that one has been seen through.

Blessings.
Yes.

What more can be said.

Perhaps tomorrow.

Going to sleep now. :)

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby unravelme » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:50 am

Yes.

What more can be said.

Perhaps tomorrow.

Going to sleep now. :)

Best wishes,
John
Yes - not much to say. Awareness that there is no 'I' that can ever go through the gate. Yet still there are thoughts that suggest there is a movement of self through time - not so much an evolution now as a devolution - a true unravelling. Awareness that there is nothing to "do" except be aware. In awareness, thoughts are seen. Some still identified with, so still some chattering. Others recognised as arising out of the concept of a separate 'me' - these fall away. The more falling away, the easier to see what is still appearing as 'me'.

So trusting this process, this unravelling, this seeing and falling away. The one who wants to get somewhere is the one who separates. So any attempt by that self to get or to be anywhere other than Now, is a separation from awareness, from being. Awareness sees - 'Me' identifies. Identification with a thought leads to a story - then 'I' am distracted from now and being. Then the jungle starts to grow tall and tangled again.

'I' could build a new self from here - the thought has occurred - a better self. But that would mean increasing identification with thought, decreasing awareness; a new jungle to get lost in. It's dangerous to identify with thought or experience. It's easy to get lost again. At times I can see how easy it would be.

And of course, I remember, that's what happened before. I identified with a moment, a state, some fears and some sense of doership...and overnight the darkness had descended again. 17 more years lost in the darkness of identification with a 'me' that thought it had to improve itself or break free.

But that's a story too.

Stories are so seductive!

Now back to this writing...strangely it's easier to write stories past experiences now that I understand that's all they are. That the stories are not me or mine, yet somehow flow through this awareness, as if with an energy or purpose of their own. And of course, there is still some sense of me tangled up with them - some things that are easier to show than others - but luckily I have a writing teacher who understands that and helps me part the veils of self-deception. As much as possible to show what is or what was, without a controlling or manipulative narrator who tries to angle the story or the characters or the reader's perception of them in a certain direction.

Perhaps the most lucid writing arises when the narrator is simply the witness of life unfolding, without an opinion, without an agenda. A wonderful metaphor or practice for living life with compassionate objectivity: seeing the big picture, the connectedness of all; showing the details with passionate precision. "God is in the details." (Ludwig Mies van der Rohe).

Well, I guess there was a fair bit to say after all. ;-)
***
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. - John 15, King James Bible

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby unravelme » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:04 am

Something's hooking me now. Phew! Going to try sleeping first and see if that helps. Very tired. But also interesting to see how quickly the fog of thought descends when something doesn't want to be seen.
***
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. - John 15, King James Bible

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:24 am

Hi Nicola,
Yes.

What more can be said.

Perhaps tomorrow.

Going to sleep now. :)

Best wishes,
John
Yes - not much to say. Awareness that there is no 'I' that can ever go through the gate. Yet still there are thoughts that suggest there is a movement of self through time - not so much an evolution now as a devolution - a true unravelling. Awareness that there is nothing to "do" except be aware. In awareness, thoughts are seen. Some still identified with, so still some chattering. Others recognised as arising out of the concept of a separate 'me' - these fall away. The more falling away, the easier to see what is still appearing as 'me'.

So trusting this process, this unravelling, this seeing and falling away. The one who wants to get somewhere is the one who separates. So any attempt by that self to get or to be anywhere other than Now, is a separation from awareness, from being. Awareness sees - 'Me' identifies. Identification with a thought leads to a story - then 'I' am distracted from now and being. Then the jungle starts to grow tall and tangled again.

'I' could build a new self from here - the thought has occurred - a better self. But that would mean increasing identification with thought, decreasing awareness; a new jungle to get lost in. It's dangerous to identify with thought or experience. It's easy to get lost again. At times I can see how easy it would be.

And of course, I remember, that's what happened before. I identified with a moment, a state, some fears and some sense of doership...and overnight the darkness had descended again. 17 more years lost in the darkness of identification with a 'me' that thought it had to improve itself or break free.

But that's a story too.

Stories are so seductive!

Now back to this writing...strangely it's easier to write stories past experiences now that I understand that's all they are. That the stories are not me or mine, yet somehow flow through this awareness, as if with an energy or purpose of their own. And of course, there is still some sense of me tangled up with them - some things that are easier to show than others - but luckily I have a writing teacher who understands that and helps me part the veils of self-deception. As much as possible to show what is or what was, without a controlling or manipulative narrator who tries to angle the story or the characters or the reader's perception of them in a certain direction.

Perhaps the most lucid writing arises when the narrator is simply the witness of life unfolding, without an opinion, without an agenda. A wonderful metaphor or practice for living life with compassionate objectivity: seeing the big picture, the connectedness of all; showing the details with passionate precision. "God is in the details." (Ludwig Mies van der Rohe).

Well, I guess there was a fair bit to say after all. ;-)
I know what you mean. :) There is a sense of "Oh, so this is how the 'I' was made - so what happens if I do this?"

It is seen how deftly simple the process is and, having seen through it, how it is only a narrowing of life.

Yes, awareness - that most mysterious of what? Things? Aspects? Seems outside the category of categories?

In awareness, nothing matters because everything is equal and because of that, everything matters too.

Notice what you notice...

Speak soon,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby unravelme » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:46 pm

I know what you mean. :) There is a sense of "Oh, so this is how the 'I' was made - so what happens if I do this?"

It is seen how deftly simple the process is and, having seen through it, how it is only a narrowing of life.

Yes, awareness - that most mysterious of what? Things? Aspects? Seems outside the category of categories?

In awareness, nothing matters because everything is equal and because of that, everything matters too.

Notice what you notice...

Speak soon,
John
Thank you, John, for your understanding. That's exactly it! Yes!

"This is how I was made. This is how I could build a new me."

Tempting....to a point....except that beingness and peace quickly recede in that narrowness.

Listened to Mooji being interviewed tonight. Very helpful - his distinction between the 'I am' consciousness which is like that first offshoot of Pure Consciousness. That's what's woken up in me - or I should say, woken up here. It's not that the other (the me) has gone away - it's still playing its games. It's just that the Being or Witness is stronger now. There is more identification with that neutral peaceful witnessing beingness (that indescribable ahhhh that is around and within me). And it's not even identification (which must always be with the past). It's very Now. So it's a knowing and a being and a seeing that's all wrapped up together somehow.

I think what I've been looking for is Pure Consciousness - the merging of the 'I am' into the 'All' - because of the memory recorded in my brain of something I glimpsed (or rather, melted into) all those years ago. But of course the one who's been reaching for it had nothing to do with finding it.

All I can do is rest in this beingness - keep returning to it, when I feel myself become unconscious and separated - returning to Now and Being.

Like that thing I got tangled up in this afternoon - wanting to argue with it, to defend myself, to analyse, to explain, to understand - and the more I tried, the more confused I became, and the more the peace I've been resting in (underneath all my other activities) receded.

So then, I simply said no. But that's not it either. It feels like denial. But it's more like turning my face back to the sun.

Rest. Peace. Expansion. Wholeness. Silence.

Then there wasn't a problem anymore.

Thank you, thank you, thank you....for being there. For listening to me. For witnessing this process. For your guidance. It helps so much to stay true, to keep turning back to the sun and letting the shadows melt away.

God bless you! God bless you all!
***
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. - John 15, King James Bible

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:16 pm

Hi Nicola,
I know what you mean. :) There is a sense of "Oh, so this is how the 'I' was made - so what happens if I do this?"

It is seen how deftly simple the process is and, having seen through it, how it is only a narrowing of life.

Yes, awareness - that most mysterious of what? Things? Aspects? Seems outside the category of categories?

In awareness, nothing matters because everything is equal and because of that, everything matters too.

Notice what you notice...

Speak soon,
John
Thank you, John, for your understanding. That's exactly it! Yes!

"This is how I was made. This is how I could build a new me."

Tempting....to a point....except that beingness and peace quickly recede in that narrowness.

Listened to Mooji being interviewed tonight. Very helpful - his distinction between the 'I am' consciousness which is like that first offshoot of Pure Consciousness. That's what's woken up in me - or I should say, woken up here. It's not that the other (the me) has gone away - it's still playing its games. It's just that the Being or Witness is stronger now. There is more identification with that neutral peaceful witnessing beingness (that indescribable ahhhh that is around and within me). And it's not even identification (which must always be with the past). It's very Now. So it's a knowing and a being and a seeing that's all wrapped up together somehow.

I think what I've been looking for is Pure Consciousness - the merging of the 'I am' into the 'All' - because of the memory recorded in my brain of something I glimpsed (or rather, melted into) all those years ago. But of course the one who's been reaching for it had nothing to do with finding it.

All I can do is rest in this beingness - keep returning to it, when I feel myself become unconscious and separated - returning to Now and Being.

Like that thing I got tangled up in this afternoon - wanting to argue with it, to defend myself, to analyse, to explain, to understand - and the more I tried, the more confused I became, and the more the peace I've been resting in (underneath all my other activities) receded.

So then, I simply said no. But that's not it either. It feels like denial. But it's more like turning my face back to the sun.

Rest. Peace. Expansion. Wholeness. Silence.

Then there wasn't a problem anymore.

Thank you, thank you, thank you....for being there. For listening to me. For witnessing this process. For your guidance. It helps so much to stay true, to keep turning back to the sun and letting the shadows melt away.

God bless you! God bless you all!
All I can do is rest in this beingness - keep returning to it, when I feel myself become unconscious and separated - returning to Now and Being.

Yes, it's the dance of life and death. And the music plays on.

As you mentioned, the IDEA of finding some pure state, absolute this or that, is how we keep ourselves from seeing the beauty in light and dark, in identification and non-identification.

Seeing through that idea - in fact, it gives me the giggles just writing this. LOL :D - is so funny, because it all just drops and melts away - the struggle, the idea, the goal - yeah right, hehe :)

With warmest wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby unravelme » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:20 pm

Smiling w-i-d-e-l-y! Thank you.

Good night.
***
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. - John 15, King James Bible

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:04 pm

Hi Nicola,
Smiling w-i-d-e-l-y! Thank you.

Good night.
It's been a joy to read your posts. :)

Would you say that the separate self running the show has now been seen through fully and completely?

Warm wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby unravelme » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:51 am

It's been a joy to read your posts. :)
Thank you.
Would you say that the separate self running the show has now been seen through fully and completely?
No, I wouldn't say that yet. Perhaps largely - but there are still many subtle (and not so subtle) layers of self at work. Woke this morning in a tangle of thoughts. One thought pretending to be Being, as remembered from yesterday. Another thought feeling separate from that, wanting to merge with that memory of Beingness. Resistance to tiredness - I did not sleep so well last night.

Quieter now within, but watchful.

Listening to Mooji or Eckhart Tolle or Katie Davis, I am brought home. Writing here and reading your posts pulls me into deeper presence. But away from this ,the dance of self is still strong and seductive.

Perhaps I have seen what you are teaching in this forum...but would like it to settle into a deeper knowing/certainty before answering your final questions.

Warmly,

Nicola
***
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. - John 15, King James Bible

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby unravelme » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:53 pm

Dear John,

I think I'm ready to answer those questions now and move into LU's aftercare program. Seeing clearer and clearer. There are moments of forgetting - until the thoughts are seen, or the resistance to whatever is is seen and released.

Deepening sense of inner peace and contentment, of finding again what has always been here, recognising true being - and its neutrality, and how it encompasses all experience.

Even my tiredness and tangledness this morning - was able to surrender to both of those. Then quietness again. It's not dramatic like my earlier experience...but perhaps because I've been moving gradually into this awareness over the last five years - an unravelling of so many painful stories with which I identified. An emptying out of self.

So, thank you. Tomorrow I will answer your questions on my way home...unless I don't. We will see what happens tomorrow! ;-) Plans held more lightly these days.

Warmly,

Nicola
***
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. - John 15, King James Bible

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:31 pm

Hi Nicola,
Dear John,

I think I'm ready to answer those questions now and move into LU's aftercare program. Seeing clearer and clearer. There are moments of forgetting - until the thoughts are seen, or the resistance to whatever is is seen and released.

Deepening sense of inner peace and contentment, of finding again what has always been here, recognising true being - and its neutrality, and how it encompasses all experience.

Even my tiredness and tangledness this morning - was able to surrender to both of those. Then quietness again. It's not dramatic like my earlier experience...but perhaps because I've been moving gradually into this awareness over the last five years - an unravelling of so many painful stories with which I identified. An emptying out of self.

So, thank you. Tomorrow I will answer your questions on my way home...unless I don't. We will see what happens tomorrow! ;-) Plans held more lightly these days.

Warmly,

Nicola
That's lovely to hear!

Here are the questions - they can really support clarity, so enjoy responding with what comes up. :)

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.


3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.


4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.


5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

With warmest wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby unravelme » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:34 am

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a me in any shape or form? No, there is only Being - life manifesting through this form, this consciousness, this particular set of conditioned beliefs/interpretations/habitual ways of relating to the world. There never has been a 'me'. Only thoughts of 'me' and 'I'. Only memories recorded in this brain/body and stories built out of those memories and projected forwards into an imaginary future. 

What sees all of this, what recognises it, is awareness. And awareness is not separate from anything or anyone. It is neutral, all-encompassing and Now. There is no separate self. There never has been. Just a dance of shadows, of reflections. The mistake made is to confuse what sees with what is reflected. To think that thoughts are controlled or chosen by some central and distinct self - the fat controller in the engine room. ;-)  But there is no controller. No matter how I look, I cannot find one - because the one who thinks she is "I" or "me" looking, is just another thought flowing through this mind-body awareness.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
To the best of my understanding and experience, and acknowledging that there may be deeper layers of truth to discover about this, the concept of self begins in childhood. Others say around age 2 or 3. I can't remember my psychology well enough to state this as a fact, nor remember when my own consciousness - or rather this consciouness became identified with a 'me'. I've watched these little selves develop in my children...as they gradually individuate from their mother, as they experience the pain of separation, or physical pain when their bodies are hurt, as they hear adults talking about them with labels, including names and descriptions... Surrounded by unconscious adults who also believe they are separate selves, who resist life, judge it, judge each other, judge their children and try to control and shape their children, to cultivate certain personality traits and to eliminate others. 

Unfortunately the negative traits that are battled with become as strong as the positive traits that are praised and nurtured. And as the child grows older he or she becomes more and more  identified with habitual ways of thinking and behaving. Depending on the child, there may be very painful feelings of separation and loss early in life - these feelings of loss often associated with parents or parental figures. And so the search for love/belonging/connectedness is turned outwards. Later this may become the search for God. Or success and adulation from one's friends. Or fame. Or romance. Desperately we seek some half-forgotten and half-remembered state of wholeness and completion, not understanding that the more we  seek, the further we travel from its source - which is within. The individual mind-body consciousness accumulates memories and experiences and having confused itself with these early in life, the weight of self often becomes greater as life progresses and one is more and more disconnected from the Now.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
It feels like remembering something I've always known, but forgot long ago, or only understood intellectually. It feels like turning inwards for the love/belonging/connectedness I've always sought. It feels like laughing at the shadow play I confused for myself and ’the other’ and turning my face back to the sun. It feels like being flooded with love and kindness, an inner and an outer melting away of resistance. It feels like accepting, accepting and accepting, moment after moment. And when there is not acceptance, knowing it is only a thought. Seeing the pointlessness of arguing with that thought or trying to change it, because all the arguments are just other thoughts, thoughts divided against each other, thoughts divided from now. And as soon as there is recognition of the thoughts, then there is sinking back into the being - not some remembered or idealised state, but a direct experience of whatever is happening now. It might be fear. And even that is a label. When you take away the label, ther is just energy, moving through. And it's amazing how quickly it passes when you don't label it or make a story out of it.

Here's a funny illustration. Last night I heard a tapping sound, woke up and went out of my room, as I came back in I saw the shape of someone's head outside the window. Thought put this image together with the sound of the tapping and suddenly I had a story about someone trying to get in. Now alongside this thinking there was energy in the body - a sudden alertness which built into heart thumping and adrenalin surging as the story developed. And then suddenly I realised the light from my open doorway was casting shadows - my shadow on the blind, and it was only the wind tapping the blind on the window frame that had made the noise. Seeing the thoughts, which wanted to connect with other stories and memories of intruders or would-be-intruders, I was able to let them go, to be present with the energy moving through my body. This passed quickly and I fell back to sleep.

How else does it feel? Specific differences. Whole body is much more relaxed. Chronic pain and tightness in my lower abdomen is diminishing. Habit of worrying (a huge one for me in the past)  seems to have gone out the window. Is seen that worry is a projection of self into the future, which is impossible and pointless - is really just thought telling itself stories now about what might or might not happen. This thinking creates the illusion of a me that is separate. An easy solution is simply to become present again. This feels like awareness or Being waking up to itself - waking up from a bad dream.

Overall, it feels like a deep knowing that I am not my thoughts. That I am this beingness, this unnameable energy/presence/awareness. And there are memories recorded in this consciousness of all boundaries melting away altogether, of being utterly at one with the world. Of knowing without a doubt that there is no separate self, only life manifesting, the invisible taking refuge in the visible. A shadow-play, a game, in which all of life takes part.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it. 
I would ask them to sit quietly, probably somewhere in nature, to look around them, to see what they see, feel, hear, smell - and then to remove any labels that come up. And to see what happens when the tree is seen without the label. There's no trick to this, as I once imagined. There's nothing thought can do with this. It's really about connecting with your beingness. Feel the tree in your whole being. As the tree moves, can you feel that movement inside you. Or the shape of the tree, how do you respond to this inwardly. Not how would you describe it with words or stories, but how does it make you feel.

Now for some, this exercise might be difficult,as it was for me when I was younger and had a teacher who used the direct pointing method, because I was so totally identified with my thoughts.  But always there is a chink in the armour - some doorway or window through which an awareness of being can be glimpsed. Perhaps by listening to music, by drawing”, by smelling, or by being held by a loved one.

So then I would say, once they have felt that beingness through observation of the outside world, to turn the same sensitive looking inwards. It's definitely NOT an intellectual looking. And it may be helpful to meditate for a short while, to observe one's thoughts arising and falling, or passing by like clouds in the sky, and then to see what is there between the thoughts and after the thoughts. To look at this awareness without labelling it, and then to look for the 'I' or 'me' that chooses what to see, what to feel, what to hear. To discover for oneself if there is any chooser. No one else can really explain this - and it doesn't help if they do. You have to see it for yourself. To observe very closely the movement of thought - and how identification with these thoughts creates the illusion of self. Self choosing. Self thinking. Self in conflict with self. Self remembering. And often the memories are inconsistent, as are the beliefs.

It's important also to watch closely the interaction between thought and emotions. This is something I'm still investigating, but it seems to me the thoughts come first before the emotions we recognise as anger, jealousy, love etc. Before thoughts there are feelings and a movement of energy through the body - but these are much more subtle and ephemeral than they become after thought has labelled them and claimed them and added them to the story of self. Thinking flattens experience, makes it two-dimensional. We are profoundly sensitive complex beings and much that we experience and feel is far far beyond description or understanding. It simply is. And if we don't identify with it, if we just feel it then life keeps flowing through us like the river, or the wind.

So, in short, I would probably give the exercises that were given to me by Derek and John. First: perceiving without labels and looking to see if there is a me that is aware or chooses. And then John's exercise of unlabelling what is seen and then turning the awareness 180 degrees to look within and unlabel that - whatever is sensed. I think this was when understanding began to blossom in me and identification with thought lessened dramatically and settled more deeply into nameless being.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
It's been gradual. I've had several experiences of oneness that I can remember - the first when I was nineteen, running over some sand dunes towards the sea, when suddenly there was no me, no boundaries - just everything all one and the purest joy. Once more, age 23. Then 17 years ago a very clear seeing that there is no separate self and the deepest peace and connectedness ever experienced by this consciousness. I've already talked about that and how it was lost, but never forgotten. The jungle of thought grew tall again and I still believed there was an 'I' to be transcended, to be dissolved. And so 'my' search continued.

The tipping point began with the exercises Derek gave me and momentum built strongly after John's exercise of unlabelling what is seen and then what is seeing - that 180 degree flip. And a glimpse there is no boundary between the two. And a realisation that I am that unlabelled awareness. Since then, thoughts and stories gradually less seductive - held more lightly.

What's beautiful for me this time is that there is no need to deny the validity of the human experience. No need to identify with non-duality, to make another image out of this for myself. I feel as though the two can run along beside each other side-by-side and that I am no better nor no worse than any other human being. That we all have more or less moments of forgetting who we are, and we all have moments in which we are awake: when we are present without judgement or resistance, accepting what is now.

I also know there is nothing for me to do but to keep surrendering. And there is no one to surrender. All that is meant by surrender is turning one's awareness back to the light, to Being, to Now. There is no-one to resist - only thoughts that separate. As soon as they are seen as thought, they melt away.

Thanks, John. Let me know if you'd like clarification on any of these points.

Kind regards,

Nicola
***
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. - John 15, King James Bible

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:16 pm

Hi Nicola,

Thank you for the responses. Uplifting to read. :)

I'll share them with Derek and the other guides and they may come back with clarifying thoughts or questions.

With my warmest wishes,
John
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a me in any shape or form? No, there is only Being - life manifesting through this form, this consciousness, this particular set of conditioned beliefs/interpretations/habitual ways of relating to the world. There never has been a 'me'. Only thoughts of 'me' and 'I'. Only memories recorded in this brain/body and stories built out of those memories and projected forwards into an imaginary future. 

What sees all of this, what recognises it, is awareness. And awareness is not separate from anything or anyone. It is neutral, all-encompassing and Now. There is no separate self. There never has been. Just a dance of shadows, of reflections. The mistake made is to confuse what sees with what is reflected. To think that thoughts are controlled or chosen by some central and distinct self - the fat controller in the engine room. ;-)  But there is no controller. No matter how I look, I cannot find one - because the one who thinks she is "I" or "me" looking, is just another thought flowing through this mind-body awareness.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
To the best of my understanding and experience, and acknowledging that there may be deeper layers of truth to discover about this, the concept of self begins in childhood. Others say around age 2 or 3. I can't remember my psychology well enough to state this as a fact, nor remember when my own consciousness - or rather this consciouness became identified with a 'me'. I've watched these little selves develop in my children...as they gradually individuate from their mother, as they experience the pain of separation, or physical pain when their bodies are hurt, as they hear adults talking about them with labels, including names and descriptions... Surrounded by unconscious adults who also believe they are separate selves, who resist life, judge it, judge each other, judge their children and try to control and shape their children, to cultivate certain personality traits and to eliminate others. 

Unfortunately the negative traits that are battled with become as strong as the positive traits that are praised and nurtured. And as the child grows older he or she becomes more and more  identified with habitual ways of thinking and behaving. Depending on the child, there may be very painful feelings of separation and loss early in life - these feelings of loss often associated with parents or parental figures. And so the search for love/belonging/connectedness is turned outwards. Later this may become the search for God. Or success and adulation from one's friends. Or fame. Or romance. Desperately we seek some half-forgotten and half-remembered state of wholeness and completion, not understanding that the more we  seek, the further we travel from its source - which is within. The individual mind-body consciousness accumulates memories and experiences and having confused itself with these early in life, the weight of self often becomes greater as life progresses and one is more and more disconnected from the Now.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
It feels like remembering something I've always known, but forgot long ago, or only understood intellectually. It feels like turning inwards for the love/belonging/connectedness I've always sought. It feels like laughing at the shadow play I confused for myself and ’the other’ and turning my face back to the sun. It feels like being flooded with love and kindness, an inner and an outer melting away of resistance. It feels like accepting, accepting and accepting, moment after moment. And when there is not acceptance, knowing it is only a thought. Seeing the pointlessness of arguing with that thought or trying to change it, because all the arguments are just other thoughts, thoughts divided against each other, thoughts divided from now. And as soon as there is recognition of the thoughts, then there is sinking back into the being - not some remembered or idealised state, but a direct experience of whatever is happening now. It might be fear. And even that is a label. When you take away the label, ther is just energy, moving through. And it's amazing how quickly it passes when you don't label it or make a story out of it.

Here's a funny illustration. Last night I heard a tapping sound, woke up and went out of my room, as I came back in I saw the shape of someone's head outside the window. Thought put this image together with the sound of the tapping and suddenly I had a story about someone trying to get in. Now alongside this thinking there was energy in the body - a sudden alertness which built into heart thumping and adrenalin surging as the story developed. And then suddenly I realised the light from my open doorway was casting shadows - my shadow on the blind, and it was only the wind tapping the blind on the window frame that had made the noise. Seeing the thoughts, which wanted to connect with other stories and memories of intruders or would-be-intruders, I was able to let them go, to be present with the energy moving through my body. This passed quickly and I fell back to sleep.

How else does it feel? Specific differences. Whole body is much more relaxed. Chronic pain and tightness in my lower abdomen is diminishing. Habit of worrying (a huge one for me in the past)  seems to have gone out the window. Is seen that worry is a projection of self into the future, which is impossible and pointless - is really just thought telling itself stories now about what might or might not happen. This thinking creates the illusion of a me that is separate. An easy solution is simply to become present again. This feels like awareness or Being waking up to itself - waking up from a bad dream.

Overall, it feels like a deep knowing that I am not my thoughts. That I am this beingness, this unnameable energy/presence/awareness. And there are memories recorded in this consciousness of all boundaries melting away altogether, of being utterly at one with the world. Of knowing without a doubt that there is no separate self, only life manifesting, the invisible taking refuge in the visible. A shadow-play, a game, in which all of life takes part.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it. 
I would ask them to sit quietly, probably somewhere in nature, to look around them, to see what they see, feel, hear, smell - and then to remove any labels that come up. And to see what happens when the tree is seen without the label. There's no trick to this, as I once imagined. There's nothing thought can do with this. It's really about connecting with your beingness. Feel the tree in your whole being. As the tree moves, can you feel that movement inside you. Or the shape of the tree, how do you respond to this inwardly. Not how would you describe it with words or stories, but how does it make you feel.

Now for some, this exercise might be difficult,as it was for me when I was younger and had a teacher who used the direct pointing method, because I was so totally identified with my thoughts.  But always there is a chink in the armour - some doorway or window through which an awareness of being can be glimpsed. Perhaps by listening to music, by drawing”, by smelling, or by being held by a loved one.

So then I would say, once they have felt that beingness through observation of the outside world, to turn the same sensitive looking inwards. It's definitely NOT an intellectual looking. And it may be helpful to meditate for a short while, to observe one's thoughts arising and falling, or passing by like clouds in the sky, and then to see what is there between the thoughts and after the thoughts. To look at this awareness without labelling it, and then to look for the 'I' or 'me' that chooses what to see, what to feel, what to hear. To discover for oneself if there is any chooser. No one else can really explain this - and it doesn't help if they do. You have to see it for yourself. To observe very closely the movement of thought - and how identification with these thoughts creates the illusion of self. Self choosing. Self thinking. Self in conflict with self. Self remembering. And often the memories are inconsistent, as are the beliefs.

It's important also to watch closely the interaction between thought and emotions. This is something I'm still investigating, but it seems to me the thoughts come first before the emotions we recognise as anger, jealousy, love etc. Before thoughts there are feelings and a movement of energy through the body - but these are much more subtle and ephemeral than they become after thought has labelled them and claimed them and added them to the story of self. Thinking flattens experience, makes it two-dimensional. We are profoundly sensitive complex beings and much that we experience and feel is far far beyond description or understanding. It simply is. And if we don't identify with it, if we just feel it then life keeps flowing through us like the river, or the wind.

So, in short, I would probably give the exercises that were given to me by Derek and John. First: perceiving without labels and looking to see if there is a me that is aware or chooses. And then John's exercise of unlabelling what is seen and then turning the awareness 180 degrees to look within and unlabel that - whatever is sensed. I think this was when understanding began to blossom in me and identification with thought lessened dramatically and settled more deeply into nameless being.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
It's been gradual. I've had several experiences of oneness that I can remember - the first when I was nineteen, running over some sand dunes towards the sea, when suddenly there was no me, no boundaries - just everything all one and the purest joy. Once more, age 23. Then 17 years ago a very clear seeing that there is no separate self and the deepest peace and connectedness ever experienced by this consciousness. I've already talked about that and how it was lost, but never forgotten. The jungle of thought grew tall again and I still believed there was an 'I' to be transcended, to be dissolved. And so 'my' search continued.

The tipping point began with the exercises Derek gave me and momentum built strongly after John's exercise of unlabelling what is seen and then what is seeing - that 180 degree flip. And a glimpse there is no boundary between the two. And a realisation that I am that unlabelled awareness. Since then, thoughts and stories gradually less seductive - held more lightly.

What's beautiful for me this time is that there is no need to deny the validity of the human experience. No need to identify with non-duality, to make another image out of this for myself. I feel as though the two can run along beside each other side-by-side and that I am no better nor no worse than any other human being. That we all have more or less moments of forgetting who we are, and we all have moments in which we are awake: when we are present without judgement or resistance, accepting what is now.

I also know there is nothing for me to do but to keep surrendering. And there is no one to surrender. All that is meant by surrender is turning one's awareness back to the light, to Being, to Now. There is no-one to resist - only thoughts that separate. As soon as they are seen as thought, they melt away.

Thanks, John. Let me know if you'd like clarification on any of these points.

Kind regards,

Nicola
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby unravelme » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:59 am

Thanks, John. I look forward to your response and to visiting the 'after care' forum. An interesting experience this afternoon - of almost melting away completely (or of dissolving) - then fear came up. The image that came afterwards to represent the sensation felt was of thought gripping the doorway half-way through - terrified of disappearing altogether. A feeling of great aliveness moving through my body...as though I'd lived most of my life in some numbed down state. Of course 'self' as thought wanted to claim the experience as its own afterwards, to compare it to the other experience remembered. To find some way of completing the journey through. But what wanted to go through also knew it could not (well, really there is no 'what' to know that - just a flow of thoughts). Stayed with sensations in body, observed thoughts. Trusted there is nothing 'I' can do control this process, to make anything happen or not happen, only be aware of the dance of self and not-self, of form and formless. Any feedback welcome. Kindest regards, Nicola
***
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. - John 15, King James Bible

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Re: Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:25 am

Hi Nicola,
Thanks, John. I look forward to your response and to visiting the 'after care' forum. An interesting experience this afternoon - of almost melting away completely (or of dissolving) - then fear came up. The image that came afterwards to represent the sensation felt was of thought gripping the doorway half-way through - terrified of disappearing altogether. A feeling of great aliveness moving through my body...as though I'd lived most of my life in some numbed down state. Of course 'self' as thought wanted to claim the experience as its own afterwards, to compare it to the other experience remembered. To find some way of completing the journey through. But what wanted to go through also knew it could not (well, really there is no 'what' to know that - just a flow of thoughts). Stayed with sensations in body, observed thoughts. Trusted there is nothing 'I' can do control this process, to make anything happen or not happen, only be aware of the dance of self and not-self, of form and formless. Any feedback welcome. Kindest regards, Nicola
Everyone seems to have different post-gate experiences. Particularly, following this initial seeing, this period can be very fruitful in that more layers are seen through, and the "self" bit by bit is completely taken out of the picture.

Your experience of "melting away" is a common one too. It's seems to be the natural process of clearing away.

After my initial seeing, there've been about five clunks of seeing, some scary, some not, but always peeling away a layer. Life really is not as it appears to be.

All that said, it does settle into an new orientation being of life. The feeling of aliveness may be simply life being allowed expression in the body.

Hope that is useful...feel free to ask away if something should come up in response to this.

WIth warm wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U


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