Hello I am here.

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai

Very good!

Got the hang of quote function :)

I can see that and I really appreciate it :)

Let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the exercises below and report your findings! Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’. Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’, but remember we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.
Can seeing choose? Can feeling choose?

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions.

Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Hi Rali

Can seeing choose? Can feeling choose?

No seeing is just seeing , and feeling is feeling

Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?

I don’t know

Does a thought control it?

The movement happens in absence of thoughts

Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?

NO

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

The thought happens after the movement

Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at
drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
While thinking memories of their qualities popped into the mind

They appeared

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

No choice is made to shut down prefererences
Noone here that is choosing

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

Nothing can described where or what is choosing

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

I joined a gym this week
There had been thoughts about joining something for quite a while
Some physical issues with knees and back and visits to physical therapist
Physical therapist recommending some form of strengthening
Thoughts about how I do not like Gyms, or have not enjoyed them in the past
Friends talking about their exercise classes, pros and cons
Finally deciding which type of Gym to join
First class was at 8am much to my annoyance
If any of these conditions had been different then a different out come
Friends preferences were out of my control
Time of the class was out of my control
Discomfort around the knees was out of my control
Thoughts about how I might help strengthen my body according to thought were chosen
Thoughts about the whole lot were out of my control
According to thought deciding on joining something was in my control.




Some of these were difficult enough, moving of the palm
I couldn’t explain how it happens and mind said there must be an answer

Thanks
Mai

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai

Very good!

I joined a gym this week
There had been thoughts about joining something for quite a while
Some physical issues with knees and back and visits to physical therapist
Physical therapist recommending some form of strengthening
Thoughts about how I do not like Gyms, or have not enjoyed them in the past
Friends talking about their exercise classes, pros and cons
Finally deciding which type of Gym to join
First class was at 8am much to my annoyance
If any of these conditions had been different then a different out come
Friends preferences were out of my control
Time of the class was out of my control
Discomfort around the knees was out of my control
Thoughts about how I might help strengthen my body according to thought were chosen
Thoughts about the whole lot were out of my control
According to thought deciding on joining something was in my control.

I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with “actions” based on previous conditioning. The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before. Why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language. What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”. So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear without the labels? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content? Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

Some of these were difficult enough, moving of the palm
I couldn’t explain how it happens and mind said there must be an answer

Of course, thought would insist on giving it meaning, because that is what thought IS :)

We can also look at “time” if you want?
Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Hi Rali

It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with “actions” based on previous conditioning

This sentence caught my attention , are the actions based on previous conditioning really ?
Is that just another thought ?

Is there anything that causes anything to appear without the labels? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?

Nothing causes anything to appear , if this was true then there would be two , and looking for that which is causing/choosing cannot be found

Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

For the mind/thought to explain whats happening , labels are necessary .

Yea go on , lets look at time , that's an interesting concept :)
Thanks as always ,

Mai

[poppyseed]

Hey Mai

This sentence caught my attention , are the actions based on previous conditioning really ?
Is that just another thought ?

Well, we are not in the business of providing answers (that would be just more beliefs). I’m here to point where to look so you can find the answers for yourself.

So…
Are there “actions”? What is the “action of signing up to gym”? You can use your favourite exercise of breaking down daily activities ( cup of coffee example) to answer these questions. What is conditioning in DE and to what does it apply?

Nothing causes anything to appear , if this was true then there would be two , and looking for that which is causing/choosing cannot be found

That sounds like logic (thinking) and not looking…
Logic is the domain of thought organisation. If that is like that then that is true/false… However, even maths is valid only within the parameters set. If you take two integers and use the standard addition law, then, yes, 2+2=4. But there are many other things those numbers could stand for and many other addition laws, and depending on your definition, 2+2 might be 2 or 1 or 5 or really anything at all. 2+2 isn’t always equal to 4. The point is that math/logic is valid only with the set parameters and 2+2 is a symbolic representation for the properties of elements of a group (sets). And the result depends on what the 2s refer to and how the mathematical operation “+” is defined. Strictly speaking, without those definitions 2+2 can be pretty much anything :) For example 1 drop of water + 1 drop water still equals 1 drop of water (we are not talking about the size here).

So...In your answer you have to specify what “one” and “two” represent and what law says that there could be only “one” but not “two” (spiritual teachings like Advaita Vedanta? Even teachings stop at "not two" :) )

I’m guessing, math is not your favourite subject, but my point is logic is not the solution to seeing what is true and what is not, only actual looking is. You can apply that logic to finding your keys. You can say: "My pockets are too small to fit my keys", or "I don't remember putting them there so they can't be there". But only actual looking will determine if they are there or not. Agreed?

So back to the answer of the original question… Do you see anything causing something else to appear – like seeing dragging the hearing, or anything like this? Without the labels, do you see different "things" interacting with each other?
Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Hello again

Are there “actions”? What is the “action of signing up to gym”?

Thoughts( thinking ) Speaking/ listening ( hearing ) Visuals ( seeing ) Sensations ( feeling )

You can use your favourite exercise of breaking down daily activities ( cup of coffee example) to answer these questions. What is conditioning in DE and to what does it apply?

Memories ( Thinking ) , Sensations ( feelings ) Actions ( seeing and hearing )

I’m guessing, math is not your favourite subject, but my point is logic is not the solution to seeing what is true and what is not, only actual looking is. You can apply that logic to finding your keys. You can say: "My pockets are too small to fit my keys", or "I don't remember putting them there so they can't be there". But only actual looking will determine if they are there or not. Agreed?

Math was my favourite subject 40y ago , the only math that I adore now is counting to 13 , the game of bridge.
I can see you are have a keen handle on math and logistics
Probably tip of iceberg

Do you see anything causing something else to appear – like seeing dragging the hearing, or anything like this? Without the labels, do you see different "things" interacting with each other?

No I dont .

Thanks
Mai

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai
Wonderful!!

Memories ( Thinking ) , Sensations ( feelings ) Actions ( seeing and hearing )

If I have to be pedantic
Action of signing up to gym
Researching gyms, simply = colour (seeing) and thought (thinking)
Talking to people about it, simply = colour (seeing), sound (hearing), and thought (thinking)
Trying equipment at the gym, simply = sensation (feeling), colour (seeing)
Trying a class at the gym, simply = sensation (feeling), colour (seeing), sound (hearing)
Deciding which gym is the best, simply = thought (thinking)

So where exactly are the actions, based on conditioning? Are there actions at all? Where is the conditioning? Maybe in thoughts? The art/manner/patterns of story telling?

Math was my favourite subject 40y ago , the only math that I adore now is counting to 13 , the game of bridge.

Another fine example, how assumptions are wrong and only looking can reveal the truth :)

OK, so let’s have a look at time

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Hi rali

f I have to be pedantic
Action of signing up to gym
Researching gyms, simply = colour (seeing) and thought (thinking)
Talking to people about it, simply = colour (seeing), sound (hearing), and thought (thinking)
Trying equipment at the gym, simply = sensation (feeling), colour (seeing)
Trying a class at the gym, simply = sensation (feeling), colour (seeing), sound (hearing)
Deciding which gym is the best, simply = thought (thinking)

I actually had thought to myself ( thinking ) my response was very lazy ( Judgment=thinking )
I am beginning to break down ordinary daily appearances just like this

So were exactly are the actions, based on conditioning? Are there actions at all? Where is the conditioning? Maybe in thoughts? The art/manner/patterns of story telling?

Conditioning another label/thought
Exactly

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

When I look only now , never not now

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

I cannot see/experience a fading of this now moment , no beginning or end to it

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

No theres not , can only describe the experience after , it’s a memory = thought = thinking now

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

There is no movement

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No I cant’t

How long does the ‘now’ last?

No ending , so cannot say. Its always here

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

Cannot find a beginning or ending .

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

The now becomes the past when thinking about experience. One Im thinking then there is a past.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

The past are thoughts happening now , thinking

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Only thoughts about time
Thanks 
Mai

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai
Wonderful!! :)

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?

Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Hi Rali

Hope you are having a nice day what is left of it
Still enjoying the questions.
They appear also during the day, so plenty of looking.

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?

There is point /edge that devides one thing from another
Grass/soil/ tree/ leaves/ nest/ space/ birds , no point that I can say where one starts and the ‘other’ begins

Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?

No actual border,

Is that interdependent movement outside of you?

This movement is seeing, colours shapes appearing. Seeing labelled as movement.

Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?

Inside or outside of what? There no one here that can be found with an edge to separate inside from outside.

Is there an owner of being?

Noone to be found that owns anything, Human being , what is human but a label for a body with parts which are also labels.

Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?

No I here or other there. No over there only what is seen here.

Is there a “you”?

No

Thanks again
Mairead

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai
Wonderful!!

There is point /edge that devides one thing from another

I’m guessing that is a typo and you mean: “There is no point …”, as the other sentence contradicts that one. Please correct me if I’m wrong

So let's review where we are at with the following questions.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Dear Rali
Before you sent this email , I also had been thinking of mentioning this.
I had explored many of the questions you sent before but your direct asking me to look at DE has been very helpful.
It stops the waffle and highlights what’s actually here.
Was going to ask you do you do any video calls ?

There is point /edge that devides one thing from another

Correct typo ' No Point '

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living?

Not much change in most ways, small noticings that I am looking at DE.
More quietness though have been noticing this for some time before
Physically feeling more energised, few body issues are improved
Golf game has improved 

What changes? What stays the same?

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

There was an idea that the perception of reality would turn inside out, and look very different that’s a thought.
Only this , no next is obvious

Is seeking still going on?

Seeking has been dying off in past year, I’d say it’s not the first thought in morning ,
Cannot say it has disappeared for sure, still enjoy listening to non duality talks but not looking to get something
Enjoying Listening.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

No confusion.

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

YES that is clearly seen

Thank you
Mai

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai

Was going to ask you do you do any video calls ?

I prefer written correspondence as it gives me the freedom to answer when I have the time, rather than have a set time. I will give you my personal details so you can write or chat directly to me, or you can continue writing on this thread even after the inquiry is finished (not that it ever does :) ). I can recommend LU zoom groups where people get together and talk about their experiences with the support of experienced guides. There are also Facebook aftercare groups. So no worries, you won't be alone in this :)
Here is a video that you might find useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

YES that is clearly seen

That is wonderful!
We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?
Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Dear Rali

Thanks a mill.
All good re call , was just thinking would have been nice to say hi
I have no worries re being left alone , i have enough beings should I want to chat about this.
Being part of groups is not my thing really.
I'm not concerned or needing anything from anyone, to be honest I am perfectly happy chatting about bridge or golf , there is not much left to say about this.

My initial reason I contacted LU was I was thinking I might like to guide myself , and wanted to explore one on one with someone.

Send me your 'final' questions , though we know this is never ending :)

Love Mai

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai

My initial reason I contacted LU was I was thinking I might like to guide myself , and wanted to explore one on one with someone.

Wonderful! Let me know when you are ready for that

Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
Love
Rali