Hello I am here.

[Maiam]

. Hi Rali

This was the origonal question

Can there be awareness without objects (nothing else there – no thoughts, sensations, etc.)?
|Then you asked

But I have to ask, is there even no aliveness, no heartbeat and breathing when you say there are no objects (senses)?

I was thinking in deep sleep there is still awareness, ok yes breathing is happening or is it ?
No memory of any object yet awarenesss of no memory .

is it not? Is there anything here that is not the senses?
To report that there is is nothing here , there is a reporting and referencing a ' nothing ' = two
Without sensing there can be noone/nothing to say that there is nothing here .

Mai

[Maiam]

Rali

I have looked again at the quote video next post will be correct

You still haven't mastered the quoting function... It's not that I am so pedantic about the look, but it's just easier to see what questions you are answering - what is mine and what is yours. I have to look at the previous post to see what my questions were... Anyway, see if you can you get the hold of it, please for my sake :)

Have a great day

Mai

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai

I was thinking in deep sleep there is still awareness, ok yes breathing is happening or is it ?
No memory of any object yet awareness of no memory .

What is the DE of deep sleep without the memory of going to sleep – provided there are no dreams (think cup of coffee example)? Break “deep sleep” into DE labels
With dreams obviously the DE of sleep will be mental images and thoughts/stories.
What are memories? What are “no memories”? Obviously there is a memory of "going to sleep" and a story about an interruption of the story of "I". But without the thouught "I went to sleep, there was nothing there and now I'm awake", how is it known that there was no experience (or is it an assumption)? In DE you closed your eyes and then you opened them :).
So let's have a closer look at memories...
Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it. Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear? (Does it appear in the past, or?)
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

I have looked again at the quote video next post will be correct

Awesome!!

Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Hi Rali

Some feedback

What is memory exactly?

Thoughts= Thinking

What is the memory ‘made of’?

Memory is a thoughts=( thinking ) Visuals= ( seeing ) sensations= ( feelings)

WHEN does the memory appear? (Does it appear in the past, or?)

Now

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

Nothing both thinking

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Assumption of a someone with a past , its unknown

WHEN does the future thought appear?

Now

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

Nothing , same as past memories

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It is not known , cannot be known

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Same answer as what memory is made of

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

Thoughts about past and future are simply thinking, past and future are labels
One is based on something which is assumed to have already happened and the other on something which hasn’t happened or imagine will/ wont happen.
Both are unreal.

Mai

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai

Thoughts about past and future are simply thinking, past and future are labels
One is based on something which is assumed to have already happened and the other on something which hasn’t happened or imagine will/ wont happen.
Both are unreal.

Very good!
So what about then "deep sleep"? How is it known then there was a gap in experience?
Please answer the questions related to that in my previous post. In general, if you see a ? or any ? please answer it.
Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Hi Rali

What is the DE of deep sleep without the memory of going to sleep – provided there are no dreams (think cup of coffee example)?

DE of deep sleep is nothing , the report comes after ( Thoughts) = thinking
I had an assumption that awareness was ever present, making a thing into whatever is always here.
For awareness to be here there would be DE of it to confirm that , then two .
Whatever is always here is not a thing and is not self referencing , just No Thing.

Mai

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai

DE of deep sleep is nothing , the report comes after ( Thoughts) = thinking
I had an assumption that awareness was ever present, making a thing into whatever is always here.
For awareness to be here there would be DE of it to confirm that , then two .
Whatever is always here is not a thing and is not self referencing , just No Thing.

Very good!!!

Let's explore "body"...
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Hi Rali

Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:

Sensation of coldness= Feeling
Sensation of container=feeling
Thoughts=thinking
Looking at the can=seeing

Sensation of coldness is felt first then description and thoughts

Cold appears in my description = thinking

Can it be known how tall the body is?

no

Does the body have a weight or volume?

no

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

no

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

I cannot say where one starts and ends , there is not point that devides them

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

I don’t know , cant even say there is a body here

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

At first I felt there is an inside and outside , then I realised realised I was using labels, only thoughts. Closer looking I cannot say what is feeling air on skin and what is feeling sensations . Only Feeling but no idea where or what is feeling.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Body is also a concept made up of other concepts parts , when I don’t think about it there is only feeling

Can the body do things
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Trick question :)
Direct experience tells me the body can do but cannot experience

Mai

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai

Sensation of coldness= Feeling
Sensation of container=feeling
Thoughts=thinking
Looking at the can=seeing

Sensation of coldness is felt first then description and thoughts
Cold appears in my description = thinking

Very good looking!

Body is also a concept made up of other concepts parts , when I don’t think about it there is only feeling

Yes!! The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensation and labels it a ‘body’, but a body cannot be found as actual experience, only thoughts about a body. The same label is used for colours (seeing), smells (smelling) :), and tastes (tasting) (when licking your skin :) ).

Trick question :)
Direct experience tells me the body can do but cannot experience

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
1. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

2. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

3. While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

4. Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

5. Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

8. Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

9. Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Hi Rali

Here my latest feedback.

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
1. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

2. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

No connection only thoughts suggest there is

3. While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No connection , thoughts suggest again

4. Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Not so sure about this one , seems like the movement is connected to the sensation , enhances the sensation.
But if I don’t label it a hand then the sensations are here , unsure where , changing sensations without a known location.

5. Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

Image does not suggest its my body, memory/thoughts suggest this
Image again suggests it’s a body based on memory and labelling , in fact all it is , is colour

6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Knowledge there must be legs is again based on memory

7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Yes Only sensations.

8. Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Sensations

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Sensations when feet touch floor

Seeing as environment changes as body moves
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Walking again is another label based on memory

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

Both are based on thoughts

9. Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Image that is labelled room with sensations appearing without a location.

Thanks again
Mairead

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai
Very good!

Not so sure about this one , seems like the movement is connected to the sensation , enhances the sensation.
But if I don’t label it a hand then the sensations are here , unsure where , changing sensations without a known location.

So “movement” is basically a label for seeing (seeing labelled “hand moving”), right? Sensations are there as well also labelled “hand moving”.
So let’s look at this…

Here is another exercise that might help:
1. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes. Lift your leg and pay attention to the sensation of “leg lifted”
2. Open your eyes and now pay attention to the sight of the leg only.
3. While looking at the leg, pay attention to the sensation of the leg.
Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately? Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them?

A different angle…
With your eyes still closed, listen to whatever sound is present for several moments. Go back and forth between thoughts and the sound.

Does the sound appear in a different “place” to thoughts?
Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides the thoughts and the sound? Or is the line a mental construct?
Do you have to overcome any obstruction in order for sound to appear in exactly the same “place” that the thoughts appear in?

Now open your eyes and notice colours.

Do the colours appear in a different “place” to thoughts and sounds?
Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides thoughts, sounds and colours, or is that division a mental construct?

You can also do the above experiment with sensation and sound instead of thought and sound and see what you find. And taste and sound, smell and sound, thought and colour. There is a variety ways of doing this exercise to see whether or not there is an internal and external divide.
Report back what you found when doing this exercise.
Love
Rali

[Maiam]

Hello rali

Here is another exercise that might help:
1. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes. Lift your leg and pay attention to the sensation of “leg lifted”
2. Open your eyes and now pay attention to the sight of the leg only.
3. While looking at the leg, pay attention to the sensation of the leg.
Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately? Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them?

Sight and sensatiuon appear simulataneously , they don’t depend on each other. I do notice whichever the thought focuses on that features moves more into the foreground.
Without thought they appear of equal value

A different angle…
With your eyes still closed, listen to whatever sound is present for several moments. Go back and forth between thoughts and the sound.

Does the sound appear in a different “place” to thoughts?

Sound and thoughts appear in same place

Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides the thoughts and the sound? Or is the line a mental construct?
No imaginery line/ boundary ,
Do you have to overcome any obstruction in order for sound to appear in exactly the same “place” that the thoughts appear in?

Nothing has to be overcome. Its effortless.

Now open your eyes and notice colours.

Do the colours appear in a different “place” to thoughts and sounds?

Colours appear in front of the visual senses , whereas thoughts and sounds appear to be in a more non descritive place , though if I look to see where the boundary of where the colour and sound is , I cannot locate any

Can you find an actual l ?

When I look for the I , I only find thoughts , sensations , but no actual I

You can also do the above experiment with sensation and sound instead of thought and sound and see what you find. And taste and sound, smell and sound, thought and colour. There is a variety ways of doing this exercise to see whether or not there is an internal and external divide.
Report back what you found when doing this exercise.

Sensations and sound are present simultaneously ,.
I tried this with sound of dishwasher and tingling in the hands and feet
They are v close , impossible say where one starts and other ends .

Quite liked these exercises , more i practice them clearer it is that no devide

[Maiam]

Hi Again rali

Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately? Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them?

Do they depend on each other , is there a link between them
This question needs more looking

To depend on something , is that one cannot exist without the other !
Seeing and feeling/sensation , is there a link
They are appearing in the same space , looking different
Think you asking are they actually different ?
While there are senses these modalities cannot exist independantly of each other.
They are all here in same space at same time...

Thanks , Mai

[poppyseed]

Hi Mai

Colours appear in front of the visual senses , whereas thoughts and sounds appear to be in a more non descritive place , though if I look to see where the boundary of where the colour and sound is , I cannot locate any

Do “eyes” see? What are the visual senses? What are “eyes” in DE? Is there a separation in seeing like in language where you have a subject doing something on an object – i.e. “Eyes seeing the room”?
Close your eyes.
With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is seeing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Mai, sense, anything be found that is seeing the blackness? Or is there only seeing labelled “blackness”? What do you find?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, eyes, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
When you say "in front", is there "inside" and "outside", "in front" or "behind"? Of what? What/where is the reference point?

They are all here in same space at same time...

Does experience appear in space? What is space in DE? Is it a place or just a label for seeing? Can you separate the bird from the sky without labels?

Sight and sensatiuon appear simulataneously , they don’t depend on each other. I do notice whichever the thought focuses on that features moves more into the foreground.
Without thought they appear of equal value

While there are senses these modalities cannot exist independantly of each other.

Are they separate without the “focus”/”labelling?
We don’t experience our senses individually. Rather, these are different aspects/labels of experience. Mind tells us that our senses are separate streams of information. We see with our eyes, hear with our ears, feel with our skin, smell with our nose, taste with our tongue. In DE, though, it is seen as a one experience. Senses “affect” each other. Although speech is perceived through the ears, what we see can change what we hear. In this video, a man produces the same syllable over and over again. If you watch his mouth, you’ll hear the syllable “fah,” but if you look away, you’ll hear “bah.” Although your ears hear “bah,” your eyes see “fah”. This phenomenon is known as the McGurk effect. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k8fHR9jKVM )

Another example of sensory interaction is how both taste and smell are vital for savouring food (flavour). If smell is lost or impaired, for instance, the taste of food will also be impaired, even if taste receptors on the tongue are working fine.
Here is a fun video that demonstrates how a relationship between sight and touch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DphlhmtGRqI

Even though it might look as there are clearly defined senses, DE shows a different story. So even the senses are dependently originated which makes them also empty of inherent existence. We call them DE labels but they are still labels differentiating and describing experience/THIS. As the line between them does not exist, there is just THIS/what IS - indivisible seeing_hearing_tasting_smelling_feeling_thinking. Can you see that?

Language/labels is important for communication, but it’s important to see its empty nature. I suppose the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop comes handy. They are used as a visual representation of what is actually a binary code – zeros and ones - so you can make use of them. But is the icon of email really a box with mail in it?
Of course, an analogy can go only to a point (before it turns into a belief). There is no one to make sense of reality, no one outside of life trying to understand it. There is just THIS.

Love
Rali

[Maiam]

With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

I can

Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

There is seeing and blackness

Can what is seeing the blackness be found?

No it can’t

Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Mai, sense, anything be found that is seeing the blackness?

No

Or is there only seeing labelled “blackness”?

Seeing only yes

What do you find?

I cannot find any boundary between seeing and blackness

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, eyes, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought

?
Must be a thought

When you say "in front", is there "inside" and "outside", "in front" or "behind"? Of what? What/where is the reference point?
Yes referrred to sense of in front in earlier message , again a thought.

Cannot find an ‘I’ anywhere with a location. No reference point , therefore cannot be inside" and "outside", "in front" or "behind"

Does experience appear in space? What is space in DE? Is it a place or just a label for seeing? Can you separate the bird from the sky without labels?

Space , screen , field of awareness, awareness are labels .
As you say bird and sky in direct experience are but colour= seeing
Videos were great.
Got the hang of quote function :)
Mai