Quest for a new perspective

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ChrisPl
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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby ChrisPl » Thu May 30, 2024 9:30 am

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Chris/any other entity be found that is seeing/witnessing 'what can be seen'? How is witnessing different from seeing?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Or there is just seeing?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er/witness, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?


No, there's only seeing, as a direct experience.
I don't know how witnessing is different than seeing 🤷


Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Or there is just seeing?


It can't be found, based on direct experience, so with direct experience being a sole criteria, then seeing/witnessing is the only "thing" there is.


Would anything that is suggested as the see-er/witness, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

It's only a concept/idea/label/thought.
It's not a direct experience.

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby poppyseed » Thu May 30, 2024 9:10 pm

Hi Chris
This seems tricky because I'm not sure what would be the difference between seeing and witnessing, where would difference between one and the other stand 🧐🤔
Hey, I’m just pointing here – you are doing the looking :). So I suppose you answered your own question about there been witnessing. If witnessing is no different than seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling and thinking, is there witnessing at all then as a separate thing?
Not sure about seeing and seen.
There's nothing else besides"what can be seen" then, "what is seen" is the result of seeing, without seeing there's no "what is seen", so they are connected with each other.
3. hearing, because it's a direct experience.
3. Seeing, the reason explained as above 😇
Is “what is seen” the result of seeing, OR “what is seen” is simply a label for seeing. We saw with the “apple” example, there are no objects to be seen, there is just seeing labelled “apple”. Is there a world outside of your senses to be seen, heard… or this is an assumption, a belief? All you have is seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling, and thinking. Whatever is not in the first five is a thought.
You didn’t answer this:
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Chris be found that is seeing/witnessing 'what can be seen'?
Love
Rali
Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in. ~Alan Alda
The mind that aims to understand reality can consider itself satisfied only by reducing it to terms of thought. ~ Albert Camus

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ChrisPl
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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby ChrisPl » Fri May 31, 2024 7:22 am

Hi Rali 👋
If witnessing is no different than seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling and thinking, is there witnessing at all then as a separate thing

Witnessing is of the same status as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and thinking.
It can be considered as a substitute to any of these.
Therefore it's not a separate thing, considering that it's a direct experience.

Is “what is seen” the result of seeing, OR “what is seen” is simply a label for seeing

It's the result of seeing- without seeing the "what is seen" wouldn't be present,
The name/label of "what is seen" is a byproduct of a thought labelling.

Is there a world outside of your senses to be seen, heard… or this is an assumption, a belief?

There's not, it's just an assumption made by thought. Anything that is outside of a direct experience is just an assumption, a belief.

You didn’t answer this:
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Chris be found that is seeing/witnessing 'what can be seen'?

I did answer it, it's in my previous post, which probably got overlooked (I made the second posts with the answers, because I didn't notice at first, that You asked more questions), because otherwise You wouldn't write that 🧐🤷


My answer is/was:


No, there's only seeing, as a direct experience.


Love
Chris

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby poppyseed » Sat Jun 01, 2024 9:17 am

Hi Chris
It's the result of seeing- without seeing the "what is seen" wouldn't be present,
The name/label of "what is seen" is a byproduct of a thought labelling.
Where is this result appearing? Where is seeing appearing? Is there a screen or something? How are seeing and seen different/separate? Is the seeing first and then the seen? How is this observed in DE or is it an assumption/language? Is seeing happening like in language where you have a subject doing something on an object? Is there time in DE (we can look at “time” and “cause and effect” later)?

Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'seen'? Is there seeing AND colour or are they one and the same seeingcolour?


…

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?
Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Love
Rali
Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in. ~Alan Alda
The mind that aims to understand reality can consider itself satisfied only by reducing it to terms of thought. ~ Albert Camus

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ChrisPl
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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby ChrisPl » Sat Jun 01, 2024 11:08 am

Hi Rali 👋

Where is this result appearing? Where is seeing appearing? Is there a screen or something? How are seeing and seen different/separate? Is the seeing first and then the seen? How is this observed in DE or is it an assumption/language? Is seeing happening like in language where you have a subject doing something on an object? Is there time in DE (we can look at “time” and “cause and effect” later)?

Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'seen'? Is there seeing AND colour or are they one and the same seeingcolour?


Result, seeing is appearing in awareness.
There's awareness of it happening.
No labeling such as screen needed.
It's simply present in the awareness.


Are seeing and seen different? 🤔🧐
Well, without seeing there's no seen, so by this logic it can be considered that they are not different, because one can't exist without the other 🤷


Seeing and seen are happening at the same time, because without the first there's no second, and without the second there's no first.

A DE simply states what's really happening, everything else is just an illusion of being real, simply a mental construct, a byproduct of thoughts, so the whole motion of what comes first and/or second is simply the doing of the mind, which builds the story around a DE of seeing.
Such story is unnecessary really, because it doesn't add up anything worthwhile to the process of a DE.


No, seeing is not happening like in language where you have a subject doing something on an object, seeing is a DE, while everything besides seeing is simply a story added up to a DE.


There's no time in a DE, every part of DE is happening in the present moment, in the never ending now.


There's nothing else in seeing, other than the seen.
Colour is a label, therefore not a DE, so there's a seeing, but colour is not seeing, because it's not a DE.


In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?


There's awareness that is aware of a DE happening.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?


No, there's only the thought and awareness that is aware of the thought being present.


Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?


I didn't do anything for any particular though or thoughts to appear, the appearance happens on it's own validation.

I could not have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead, because it's not up to me to decide on the content of the thought.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?


Can't select only pleasent thoughts, because as stated before - it's not up to me, to decide on the content of the thoughts.


I can't choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts.


I can't pick and choose any kind of thought, but I can have an illusion that I can.
This illusion is basically a story of having an influence on the content of the thoughts, while in actuality thoughts simply appear automatically and independently.


Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?


There's nothing beside the thought itself that is responsible for a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one stay.


If You would ask that traffic cop about his reasons, he would tell You something, but that what he would tell You is just a story, not an actuality grounded in a DE.


Flow of thoughts can't be changed, it appearance/disappears happens on it's own validation.

Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?


Thoughts appear from awareness, they are coming from awareness and they disappear into awareness. Thoughts appear randomly.


Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last?


There's one answer to all of these questions - no.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


There's no organised sequence of order of the appearance of though.
The explanation of the order of the appearance of thoughts is simply a story, so it's not an actual thing, unlike a DE.

Are thoughts 100% true?


No, they're definitely not, because they're not grounded in a DE. They're a story, therefore a fabrication.


What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Awareness., a DE.



Love
Chris

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby poppyseed » Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:03 pm

Hi Chris
There's nothing else in seeing, other than the seen.
Colour is a label, therefore not a DE, so there's a seeing, but colour is not seeing, because it's not a DE.
Wonderful!!
There's awareness that is aware of a DE happening.
No, there's only the thought and awareness that is aware of the thought being present.
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
Awareness., a DE.
Thoughts appear from awareness, they are coming from awareness and they disappear into awareness. Thoughts appear randomly.
No, there's only the thought and awareness that is aware of the thought being present.
OK… And here is the idea that there is an awareness, which is a some thing that is having thoughts/thinking/witnessing thoughts! This is why I asked you to leave all teachings behind. There is still a desire to identify as a something. If it’s not an illusory separate self then I must be something that is called Awareness or big SELF that is thinking, doing, feeling etc. Calling yourself Awareness, Self and not I or Chris....changes nothing. There is still a someone/something that is seeking and that life is happening to. In teachings awareness is used as a stepping stone, which at some points has to be seen through...

What behaviours and qualities does this awareness have exactly?
Where can this awareness be found exactly? Describe this awareness to me in detail and tell me where it is located? LOOK and see if you can find anyone or anything that can be defined as awareness? What does it look like – form/colour; does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Is it a container for experiences? Some kind of lone witness? Is awareness a container in which all arises?


Awaring is happening...but can you find anything that is actually awaring?
We looked at witnessing/awaring and we saw that is not different from seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and feeling. So now how is thinking different from awareness (being aware of thoughts)?

I want you to look very carefully at the following pointers...

Where does a thought end, and the knowing of it begin? Is there a visible border between a thought and the knowing of it?
Is there a distance between a thought and the knowing of it or is that just an imaginary distance?

Go to the experience of thinking and go to the experience of knowing about thinking. Are they two different experiences or is it the same experience?
Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “awareness”- “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Without looking at the content of thoughts are there separate thoughts with visible borders ot just thinking? Are the thinker/awareness, thought, and thinking separate? Can there be awareness without objects (nothing else there)? Even in the most amazing meditation where there is silence, spaciousness and nothingness, there are still subtle sensations – “aliveness”, “heartbeat”, “breathing”. Even the experience of empty space (silence, spaciousness and nothingness) is still an experience – a subtle nonetheless but still experienceable. Can there be objects without awareness? Is awareness ever actually experienced or is it just an idea, an abstraction?
Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from your previous experience/teachings!
Regardless of whether thought calls experience "multiple things", or "awareness", or "experience", the most important thing to check is whether there is any border between "knowing" and "known". And what is known is seeinghearingtastingsmellingfeelingthinking
So is there independently/inherently existing awareness?

This video might be helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_ ... ex=17&t=8s
Love
Rali
Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in. ~Alan Alda
The mind that aims to understand reality can consider itself satisfied only by reducing it to terms of thought. ~ Albert Camus

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby poppyseed » Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:10 pm

Hey Chris
Please continue to provide an example of daily activity written as the cup of coffee example with each of your replies! Let me remind you that it should be a report and not a thought exercise

Love
Rali
Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in. ~Alan Alda
The mind that aims to understand reality can consider itself satisfied only by reducing it to terms of thought. ~ Albert Camus

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby ChrisPl » Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:00 pm

Hi Rali 👋

OK… And here is the idea that there is an awareness, which is a some thing that is having thoughts/thinking/witnessing thoughts! This is why I asked you to leave all teachings behind. There is still a desire to identify as a something. If it’s not an illusory separate self then I must be something that is called Awareness or big SELF that is thinking, doing, feeling etc. Calling yourself Awareness, Self and not I or Chris....changes nothing. There is still a someone/something that is seeking and that life is happening to. In teachings awareness is used as a stepping stone, which at some points has to be seen through...

Not proper wording prior, because what I meant by awareness was actually not awareness as a noun, but as a verb.
For some reason didn't use form awarenessing, but that's what I meant by awareness 🤷



What behaviours and qualities does this awareness have exactly?
Where can this awareness be found exactly? Describe this awareness to me in detail and tell me where it is located? LOOK and see if you can find anyone or anything that can be defined as awareness? What does it look like – form/colour; does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Is it a container for experiences? Some kind of lone witness? Is awareness a container in which all arises?

Awaring is happening...but can you find anything that is actually awaring?
We looked at witnessing/awaring and we saw that is not different from seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and feeling. So now how is thinking different from awareness (being aware of thoughts)?

I want you to look very carefully at the following pointers...


Awareness doesn't have any qualities and behaviours because it's not a noun, so with this "said" it's not found anywhere, and since it's not a noun/object, then it doesn't have any form/colour, isn't also describable with senses and also is not a container for experiences.



Nothing is awaring, awareness is a mental construct, not a DE.



Thinking is different from awareness (being aware of thoughts), because thinking is a DE, while awareness, which is a mental construct, is not a DE.


Where does a thought end, and the knowing of it begin? Is there a visible border between a thought and the knowing of it?


Thought ends, when another thought starts.
Knowing of the thought happens at the same time as though starts.
There's no visible border between a thought and the knowing of it.
It's like the thought can't exist without the knowing of it.


Is there a distance between a thought and the knowing of it or is that just an imaginary distance?


It's just an imaginary distance.


Go to the experience of thinking and go to the experience of knowing about thinking. Are they two different experiences or is it the same experience?


It's the same experience.


Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “awareness”- “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Without looking at the content of thoughts are there separate thoughts with visible borders ot just thinking? Are the thinker/awareness, thought, and thinking separate? Can there be awareness without objects (nothing else there)?


What's a "solid" thought? 🧐🤔


There's no awareness (noun), only awarenessing (verb).


There's only thinking, a DE.


Thought is not separate from thinking, because without thinking thought does not exist, because while thinking is a DE, a though is not a DE.


Awareness is a mental construct, so it's an object, so without object there's no awareness.


Can there be objects without awareness? Is awareness ever actually experienced or is it just an idea, an abstraction?


Awareness is a noun, not a DE, it's an object. No object equals no awareness.


Awareness is not experienced, it's just an idea, an abstraction, a mental construct.


So is there independently/inherently existing awareness?


No, there's not.


Awareness is a mental construct, camouflaging and substituting for a DE of awarenessing (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, thinking, feeling).


Please continue to provide an example of daily activity written as the cup of coffee example with each of your replies! Let me remind you that it should be a report and not a thought exercise


Don't feel like doing it, therefore I won't do it 🤷



Love
Chris

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby poppyseed » Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:10 pm

Hi Chris
Don't feel like doing it, therefore I won't do it 🤷
Unfortunately, it doesn’t work like this. This is not pick what you like and what you don’t – I point, you look! If it doesn’t work for you then maybe you should look for another guide, as this process can work only if there is a trust between us. If I believe that this exercise will be helpful, it’s because I have experience with guiding and I know that it helps. Also - the stories about likes and dislikes are exactly what should be examined here. Anyway, please let me know if you are willing to proceed.
Love
Rali
Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in. ~Alan Alda
The mind that aims to understand reality can consider itself satisfied only by reducing it to terms of thought. ~ Albert Camus

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby ChrisPl » Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:18 pm

Hi Rali 👋

please let me know if you are willing to proceed


Not willing to proceed with this particular task.



Love
Chris

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby poppyseed » Sun Jun 02, 2024 8:45 pm

Hi Chris
This inquiry is exactly what this task is about - seeing normal everyday life in a new light. It’s not about special states or philosophizing. Can you please explain what you have against it? Is it too trivial or prosaic for you?
Love
Rali
Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in. ~Alan Alda
The mind that aims to understand reality can consider itself satisfied only by reducing it to terms of thought. ~ Albert Camus

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby ChrisPl » Sun Jun 02, 2024 9:36 pm

Hi Rali 👋

It’s not about special states or philosophizing.Can you please explain what you have against it? Is it too trivial or prosaic for you?


Yet I find it very mentally taxing.
The repetitiveness is mentally taxing.


You asked me to do it once, I did it.
You asked me again, I did again.
Though asking it for the third time is simply too much...


Trivial or prosaic - that would be labeling it, which is not a DE.


Love
Chris

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby poppyseed » Mon Jun 03, 2024 10:10 am

Hi Chris
Trivial or prosaic - that would be labeling it, which is not a DE.
Yet I find it very mentally taxing.
The repetitiveness is mentally taxing.
And yet you label it as “mentally taxing” which is not DE (or is it??) :))) What is this “I” that finds the exercise “mentally taxing”? Are you the one that is doing the exercise?

Resistance serves a purpose – to protect the imaginary self from harm. With the self seen as empty of inherent existence, the resistance is still there (does not drop on the spot), but it is seen as protecting the status quo. Thoughts are self-organised, they don’t need a thinker to appear. They stick to each other like matching puzzle pieces (stories about stories). Anything new that comes along and does not match the pattern will be attempted to get rid of as it costs the system “energy” to rebuild from scratch (confirmation bias). That is how “fearful” and “resisting” thoughts form – they protect the status quo. Resistance comes in many “shapes and forms” – boredom, distraction, stubbornness, fear, anger…
Emotion = sensation + thought
So what is in common between all of these is the story. Sensations come and go. Do they know anything about boredom, anger, fear…? They just ARE.
You are saying it is “mentally taxing”. Isn’t it what we are doing here just that – changing perceptions (mental labels)? Repetitiveness is there to form a habit of seeing the “world” in a new light. As the world (your world) is a projection of your thoughts, there is great value in becoming aware of unconscious bias and habitual suffering. “Your world,” the totality of your experience of all that is happening, is a creation of language, and words are the building blocks that create the story about it. Nothing in the experience changes after the inquiry except for the labels/stories about it.
If you are really serious about this inquiry, please do a few (cup of coffee activities) with the new labels and observe all the stories/emotions that come along. Seeing there is no self is not the end – all of the conditioning has to be seen through for what it is. It doesn’t automatically fall out. Every time resistance shows it a most definite invitation for a story to be inspected…
Looking forward to your examples :)
Love
Rali
Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in. ~Alan Alda
The mind that aims to understand reality can consider itself satisfied only by reducing it to terms of thought. ~ Albert Camus

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby ChrisPl » Mon Jun 03, 2024 6:34 pm

Hi Rali 👋


And yet you label it as “mentally taxing” which is not DE (or is it??) :))) What is this “I” that finds the exercise “mentally taxing”? Are you the one that is doing the exercise?


"Mentally taxing" was only used as a convenient way to point You to what kind of a feeling it was.
Without that You'd be left puzzled about the feeling.



I obviously know, that the description is labeling, a story and not a DE.
That's well understood and remembered by now 😇



There's no "I" that finds the exercise "mentally taxing". It's simply a characteristic of the feeling present, therefore there's no me who's doing or not doing the exercise, but simply a DE of doing/not doing.


Emotion = sensation + thought


Yes, emotion is a sensation (feeling) with a label, story attached to it.


So what is in common between all of these is the story. Sensations come and go. Do they know anything about boredom, anger, fear…? They just ARE.
You are saying it is “mentally taxing”. Isn’t it what we are doing here just that – changing perceptions (mental labels)?


Yes, sensations (feelings) the same as thoughts, they come and go.
While they may not know anything about boredom, anger, fear, etc. it still doesn't mean, that the sensation isn't of a certain characteristic 🤷



What we're doing here is the process of unlearning certain mental patterns, suppose it could also be understood as changing perceptions, but then again perception is a label as well, because it's origin is in a thought.




Love
Chris

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Re: Quest for a new perspective

Postby poppyseed » Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:07 pm

Hi Chris

I see no examples, which means that you are not willing to give this inquiry a proper chance. You want it to be on your terms, but the point of a guide, besides pointing, is to see where your biases and hidden obstacles are and help you deal with them. However, taht will not work without openness and willingness to look. I insisted 3 times on doing the exercise and you are refusing to do that by saying "you don't feel like doing it, therefore you won't do it", being stubborn in your refusal like a little child, even though you stated an 11 for willingness to look. "11" usually means that you would do everything, whatever is needed, in order to see what needs to be seen.

This is not working. It seems you are not really interested in a inquiry/looking, but in having a discussion, proving a point, which I said from the beginning this is not. Having in mind that I and all the guides are volunteers, and there are so many people waiting to be guided, I can just wish you good luck in your own inquiry. My advice would be, if you want it, to examine all that resistance to looking and come back when you are ready to look.

Unless, you want to continue with the examples (which are the quintessence of looking) with every reply…
What we're doing here is the process of unlearning certain mental patterns, suppose it could also be understood as changing perceptions, but then again perception is a label as well, because it's origin is in a thought.
Yes, perception is a label, and that is the only thing that could be changed as a result of this inquiry. Hence the demand for practicing changing these old patterns with the exercises. These patterns cannot be changed by talking about that but only through active looking - not just during answering the questions but throughout the day. Experience is what experience has always been and will be - just THIS. If you are interested in special states, this forum is not the place for that. Here we deal only with mundane everyday stuff, which sometimes involves "mentaly taxing" activities :)
All my love
Rali
Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in. ~Alan Alda
The mind that aims to understand reality can consider itself satisfied only by reducing it to terms of thought. ~ Albert Camus


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