Grateful For Help Seeing

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Fri May 10, 2024 2:29 pm

Dear Warissem,
Does it mean that there is a separate self when distracted by the illusions?
No, there is not really a separate self when distracted at these times, just a belief in a separate self running in the mind, and attention focused on it.
What do you mean by illusions ?
I mean the concept of being a separate self, plus all of the mind chatter that goes along with it.
Are you aware of these words on the screen?
Yes
Is there still seeking?
There is seeking an end to the error of believing in a separate self.
If so what is missing?
Clearly seeing how life is unfolding on its own is missing a lot of the time.

Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Fri May 10, 2024 9:05 pm

Good evening
No, there is not really a separate self when distracted at these times, just a belief in a separate self running in the mind, and attention focused on it.
I don’t understand what you mean : in one hand, you say that there is not really a separate self, in another hand you say that there is a belief in a separate self.
Are you expecting that thoughts about a separate self, about Marty will cease?
Just be aware that thoughts are only thoughts, sensations are only sensations, …

Is there still seeking?
There is seeking an end to the error of believing in a separate self.
Are you a separate self here now, at this very moment?
If so, where are you hiding ?
Who is seeking?

If so what is missing?
Clearly seeing how life is unfolding on its own is missing a lot of the time.
Does life need a separate self to unfold?
Who wants to see clearly?

Best for you

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Sat May 11, 2024 3:16 pm

Dear Warissem,
Are you expecting that thoughts about a separate self, about Marty will cease?
No, this is not expected. It is hoped that thoughts about a separate self will continue but no longer be believed in.
Are you a separate self here now, at this very moment?
If so, where are you hiding ?
Who is seeking?
Whenever attention is brought to the matter, no separate self is found hiding anywhere.
There is no separate self that is seeking. The seeking is part of the flow and unfolding of life here.
Does life need a separate self to unfold?
Who wants to see clearly?
Life does not need a separate self to unfold. The desire to see clearly is part of that unfolding, without the involvement of a non-existent self.

Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Sat May 11, 2024 8:46 pm

Good evening

There is clarity but ...
No, this is not expected. It is hoped that thoughts about a separate self will continue but no longer be believed in.
Do you want to say that there is no separate self but there is still behaving as if there is?
If it is so, I invite you to watch this :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

Anyway, I invite you to expose any lasting doubt about the belief in a separate self.

Best for you

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Sun May 12, 2024 4:48 pm

Dear Warissem,
Do you want to say that there is no separate self but there is still behaving as if there is?
Yes, this is true. It doesn't seem to be a result of doubt or belief. More like a habitual behaviour, and also fear of losing control.
Thanks for the link to the wonderful video.
In the last few days there has been a significant increase in time spent seeing life unfolding on its own and the body doing its own thing. Still not most of the time yet.

Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Sun May 12, 2024 10:36 pm

Good evening
Yes, this is true. It doesn't seem to be a result of doubt or belief. More like a habitual behaviour, and also fear of losing control.
Yes, conditioning, old habits and tendencies are still operating even after having seen through the illusion of a separate self. The sole "practice" is to be knowingly aware. There is no more to it. Everything happens when it happens.

Thanks for the link to the wonderful video.
You are much welcome, I think it was of some help.

In the last few days there has been a significant increase in time spent seeing life unfolding on its own and the body doing its own thing.

Yes, how do you feel to see this?

Still not most of the time yet.
Is there a case where life is not unfolding by itself?

Feel free to expose any lasting doubt and let me know if there is still seeking.

Best for you

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Mon May 13, 2024 2:11 pm

Dear Warissem,
The sole "practice" is to be knowingly aware.
Does this mean knowing and being aware of life unfolding on its own, moment to moment?
In the last few days there has been a significant increase in time spent seeing life unfolding on its own and the body doing its own thing.
Yes, how do you feel to see this?
Seeing this increase feels exciting, and a feeling of some relief.
Is there a case where life is not unfolding by itself?
In reality, no there is not. There are only remaining illusions of there being a self, especially when interacting with others.
Feel free to expose any lasting doubt and let me know if there is still seeking.
Will do this.

Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Mon May 13, 2024 7:18 pm

Hi Marty
Does this mean knowing and being aware of life unfolding on its own, moment to moment?
There is no effort to do. Being aware is ordinary. The sole "practice" is knowing of being aware (awareness aware of itself).

Yes, how do you feel to see this?
Seeing this increase feels exciting, and a feeling of some relief.
Glad to hear that.

In reality, no there is not. There are only remaining illusions of there being a self, especially when interacting with others.
Is there a you, a separate self interacting with others?


Let me know about your concerns about all this stuff.

Best for you

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Tue May 14, 2024 5:28 pm

Dear Warissem,
Is there a you, a separate self interacting with others?
No there is not. Just the illusion.
The sole "practice" is knowing of being aware (awareness aware of itself).
A concern: Is it possible for "awareness to be aware of itself" all the time (like when focusing on tasks, thinking, etc.), or just when sitting doing nothing?

Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Tue May 14, 2024 9:51 pm

Good evening

About your concern, the answer is : I don't know and what it happens just happens.

In this forum, we ask final questions to end the dialog or to see if something is not clear yet. Let me know if you are ready to ponder on the final questions.

Best for you

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Thu May 16, 2024 5:00 am

Dear Warissem,
If you think I am ready for final questions, then so be it.
Thanks
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Thu May 16, 2024 7:51 am

Good morning

These are the final questions, ponder on each question and elaborate the answers. Take your time.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Best wishes

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Sat May 18, 2024 5:02 pm

Dear Warissem,
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, there is not a separate self/me/I entity anywhere in reality. It seemed like there was, but it was just imagined and believed in. It doesn't exist in reality now, and did not exist in reality in the past.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of the separate self is a pattern of thoughts playing out in the mind that revolves around the idea of being an individual and solitary creature that needs to be protected and defended against threats. This pattern attracts and holds attention with stories, fears, desires, and a constant commentary on what is happening moment to moment. The commentary makes it seem like there is a me-entity making things happen in life by taking credit for what is unfolding.
It starts in early childhood, probably through the mixture of a built-in defence mechanism that humans are born with, and the conditioning influence of family, friends, and society.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels amazing to see through this illusion. There is a much deeper experience of the present moment, with awareness being able to be aware of so many different things going on, instead of just stuck focusing on thoughts.
Before starting this dialogue, the illusion of the self was just a mental concept. It was very rarely experienced at the deeper level of seeing and feeling it in the moment. Now it is deeply experienced for small stretches of time throughout the day, especially while the body is doing its thing on its own, and while observing nature. It is gradually starting to creep into other situations (such as watching videos, reading, being around others), but just a little bit.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
A combination of things seemed to push me over. The exercises you gave and the guidance were definitely key. Also, reading the books "Liberation Unleashed" and "Gateless Gatecrashers" brought up similar perspectives and issues that helped. All of this led to realizing how this is just about seeing what's really happening in the moment, life unfolding on its own, instead of trying to understand it in the mind and create new beliefs.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
-Decisions are made in the unfolding of life, but the illusion of a controlling self makes it appear that this self has made them
-Intention is also naturally occurring, but the illusion lays claim to it as well.
-Free will is part of the illusion of the self. It is amazing to think that there is such a debate in Philosophy about Free Will, and "I" previously would have said it exists, but now I've seen that it doesn't. We are just doing what we've been conditioned and programmed to do.
-Choice and Control are also illusions. Choice falls under the same illusion as free will. Control is something that is desirable in the pattern of self-illusions because it would be an antidote to fear, but it doesn't work because there is no real control over "self", "others", "life", "the world". They are all unfolding as the one Life.
What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.
Things happen due to unseen instincts, decisions, and motivations. They just happen. An itch arises and it is scratched. It is time to leave and the body gets up and starts walking.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
There is no you/me/I that is responsible for anything. This manifestation of Life (labelled Marty) is playing roles in the world that could be labelled responsibilities, but there is no self who is in charge of them because they are just being done as part of the flow.
6) Anything to add?
There was some disbelief that arose when you proposed asking the final questions. There was surprise that "I" was ready because there was an expectation that there would be some big dramatic revelation here, instead of the gradual way in which it happened. There was also an expectation that the illusion would be completely wiped out in all situations. It is now seen that everyone is different, and that for many the illusion will linger a while in some situations.

Thanks very much,
Marty

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warissem
Posts: 2830
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Sat May 18, 2024 5:16 pm

Hi Marty

Glad to read your answers. I will invite other guides to take a look at your thread, there could be further questions.

Best for you


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