consistent authentic/true mode of being

[Leto]

Thank you, you too :) (if it is night in your time zone, otherwise I wish you a great day :))

[Leto]

Hey Steve,

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

I see red letters.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The color red is experienced.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

If I see with DE, there is no suggestion, there is only red. But if read the label and pay attention to it It suggest soemthing elese and doesn‘t have a one-to-one correspondence with reality.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If I see with DE, there is no overlaying, there is only red. But if read the label and pay attention to it, it overlays.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No it isn‘t.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

They have no effevt in DE.

Let me know what is SEEN.

Nothing but red.

[Steve101]

Hi Leto,

This is excellent, you can see that ‘red’ is the Direct Experience is not “green” as the label suggest, Let’’s take it a little farther:


Friend/Stranger

Bring up some thoughts about a character labeled "friend."

Then bring up some thoughts about a character labeled "stranger."

Compare these thoughts.

Is there a difference in these thoughts?

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up some thoughts about a character labeled "friend."

After that, look at some thoughts about the character labelled "me.”

Is there a difference?

Is there anything special about thoughts with the "me-character" content?

Let me know what is found.

Labeling the day, the Sensations, etc. as gloomy or depressing, does nothing to reduce their beauty or joy, but can hide the truth from our awareness.

[Steve101]

Hi Leto, Just as a side note:

I am in the UK, therefore London time zone. So please do not worry if you do not receive an answer the same day as it might be the evening and I don’t do anything computer/Internet related at that time. Thanks Leto.

[Leto]

Hey Steve,

I am in the UK, therefore London time zone. So please do not worry if you do not receive an answer the same day as it might be the evening and I don’t do anything computer/Internet related at that time. Thanks Leto.

No worries, thnaks for leeting me know. I‘m in Berlin ,so the time difference should not be that different :)

Is there a difference in these thoughts?

The friend thought makes me happy, the stranger thought is neutral.

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

No, both are just thoughts.

Is there a difference?

hahaha no ther isn‘t (this realization made me laught)

Is there anything special about thoughts with the "me-character" content?

No! (first it feels like there is something special, that the labe „I am…“ is more familiar or more linked with me than „Riana is…“ but in DE there isn‘t

[Steve101]

Hi Leto, this is excellent.

Is there anything special about thoughts with the "me-character" content?

No! (first it feels like there is something special, that the labe „I am…“ is more familiar or more linked with me than „Riana is…“ but in DE there isn‘t

When you looked at the difference between the words friend and stranger you could see that they were both just thoughts that overlayed reality, which is excellent. When asked about the ‘Me’ character your answer, at first, was just an immediate ‘No,’ however, more thoughts began to appear on the scene e.g. ‘(first it feels like there is something special….’

I think that you can see that the nature of ‘Me’ or ‘I’ is that it will look for an opportunity to tell stories but as you looked in DE you began to see the truth.

APPLE EXERCISE

We’ll use an apple for this example but you can use any type of fruit or vegetable.

When looking at the apple, there's color and shape; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The taste of ‘apple’ is simply known
The color of ‘apple’ is simply known
Sensation of ‘apple’ is simply known (when apple is touched)
The smell of ‘apple’ is simply known
Thought arising without content about ‘apple’ is known.

However, is an apple actually known?

Can you see that words don’t ever touch the real experience that happens on the taste buds? See how the concepts of sweet, juicy, tasty, and delicious are not the actual sweetness and deliciousness that you experienced but a mere shadow of experience put into words. Concepts are not experience

[Leto]

Hey Steve,

I did the exercise with a cookie because I don‘t have an apple at home rn. It was a very interesting experience to eat the cookie in DE. Actually, I didn't eat anything, I just ate. Actually, I didn't even just eat, because it's just a label. Actually, nothing happened! And somehow something did happen. Just weird haha. Interesting also, during this exercise there were thoughts about the cooki but they didm‘t really matter.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

The content is also known, but the content isn‘t linked to reality like the color of an apple is not linked to the label „apple“.
So yes, I can see conten in my thoughts, bit it is just content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

There is no apple or cookie, only color and a thought about cookie or apple.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No.

However, is an apple actually known?

No.

Can you see that words don’t ever touch the real experience that happens on the taste buds? See how the concepts of sweet, juicy, tasty, and delicious are not the actual sweetness and deliciousness that you experienced but a mere shadow of experience put into words. Concepts are not experience

Yes I can see that.

[Steve101]

Hi Leto, this is fantastic looking, well done! You can see that our internal description of our experience is not the same as direct authentic experience of LOOKING and being. We are not trying to demonize ‘labels’ or thought with content here but gain fresh perspective on it.

Actually, nothing happened! And somehow something did happen. Just weird haha. Interesting also, during this exercise there were thoughts about the cooki but they didm‘t really matter.

This is fascinating isn’t it. Did you get a sense that there were moments when you were trying to analyse and label the experience of eating the cookie but also moments when eating the cookie was just happening and you were immersed in the experience?


Think back to the ‘Socks exercise’

Without looking at your socks, What color do you think your socks are?

Now look directly at your socks and, without thinking, immediately write down the color.

Which felt more real…more authentic…true?


INSIGHT

It is important to understand that we will only ever really see the truth of the false in a non-conceptual way. What do we mean by this? As we talked about before, content filled thoughts can pop up and that is ok but when we rest our attention in DE there can be ‘knowing’ and ‘insight’ arising without content.

Think about a time that you had an insight about something as an indirect non-labelled knowing, something purely intuitive. It might be one of those ‘a-ha’ moments that transcends verb-noun description and you might say, ‘oh....my....god,’ you just know but can’t really explain it. It could be a project you were working on, a task you were given, a relationship, a book you were reading etc etc.


Give examples and describe what happened.

please look for those moments when you go about your day and LOOK in DE and report back.


When you are asked to look in DE do you ever think; ‘look at what/where?’ ‘what am ‘I’ supposed to be looking at/for?’ And if this happened, why do you think this is?

[Leto]

Hey Steve,

This is fascinating isn’t it. Did you get a sense that there were moments when you were trying to analyse and label the experience of eating the cookie but also moments when eating the cookie was just happening and you were immersed in the experience?

Yes, I get a sense.

Without looking at your socks, What color do you think your socks are?

Black

Which felt more real…more authentic…true?

The second one.

Give examples and describe what happened.

- When I read something in this forum about control a couple of days ago and I suddenla understand: Ofc there is no control. I felt very reliefd.
- A couple of times with the exercies you gave me (Apple excercise for example or my insight about knowing)
- Yesterday when somoene told me its far more important to be interested instead of being interisting.
- The moment I realized I love a friend not only when the friend is war but also when the friend is cold. i love the person as a whole.

please look for those moments when you go about your day and LOOK in DE and report back.

Yesterday:
- the thing about being interested instead of being interesting
- when I realized that I can't be sure that my perception is MY perception. It could also be someone else's.
- when I looked again and again in DE, there was no realization as little as there was a cookie in the cookie exercise. I think in DE there is never cognition, the cognition comes later when the thoughts categorize and label it.

When you are asked to look in DE do you ever think; ‘look at what/where?’ ‘what am ‘I’ supposed to be looking at/for?’ And if this happened, why do you think this is?

No, this happens when DE is over.

[Steve101]

Hi Leto,

This is fascinating isn’t it. Did you get a sense that there were moments when you were trying to analyse and label the experience of eating the cookie but also moments when eating the cookie was just happening and you were immersed in the experience?

Yes, I get a sense.

Look at this ‘sense’ again in more detail and tell me what you find. Was this sense just an ‘inkling’ about something or were you so immersed in the experience that……FILL IN THE BLANK. You can grab another cookie for this if you wish.

Give examples and describe what happened.

- Yesterday when somoene told me its far more important to be interested instead of being interisting.

Really LOOK in DE for the part of you that can be interested or interesting and report what you find.

Please look for those moments when you go about your day and LOOK in DE and report back.

Yesterday:
- the thing about being interested instead of being interesting
- when I realized that I can't be sure that my perception is MY perception. It could also be someone else's.
- when I looked again and again in DE, there was no realization as little as there was a cookie in the cookie exercise. I think in DE there is never cognition, the cognition comes later when the thoughts categorize and label it.

With regards ‘perception’, LOOK in DE, is there a perceiver? If so where can the perceiver be found? Is it just behind the eyes? If perception does exist and it’s someone else’s, who does it belong to?


Early on in this inquiry I said “Question everything”. Really start to work this now Leto and REALLY LOOK and question your own assumptions and thoughts: ASK…IS THAT REALLY TRUE?……For example….see your statement below

“ I think in DE there is never cognition, the cognition comes later when the thoughts categorize and label it.”

Is that really true? Really delve into this. There is no cognition in DE without labelling?

[Leto]

Hey Steve,

Look at this ‘sense’ again in more detail and tell me what you find. Was this sense just an ‘inkling’ about something or were you so immersed in the experience that……FILL IN THE BLANK. You can grab another cookie for this if you wish.

I grabed a Burger instead (I should eat healthier lol) and I was so immersed in the experience that there was not Burger anymore, no eating, no Burger King. There was nothing but what happened. I need conten-thinking to label what I do, to labe that „I am eating“ or „I am the Burger“. But without conten, there is nothing but sensation.

Really LOOK in DE for the part of you that can be interested or interesting and report what you find.

These parts are just thoughts. In DE there is nothing that really could be interested or interesting.

With regards ‘perception’, LOOK in DE, is there a perceiver? If so where can the perceiver be found? Is it just behind the eyes? If perception does exist and it’s someone else’s, who does it belong to?

The percetpion-thing is really sticky. Sometimes when I‘m looking in DE I have a hunch that there is no one who perceives but in the end I never get throug. This feeling or this thought is so so strong that there is some one bc something is perceiving. Something or some one sees the world. I know it isn‘t true but I can‘t realy realize that.

Is that really true? Really delve into this. There is no cognition in DE without labelling?

I really don‘t know. If you ask me to question everything I also question this answer. But I would say yes: If there is no content-thinking there is no labeling. And if there is conten-thinking in DE it is just content-thinking which I don‘t care about.

[Steve101]

Hi Leto,

Look at this ‘sense’ again in more detail and tell me what you find. Was this sense just an ‘inkling’ about something or were you so immersed in the experience that……FILL IN THE BLANK. You can grab another cookie for this if you wish.

I grabed a Burger instead (I should eat healthier lol) and I was so immersed in the experience that there was not Burger anymore, no eating, no Burger King. There was nothing but what happened. I need conten-thinking to label what I do, to labe that „I am eating“ or „I am the Burger“. But without conten, there is nothing but sensation.

The next time that you are eating simply notice a few things:
- while you are eating is there just a knowing that you are eating or do you hear a voice in your head saying, ‘yep, I’m eating’
- do you need to actually hear the words in your head, ‘I am eating’ to ‘know’ you are eating
- If someone asked you what you were doing, would you have to hear the words in your head before you answered: ‘I’m eating’
- Do you hear each ingredient in your head labeled out loud as you taste it and if you did would this enhance the experience of the burger or diminish it?
- If you see a tree do you need to hear the words, ‘Oh it’s a tree’ to know that it’s a tree
- As you go about your day tomorrow notice the activiities where mind labelling seems to occur more than others.

But without conten, there is nothing but sensation.

Exactly!!! Do you want to be present and fully experience the beauty of a sunset or do you want to see the sun go down while a voice in your head explains to all the ins and outs of what the big orange ball in the sky is up to?

This feeling or this thought is so so strong that there is some one bc something is perceiving. Something or some one sees the world. I know it isn‘t true but I can‘t realy realize that.

When you say ‘I can’t really realize that,’ can you expand on that and explain what you really mean by the word ‘realize’ here and what you think the word ‘realize’ means for you personally?.

Sometimes when I‘m looking in DE I have a hunch that there is no one who perceives

Could this ‘hunch’ also be called ‘insight’ or ‘knowing without labels’

Something or some one sees the world

Does something or someone actually see the world or is seeing just happening? What comes up when you read this

[Steve101]

Hi Leto,

I am going to be away in Spain for 4 weeks from tomorrow. However, your journey will continue, it’s just that I won’t be able to post for a few days. Take your time over the questions below and perhaps do the walk in nature exercise if you get the chance.

[Steve101]

Hi Leto,

Just to be clear. I will be available again from the day after tomorrow (Wednesday) to continue posting again here and continue if that is ok.

[Leto]

Hey Steve,

I will be available again from the day after tomorrow (Wednesday) to continue posting again here and continue if that is ok.

Thanks for letting me know! And thank you for bein avaible despite your month in spain! Save travel :)