Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

[unravelme]

p.s. before leaving on retreat yesterday I was talking with my husband about this shift in perception and the implications of discovering the 'I'/me' I've been identifying with all these years is false. He told me that this way of seeing things was termed 'naive realism' (I think that's what he called it), and that it was no longer fashionable amongst philosophers and psychologists. These days, he explained, there is an understanding that the concept of self must be developed/strengthened to a certain degree to be able to operate in the world effectively and sanely - that the self must be resilient, with well-developed beliefs-systems, goals and so on. To be honest, I couldn't really get my head (or my being) around what he was saying. But I laugh every time I think of it: I am 'unfashionably' free! Yippee! :-D

[unravelme]

p.p.s. And even that (being 'unfashionably free') is another image/identification to surrender! Okay. Going offline now. Back Sunday night. :)

[Derek]

There is nothing to do and no separate 'one' to do it.

That's exactly it. Looking forward to your answers to the questions.

[unravelme]

Extracts from my journal:

Fri 19th, 2012:
Dear Being: You are my true muse. I have mistaken so many others for you, all my life, sought nurturing and confirmation from without....and all along you were here within and all around me; the very ground from which I spring. You are the source of all of me and all of this and all of life, and I am but one tiny fractional expression of the vastness of thee...

Sat 20th, 2012:
There is less and less to say about 'me', less and less stories to tell and more and more settling into this stillness, this simplicity, which is also paradoxically so complex. And yet, when I am a part of it, I do not need to understand the complexity, I do not need to label or interpret. I only need to be here now, immersed in the exquisite presence of being.

Sun 21st, 2012
Be simple, Beloved. Arise each day with stillness. Let your first breath be of stillness. Let your first drink be of stillness. Feel your heart beating, in stillness.
And if you cannot find stillness within, then sit quietly and let her take you by the hand. Never try to be the master of stillness, for she shall elude you. Instead, be her friend, invite her into your heart as you would invite a very dear friend into your home...

Tonight:
Derek, answers to your questions later. Still deepening.
Many blessings.

[unravelme]

Hi Derek,

I've spent a little time tonight reading posts by others who are 'through the gate' - e.g. s-p-a-c-e. Especially reading John's posts, I 'remembered' the complete dissolving of separation that he speaks of, and I must clarify that I have not experienced that as yet. Though 'me' is much much less, there is still the sense of a doer (even if an illusory one), there are still thoughts of 'me' arising - like pride at some of the poetry I wrote over the weekend. The biggest shift has been from the experience of doing and controlling, to being the witness. As 'me' thoughts are seen/witnessed, so they fall away, and I sink back into stillness.

Nor have I had any profound feelings of fear or sorrow as others describe. Last night I read aloud a piece I had written to Being - like a prayer - and something came into the room - descended over us all - there are no words for it. But it was utterly wild and untamed, such a fierce presence/silence, it engulfed all of us - and without any plan, we all sat in a deep state of meditation for about half an hour, then went silently to bed. We all felt and spoke the next morning of the sacredness. After that, I realised that this is much much bigger than stillness or peace. This energy was really like nothing I've ever sensed before. I couldn't even call it Love. It was like some wild beast (the image of a lion came to mind) had entered the room - but even wilder and stranger than that. Utterly unnameable, unlabelable.

So in short, I'm trusting this unfolding, and aware I'm still in shallow waters with this awareness. These waters are being kind to me: gentle, forgiving, loving, soothing, cleansing. But that energy last night: it was something else. It could swallow me whole and complete. What stops me from melting into that completely?

Is it still me? Is it all the residual skins of self that are still in the process of being shed?

Is it simply that the complete dissolution of the self is an act of grace which has absolutely nothing to do with 'me'?

So yes, there is still residual doership, residual longing, residual self.

The doubt that's arising is that I have understood this deeply enough, or whether I am only half-way 'through' - half-intellectual, half-sensing? And a good dose of trust/faith.

Okay - these are all thoughts. Seeing how they've taken me back into a head-space, me-space. Time to rest and sleep now.

Thank you.

[Derek]

there is still the sense of a doer (even if an illusory one)

What is the sense of a doer made up of? At what stage in the sequence of experiences do words and concepts attach themselves to sensations?

being the witness.

Similarly, what is the actual experience that the words "being the witness" are used a label for? Do you see how words create the impression of something solid and substantial out of flickering sensations?

Is it simply that the complete dissolution of the self

Our process here has nothing to do with dissolving anything. Nothing is going to disintegrate or be destroyed as a result of this. We're just looking at what is already true.

there is still residual doership, residual longing, residual self.

How long do these dreams last for before they're known to be ephemera?

[unravelme]

there is still the sense of a doer (even if an illusory one)

What is the sense of a doer made up of?
The container of my body, the sequence of sensations, the particular response of this mind/body system to the world of experience and sensation, memories of past 'doings', imaginings of future 'doings'. Apparent choices to be made, the planning of practical actions/movements - like 'will I go for a walk this morning. no, it's raining, it's late, i can do yoga instead.' OR 'do I have time to respond to Derek's messages on my iPad before making my way to the next activity' Was that a choice? Or did it just happen. Here I am, doing it. The thought arose, and the pull was strong enough to initiate action. What creates the pull? Is it desire/interest? And if so, who desires? Who is interested? If there is no 'me', then it must be my conditioning that dictates the choices I make and the preferences I have. Does not this conditioning constitute a 'self'?

At what stage in the sequence of experiences do words and concepts attach themselves to sensations?

whenever thought arises, which happens automatically. I don't seem to have any control over that.The more presence/stillness there is, the less thoughts, or the slower they come. I'm not sure if it's possible to look upon the world without labelling it. I saw something in John's (s-p-a-c-e's) early posts about unlabelling. I don't know how to do that. If I try to unlabel then I have already begun to label. As soon as there is an 'I' trying to do anything, there are labels. But perhaps, as you are suggesting, it is the other way round? The labels come first - faster than light, faster than any choosing. Whatever I focus my eyes or other senses upon is labelled automatically. Before I can choose not to. If I'm not focussing, or what is not focussed upon disappears into the background, is sensed without conscious labelling, creates subconscious responses in my system. Like when you walk into a house that is superficially tidy and clean, but you can feel the dirt that is hidden in corners and cupboards and unseen places.

being the witness.

Similarly, what is the actual experience that the words "being the witness" are used a label for? Do you see how words create the impression of something solid and substantial out of flickering sensations?

No, I'm not convinced of this anymore. The flickering sensations are labelled pre-cognitively, subconsciously. They are labelled before I even have time to think about them consciously. They are labelled and judged. I've made up my mind whether I like or am interested in another person in one glance - long before any interior dialogue/narrative takes place. Have you read the book 'Blink'?

But yes, I can see how words/narrative make ideas seem solid and substantial: like the idea and story of self. And in this respect my consciousness has shifted dramatically. Many stories have fallen away. Most significantly the idea that my consciousness is made up of conflicting selves. I understand now that these are just thoughts that happen to conflict with each other, habitual patterns of thinking developed/conditioned over a lifetime. Much of the old inner conflict in which I once lived my life has dissolved in the last week. There is a deep understanding that 'I' am not separate from life and that by resisting life I strengthen the false psychological self - the one that has a history and a future - the one that thinks it has choices.

Is it simply that the complete dissolution of the self

Our process here has nothing to do with dissolving anything. Nothing is going to disintegrate or be destroyed as a result of this. We're just looking at what is already true.

Yes, I understand that. And I truly understand how futile the attempt to dissolve this imaginary self is - since it is non-existant in the first place. At least it has not existed in the way we imagined we existed. The self with which we identify is inextricably bound by its conditioning, most of this unconscious and cultural, but nevertheless divisive and limiting. To walk around pretending I am selfless (or have completely seen through the illusion of self), while this conditioning is still operating in the substrata of my consciousness and my reactions/responses to the world, would be utterly false and pretentious. And believe me, I've seen other spiritual teachers and so called 'enlightened' ones doing this, blind to their own hypocrisy and prejudices. And in denial of their own and others' humanity. I have grown to shun such teachings and teachers. Who is the 'I' who shuns, you might ask - it is the intelligence within me that recognises truth and falsehood, sincerity and hypocrisy. And I've had a lifetime of experiences that have sensitised me to pretence and hypocrisy. A lifetime of training in interpersonal sensitivity and intuition. As others have learnt to recognise nuances of colour or musical notes, so I have learnt to read the emotional bodies of my fellow human beings. My survival depended upon it as a child. I'm not burdened by that story anymore, but I retain the gift of what it taught me. Or you could say this mind-body system has been tuned to be very sensitive to emotional frequencies. If I identify with that as an image of myself that needs to be defended or proven, I'm making a fundamental mistake. But it would be equally dishonest to pretend those individual gifts and sensitivities are not there in each of us, or that they do not colour our interpretation and response to life.

there is still residual doership, residual longing, residual self.

How long do these dreams last for before they're known to be ephemera?

I don't know. But can you, Derek, honestly say that you are free of all doership or sense of self? Can you honestly say that you are free of any conditioning that limits and filters your interpretation of experience and that determines your reaction to it? And if you can't answer yes to the second question, then how can you possibly answer yes to the first?

I think we have to be ruthlessly honest with ourselves and each other in this enquiry. Otherwise it's just another form of self-trickery in which our ego gets to pretend it's been enlightened, having crossed some imaginary bridge, when in fact very little has changed except that we've recognised the most superficial level of our identifications as thought.There are layers and layers and layers of thought that appear as reality. I feel as though a big fat surface layer of this identified thinking has been stripped away from my personality and perception. This has created much space, stillness, a profound feeling of connection to nature and to the sacred, and most of all to my inner being.But there are many more layers of thoughts/beliefs/ideas/labelling outside the field of my awareness. And so I must confess, I am still feel a sense of self, though the weight of this self be so much lighter than my old one.

I remain profoundly grateful to you and to this forum for the opportunity and the inspiration to enquire in a supported way into the true nature of self, thought and reality. I feel as though that enquiry has just begun and I'm not ready to answer your confirmation questions. My responses might be correct, but would still contain a large component of intellectual understanding, which is not the same as direct seeing. And having had a taste of the latter seventeen years ago, and seen John's descriptions and heard others' descriptions of similar shifts, I know it is possible to go much deeper than the place from which I'm seeing the world right now.

I also recognise the futility of seeking such a shift in some imaginary future. That the only path to truth and liberation is right here NOW in the moment and by sinking deeper into the stillness/quietness of Being. I trust this more than any words that I could write to you or you could write to me, or any written process by which I could claim I've made the shift or crossed the bridge. Who can cross the bridge? Who can make the shift? Surely no-one.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

Good to meet you. :) Enjoyed the journey thus far. Particularly, the "lion" energy in the reading. Felt that in North Wales!

I feel as though a big fat surface layer of this identified thinking has been stripped away from my personality and perception. This has created much space, stillness, a profound feeling of connection to nature and to the sacred, and most of all to my inner being. But there are many more layers of thoughts/beliefs/ideas/labelling outside the field of my awareness. And so I must confess, I am still feel a sense of self, though the weight of this self be so much lighter than my old one.

Just take the next five minutes to do this with me.

Find a place to sit in a room you know well and settle for a moment.

Now, look around at the room and, one by one, if you look at something, take the label off and see it without the label - doing this for all the room, removing each and every label - moving gradually into a deeper place of not-knowing what is being seen...


Do this and share what you see.

For a bonus point, turn your not-knowing focus around 180 degrees quickly and do the same thing to "you". Apply that not-knowing to self. The room-and-you unknown.

With best wishes,
John

[unravelme]

Hi,

Good to meet you. :) Enjoyed the journey thus far. Particularly, the "lion" energy in the reading. Felt that in North Wales!

Thank you so much for assisting me with my journey. Deeply grateful to you both and to this forum community.[/color]

I feel as though a big fat surface layer of this identified thinking has been stripped away from my personality and perception. This has created much space, stillness, a profound feeling of connection to nature and to the sacred, and most of all to my inner being. But there are many more layers of thoughts/beliefs/ideas/labelling outside the field of my awareness. And so I must confess, I am still feel a sense of self, though the weight of this self be so much lighter than my old one.

Just take the next five minutes to do this with me.

Find a place to sit in a room you know well and settle for a moment.

I'm staying with friends, so the room's familiar, but not known well.

Now, look around at the room and, one by one, if you look at something, take the label off and see it without the label - doing this for all the room, removing each and every label - moving gradually into a deeper place of not-knowing what is being seen...


Do this and share what you see.

I did this today for five or ten minutes. What I see is a lot more detail. The label flattens the object I am looking at so that I don't really see it properly. When I look at it without conscious labelling, there's an awareness of more subtle details, like the reflection in the glass of the print over my bed, or variations in the colour on the walls. There is also a feeling response in my body to whatever I'm looking at - especially with natural objects, colours and certain shapes. As if I can feel the colour or the shape in my body/being, as if it's part of me or mirrors something in 'me' Or as if I am looking at part of myself that is somehow detached from me. Like now I'm looking at a wooden shelf that's attached to the wall, and it's as if I can feel its attachment to the wall, it's suspension over the floor, the shape it holds in space. And I can feel the curve of the wooden pieces that support it. There's almost a visceral response when I focus on the curves particularly. I want to label them as beautiful. It's as if they mirror some invisible absolute curve that my being somehow understands or recognises. And then when the curves end as flat planes agains the wall and the shelf, I feel the cut of that curve, the ending of it inside me, like perfection being cut short somehow.

For a bonus point, turn your not-knowing focus around 180 degrees quickly and do the same thing to "you". Apply that not-knowing to self. The room-and-you unknown.

There's an expansion that ebbs and flows with thought. Between the thoughts I seem to merge (not quite, but almost) with the shelf and the air between us. As thoughts arise again, I contract into my more ordinary sense of self and awareness, into feeling more contained within this body. It feels as though it takes a lot of effort to stay in that unlabelling state. It's easier to stay separate.

Thank you. This was very very helpful. I tried it this afternoon. But somehow, trying it again now and writing down my perceptions/sensations while doing it, helped me to go deeper. I'm glimpsing a deeper state of emptiness, of life without labels, of unknown but unified consciousness - if I can attempt to give these sensations labels.

I'll play with this some more.

With best wishes,
John

Kindest regards to you and Derek,

Nicola

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

There is also a feeling response in my body to whatever I'm looking at - especially with natural objects, colours and certain shapes. As if I can feel the colour or the shape in my body/being, as if it's part of me or mirrors something in 'me' Or as if I am looking at part of myself that is somehow detached from me. Like now I'm looking at a wooden shelf that's attached to the wall, and it's as if I can feel its attachment to the wall, it's suspension over the floor, the shape it holds in space. And I can feel the curve of the wooden pieces that support it. There's almost a visceral response when I focus on the curves particularly. I want to label them as beautiful. It's as if they mirror some invisible absolute curve that my being somehow understands or recognises. And then when the curves end as flat planes agains the wall and the shelf, I feel the cut of that curve, the ending of it inside me, like perfection being cut short somehow.

YES, you are feeling life. Excellent. No separation at all. Play some more.

As thoughts arise again, I contract into my more ordinary sense of self and awareness, into feeling more contained within this body. It feels as though it takes a lot of effort to stay in that unlabelling state. It's easier to stay separate.

Check this out. It's a labelled experience. "I contract"? See the label for what it is and see the experience without this label, let contraction be, ebb and flow - there's something, of which, contraction is made. No separation. Explore what's throughout all. And you.

Best wishes,
John

[unravelme]

YES, you are feeling life. Excellent. No separation at all. Play some more.

Still playing. There's a deepening serenity, flow, connectedness with my surroundings, with other people, with events that happen to/around me. Resistance is dropping away. Like tonight, I thought I'd found the perfect gift for my husband's birthday and then discovered it was cracked and could not be repaired in time or replaced with a suitable alternative. In the past I might have been very disappointed by this. But instead there was acceptance/surrender, without trying. Just 'oh well, and now this...' - this being entering the next moment with whatever that contained. Walking in the park tonight, the colours, sounds, shapes so vivid. Fear and memories arising when a magpie dive-bombed me a couple of times. Memories of past experiences and stories I've heard; a mild adrenalin rush and increased alertness as I walked through their domain. Stories/fears dropping away.

This shift in awareness has had a huge impact on my writing - which I've struggled with all my life. Have had times when it's flowed, but mostly there's been this fierce inner critical voice and lots of stories/ambivalence around the content of my writing - what I should and should not be writing, what it's all for anyway, whether I'll ever be able to bear to publish it. But now there's just this trust and a kind of emotional detachment that allows whatever wants to flow out to flow out. So I wrote this story yesterday about a traumatic period in my life (part of a fictionalised memoir I've been writing for fifteen years) - in the past it would have really disturbed me to write about and remember that time. But not this time. I was able to re-enter the experience as witness, showing the details of the experience - showing, not telling - without identifying with them and reactivating those emotional states in my consciousness now.

There's also surrender to the fact that I'd booked myself into these two writing workshops, originally with the intention of finishing my memoir (which has been my primary healing journey), but then after I began this process at LU, not knowing whether there'd be any interest in going there. And as the process here (on this writing retreat) is to write what comes up, I did that, without any plan or attachment to what that should be. And what is coming up, strangely enough, are the missing sections from the memoir - the most difficult parts to write about - which I've been avoiding for so many years. But here I am, and they are flowing out of me, and it's easier than it's ever been. And through it all I feel quite serene and trusting and uncritical of how it comes out. I also no longer care what happens to them - whether they are ever published or not. It doesn't seem to matter now. Thank God!

And then, I had this amazing dream last night where I found myself in a very similar situation now (in my current life) to the one I'd been in at the time of the story I wrote yesterday...about 29 years ago. I was embroiled in that situation for a year of anguish. But in my dream I resolved the same kind of situation within a matter of hours. Why? Because there were no stories, no drama, just a simple clear response which elicited a clear and simple resolution. Woke seeing so clearly how 'I' with 'my' expectations, beliefs, stories am the one who's created all the drama all my life. Without that 'I', life may be complex, but each moment is simple when met with acceptance and responsive action.

Check this out. It's a labelled experience. "I contract"? See the label for what it is and see the experience without this label, let contraction be, ebb and flow - there's something, of which, contraction is made. No separation. Explore what's throughout all. And you.

I'm going to play with this some more. Still deepening. Removing labels when I see them. But definitely still a sense of a doer/see-er/be-er. Accepting that and trusting I will 'see' when 'I' am truly ready to let go.

Thank you!

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Nicola,

YES, you are feeling life. Excellent. No separation at all. Play some more.

Still playing. There's a deepening serenity, flow, connectedness with my surroundings, with other people, with events that happen to/around me. Resistance is dropping away. Like tonight, I thought I'd found the perfect gift for my husband's birthday and then discovered it was cracked and could not be repaired in time or replaced with a suitable alternative. In the past I might have been very disappointed by this. But instead there was acceptance/surrender, without trying. Just 'oh well, and now this...' - this being entering the next moment with whatever that contained. Walking in the park tonight, the colours, sounds, shapes so vivid. Fear and memories arising when a magpie dive-bombed me a couple of times. Memories of past experiences and stories I've heard; a mild adrenalin rush and increased alertness as I walked through their domain. Stories/fears dropping away.

This shift in awareness has had a huge impact on my writing - which I've struggled with all my life. Have had times when it's flowed, but mostly there's been this fierce inner critical voice and lots of stories/ambivalence around the content of my writing - what I should and should not be writing, what it's all for anyway, whether I'll ever be able to bear to publish it. But now there's just this trust and a kind of emotional detachment that allows whatever wants to flow out to flow out. So I wrote this story yesterday about a traumatic period in my life (part of a fictionalised memoir I've been writing for fifteen years) - in the past it would have really disturbed me to write about and remember that time. But not this time. I was able to re-enter the experience as witness, showing the details of the experience - showing, not telling - without identifying with them and reactivating those emotional states in my consciousness now.

There's also surrender to the fact that I'd booked myself into these two writing workshops, originally with the intention of finishing my memoir (which has been my primary healing journey), but then after I began this process at LU, not knowing whether there'd be any interest in going there. And as the process here (on this writing retreat) is to write what comes up, I did that, without any plan or attachment to what that should be. And what is coming up, strangely enough, are the missing sections from the memoir - the most difficult parts to write about - which I've been avoiding for so many years. But here I am, and they are flowing out of me, and it's easier than it's ever been. And through it all I feel quite serene and trusting and uncritical of how it comes out. I also no longer care what happens to them - whether they are ever published or not. It doesn't seem to matter now. Thank God!

And then, I had this amazing dream last night where I found myself in a very similar situation now (in my current life) to the one I'd been in at the time of the story I wrote yesterday...about 29 years ago. I was embroiled in that situation for a year of anguish. But in my dream I resolved the same kind of situation within a matter of hours. Why? Because there were no stories, no drama, just a simple clear response which elicited a clear and simple resolution. Woke seeing so clearly how 'I' with 'my' expectations, beliefs, stories am the one who's created all the drama all my life. Without that 'I', life may be complex, but each moment is simple when met with acceptance and responsive action.

So, so, wonderful to read the shifts that you shared. :) LIke a cool breeze on a warm day.

Check this out. It's a labelled experience. "I contract"? See the label for what it is and see the experience without this label, let contraction be, ebb and flow - there's something, of which, contraction is made. No separation. Explore what's throughout all. And you.

I'm going to play with this some more. Still deepening. Removing labels when I see them. But definitely still a sense of a doer/see-er/be-er. Accepting that and trusting I will 'see' when 'I' am truly ready to let go.

Really go after that sense of a doer/see-er/be-er. :)

Look at it, sense it, feel it....!!!!



And then, see that the look-er, sense-er, feel-er, doesn't exist.

Thud.

Speak soon,
John

[unravelme]

Really go after that sense of a doer/see-er/be-er. :)

Look at it, sense it, feel it....!!!!



And then, see that the look-er, sense-er, feel-er, doesn't exist.

Thanks, John. Very busy day, so not a lot of time to really sit with this. Have to say there's definitely been some significant shift in my perception or consciousness - much more aware of where 'I' gets in the way - either in myself or in others as I listen to them. And I understand intellectually and perhaps even intuitively that 'I' is a made-up idea/character (very grateful to Derek for getting me here)....but still feel there are more layers to seeing this. No "thud" - no absolute certainty - such as I know I've felt and seen before.

Still clearing the metaphorical jungle of my mind perhaps. Like yesterday - an old pattern came up and identification with it and then the urge to defend and justify it - then I saw it (as a habitual thought pattern) and there was clarity about what to do and what to say as the identification and the defence fell away.

Kind regards,

Nicola

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Nicola,

Really go after that sense of a doer/see-er/be-er. :)

Look at it, sense it, feel it....!!!!

And then, see that the look-er, sense-er, feel-er, doesn't exist.

Thanks, John. Very busy day, so not a lot of time to really sit with this. Have to say there's definitely been some significant shift in my perception or consciousness

Excellent! Good work.

Still clearing the metaphorical jungle of my mind perhaps. Like yesterday - an old pattern came up and identification with it and then the urge to defend and justify it - then I saw it (as a habitual thought pattern) and there was clarity about what to do and what to say as the identification and the defence fell away.

Really good.

When you notice that pattern being held, and who is holding the pattern, and who is believing the pattern, is "I","Nicola" - then just see that, acknowledge it, know that it's a fiction, a thought, and release the grip in whatever way feels most natural.

Speak soon,
John

[unravelme]

s-p-a-c-e wrote:
Really go after that sense of a doer/see-er/be-er. :)

Look at it, sense it, feel it....!!!!

And then, see that the look-er, sense-er, feel-er, doesn't exist.

Woke "too" early this morning, resisted getting up, "tried" to get back to sleep. Felt tension building in body. Accepted awake state. Got up and went for walk. Looking for doer/see-er/be-er/thinker. All I can find is awareness. Awareness of thoughts, of sensations, of feelings, of looking through these eyes, of walking with these legs, of wind on these cheeks.

Mind clearing. Thoughts came up - the kinds of thoughts I might have toyed with endlessly in the past - thoughts about yesterday's reading out of my writing in the workshops, of others' responses. Thoughts that have had the habit in the past of circulating around how 'I' appear to the outside world, what others think of 'me'. Awareness sees these thoughts, sees that there is no 'me' as any entity with continuity, and the thoughts are released. Melt away. Then there is awareness again of the grass, the trees, the sky, the sound of birds. Awareness of tiredness around the eyes, a kind of heavy-liddedness. Acceptance of this.

Awareness sees also how thoughts of 'I'/'me' tend to separate 'me' from the present, from beingness. Then there is the appearance of 'me' moving through time, with a past, with a future, with choices, with regrets. Not so much regret these days those - that one has been seen through.

Blessings.