Looking for the truth

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
CarefulDog88
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:04 am

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby CarefulDog88 » Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:24 pm

Hi Frik,
If it is, what do you notice about this contraction over a day in you normal day to day?

It intensifies as the day progresses and is most intense by night time. Reacting to certain thoughts can also intensify the contraction.
It's the nature of the body to be always on the look out for danger, the contraction is this energy, this energy then gives a sense of I am, which then gives the opportunity for thought to arise, made up of fear related stories. The fear related stories then give rise to stronger contractions and the story goes on and on ( this is a very simplified account of it)
When thought is seen through as stories we let go of the attachment to the stories and the fear subsides, the contractions relax.

I'll give this again to you so you can work on the contraction.
Take some time to sit with the sensation, not in the way Vipassana prescribes to observe it, but in the way of really Being at one with it. Talk to the sensation, acknowledging its presence, thank it for appearing, let it know that it is safe and it can leave now. Show an acknowledgement to the sensations, they may pass immediately or it may take a little time, be with it for as long as it takes for it to pass, and do it as often as it appears.

Lets try this exercise.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.
Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice. Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?
Or did they kind of appeal by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences?
Or did they just pop up by themselves?
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
Have you seen this function in action?
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

User avatar
CarefulDog88
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:04 am

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby CarefulDog88 » Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:18 am

Hi Frik,
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
The content of thought is pure imagination. Yet I'm still sometimes reacting to it.
Is there an expectation that there will be no reaction to thought?

Look here:
Is there an expectation that reaction will stop happening once the illusion
is seen through?

Why would it? Just because the illusion is seen through?


There is no self even now and reactions happen, a longing for something to be one way or another
appears...
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

User avatar
Raph
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2024 10:40 pm

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby Raph » Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:37 pm

Hi Paul
Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?
Or did they kind of appeal by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
The qualities were already there in thought as I chose the two drinks. The same with the preference it was known in choosing the drinks.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
No
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
No
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
No, there was however thoughts about how I could chose the drink that is clearly not my preference and thereby exercising choice.
Have you seen this function in action?
There were thoughts suggesting that I’m exercising choice.
Is there an expectation that there will be no reaction to thought?
Yes
Look here:
Is there an expectation that reaction will stop happening once the illusion
is seen through?
Yes
Why would it? Just because the illusion is seen through?
I suppose there are thoughts suggesting that for me to experience peace the reactivity has to stop, and seeing through the illusion is key.

Thank you
Frik

User avatar
CarefulDog88
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:04 am

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby CarefulDog88 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 10:52 am

Hi Frik,
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
No, there was however thoughts about how I could chose the drink that is clearly not my preference and thereby exercising choice.
Have you seen this function in action?
There were thoughts suggesting that I’m exercising choice.
Are you thought?
As we have discovered, thought is made of stories, are these stories you?
How does thought suggest that you could make a choice that is clearly not your preference and thereby exercising choice?
What did you choose, your preference or not your preference?

So did you really have a choice or is it that, what was chosen was always going to be chosen, and there was no I or separate faculty or little man inside a control tower making a choice?

It would be beneficial for you to repeat the exercise and really Look, Relax into the body and sit with the questions and when you are 100% sure answer.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.
Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice. Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?
Or did they kind of appeal by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences?
Or did they just pop up by themselves?
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
Have you seen this function in action?
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

User avatar
Raph
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2024 10:40 pm

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby Raph » Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:40 am

Hi Paul
Are you thought?
No
As we have discovered, thought is made of stories, are these stories you?
No
How does thought suggest that you could make a choice that is clearly not your preference and thereby exercising choice?
It Can't
What did you choose, your preference or not your preference?
My preference
So did you really have a choice or is it that, what was chosen was always going to be chosen, and there was no I or separate faculty or little man inside a control tower making a choice?
What was chosen was always going to be chosen.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?
No
Or did they kind of appeal by themselves?
Yes
If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences
Or did they just pop up by themselves?
They just popped up themselves
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
No
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
No
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
No
Have you seen this function in action?
No

Thank you
Frik

User avatar
CarefulDog88
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:04 am

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby CarefulDog88 » Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:13 pm

Hi Frik,
I was just going back through our dialogue together and somethong stuck out, lets see if we can explore this a bit.
"there is no separate self in any shape or form and there never was" - what reactions come up as you read that sentence?
Since introduced to looking more closely to the idea that there is no self, I have been experiencing many uncomfortable sensations in my body leading to frustration and confusion. There is a sense that I have wasted a lot of energy going in the wrong direction. Vipassana is a pathway to dissolve the ego and hence reaching a state of no “I” and yet making such a great journey requires great effort and determination from the “I”. There is also a thought that cautions against the idea of no self as it would mean that I have never actually made any decisions in my life and are therefore not responsible for any outcomes. I do however find this notion freeing but a very strong sense of guilt does not believe that this would be fair, that there should be accountability. I can also feel many thoughts coming up in defense of my ego not wanting to let go of what I have achieved and accumulated so far.

When you read this now what comes up?
Has anything changed from the beginning of our dialogue to now?

Are the thoughts coming up that want to defend the ego and not let go of what has been achieved and accumulated so far?
Is there Guilt still appearing and to what?
Who or what is deciding fairness and accountability?
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

User avatar
Raph
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2024 10:40 pm

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby Raph » Sun Apr 21, 2024 6:55 am

Hi Paul
When you read this now what comes up?
A lot more comfortable with the idea of no separate self.
Has anything changed from the beginning of our dialogue to now?
Have definitely opened to the fact that no decisions are being made.
Are the thoughts coming up that want to defend the ego and not let go of what has been achieved and accumulated so far?
There is still ego at play but not sure what the fear is of.
Is there Guilt still appearing and to what?
Less guilt, will have to watch this more closely.
Who or what is deciding fairness and accountability?
Nothing

Thank you
Frik

User avatar
CarefulDog88
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:04 am

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby CarefulDog88 » Mon Apr 22, 2024 10:36 am

Hi Frik,

Are the thoughts coming up that want to defend the ego and not let go of what has been achieved and accumulated so far?
There is still ego at play but not sure what the fear is of.
Fear is an emotion, a thought and a feeling coming together to create a concept of the future, something is going to happen. It arises from that contracted sensation in the body and is always on guard in some degree or another, its the defense mechanism of the body. That contracted energy is what also gives rise to the sense of a separate self.
Fear is like thought, arises and passes away, until it arises again and passes away again. It has the same illusory nature as thought because it is thought.

The ego is another concept, another name for a separate self, can you find a separate autonomous ego functioning and operating Frik?


Lets try this exercise to see if we can get clarity on choice and decision.

1. Shift between letting the arm be still and move. Several times and pay close attention.

Where does the "decision", the "command" to move or stop come from?
What makes the arm move?
Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body, can you find that in direct experience?


2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

3. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

4. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

5. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

6. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

User avatar
CarefulDog88
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:04 am

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby CarefulDog88 » Mon Apr 22, 2024 11:30 am

Hi Frik,
My all time favorite pointing -
Question Everything even your answers to the questions, even the questions. Is it True?
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

User avatar
Raph
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2024 10:40 pm

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby Raph » Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:44 pm

Hi Paul

Been troubled today by thoughts insisting that I ask, what is driving/motivating me to continue on this path against resistance? If there is no choice made by an "I" what is pursuing this line of questioning?
The ego is another concept, another name for a separate self, can you find a separate autonomous ego functioning and operating Frik?
No, non that I can detect with DE.

1. Shift between letting the arm be still and move. Several times and pay close attention.
Where does the "decision", the "command" to move or stop come from?
Don't know
What makes the arm move?
Don't know
Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body, can you find that in direct experience?
No
2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?
No
3. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?
No
4. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?
No
5. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?
No
6. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
No

Thank you
Frik

User avatar
CarefulDog88
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:04 am

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby CarefulDog88 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:07 am

Been troubled today by thoughts insisting that I ask, what is driving/motivating me to continue on this path against resistance? If there is no choice made by an "I" what is pursuing this line of questioning?
Resistance is perfectly OK, the unknown always offers opportunity for resistance to arise. The fear of the unknown, once we start to recognize the resistance in the body then it's just a simple, "Oh, I'm resisting this because of the unknown, that's OK it's just this, so what its OK for it to be here".
Is there a Fear that this line of questioning will lead to something unknown?

Here is a video that may help point to resistance:

https://youtu.be/NBEn40-pIfs?si=ysvpbaViCk4wLj8t

When you watch this what comes up, what is being noticed?
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

User avatar
CarefulDog88
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:04 am

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby CarefulDog88 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:09 am

Hi Frik,
Been troubled today by thoughts insisting that I ask, what is driving/motivating me to continue on this path against resistance? If there is no choice made by an "I" what is pursuing this line of questioning?
Resistance is perfectly OK, the unknown always offers opportunity for resistance to arise. The fear of the unknown, once we start to recognize the resistance in the body then it's just a simple, "Oh, I'm resisting this because of the unknown, that's OK it's just this, so what its OK for it to be here".
Is there a Fear that this line of questioning will lead to something unknown?

Here is a video that may help point to resistance:

https://youtu.be/NBEn40-pIfs?si=ysvpbaViCk4wLj8t

When you watch this what comes up, what is being noticed?

[/quote]
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

User avatar
Raph
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2024 10:40 pm

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby Raph » Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:27 pm

Hi Paul

Sorry for the delay, I posted an answer but must have not sent it properly.
Is there a Fear that this line of questioning will lead to something unknown?
Not sure what the source of the fear is.
When you watch this what comes up, what is being noticed ?
The body relaxed a bit, focus returned to my body and the actual sensations there.

Thank You
Frik

User avatar
CarefulDog88
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:04 am

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby CarefulDog88 » Mon Apr 29, 2024 2:55 am

Hi Frik,
No problem.
A large part of what a guide does is feel into the answers that are returned and from this, what arises from the answers will indicate the course of questioning. A large part of your seeing comes from the not knowing and using that Direct Experience to discover the truth, from the body not the thinking mind. It is very helpful to be in the body without getting lost in the thought stories.

Thought stories will arise and they will pass, the sooner the stories are recognized for what they are, a passing illusion, the faster they dissolve or pass away. In the same way that Vipassana meditation sees the sensations as arising and passing away, the thought stories do the same. When you have the attachment to the sensation this keeps your attention on it, and where the attention goes is where the energy flows. For example, I remember being on the 10-day courses and sitting for the 1 hr sessions and being in so much pain with such resistance to what was actually happening. All my attention was on this pain, the pain was the attachment, and it wasn't until I realized that the pain was my stories, and it was all thought telling its pain story, once I had this realization and relaxed into the body and sat in the immediacy of the sensation then the pain resolved itself. This is the same process as thought, thought is a reality and it won't disappear because you see through the self-illusion, but you recognize the thought stories as the illusion, and this allows for the thought to resolve itself and move on, without taking a hold on your attention and creating the suffering (duhka).
Is there a Fear that this line of questioning will lead to something unknown?
Not sure what the source of the fear is.
The Thought Story is the source of Fear, you can SENSE into this when you feel Fear, put your thought stories to the side and sense into the body see what arises in Direct Experience see if there is a little autonomous 'Fear' man jumping up and down saying be fearful, or is it just a body sensation being identified by thought and then labeled with a story as to why it's there.

When you ask, "If there is no choice made by an "I" what is pursuing this line of questioning?"
This is thought story.
Does there need to be an "I" to pursue a line of questioning?
there is opportunity to expand this answer and look a little deeper, see if there is an insight, this question is actually quite paradoxical.
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

User avatar
Raph
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2024 10:40 pm

Re: Looking for the truth

Postby Raph » Mon Apr 29, 2024 12:37 pm

Hi Paul
When you ask, "If there is no choice made by an "I" what is pursuing this line of questioning?"
This is thought story.
Does there need to be an "I" to pursue a line of questioning?
No, the thought stories are driving the questioning, creating doubt and an illusionary explanation for the discomfort in my body.


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 69 guests