make higher valleys

[repete]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
the world is real.
our perception of the world is not real.
our sense organs feed our perception.
it creates the illusion of a separate self.
once this self learns to relax, everything simply is.

What are you looking for at LU?
to cultivate right view and be firmly established in it.
to receive help in reducing oscillation from leftover stuff.
to work with a guide such that one can hold oneself accountable and report sincerely and openly on one's own self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
to prune falseness / self-deception of all kind.
to relax. to receive help in seeing things as they are. to identify and weed out contractions that are leftover. to receive open and sincere, pointing out instructions.

I am on a progressive path and am doing what is needed to polish the mirror. Now need help from a genuine guide to point out clearly.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
1. Progressive Path - Sri Vidya Practicioner under a Trika - Kali - Kaula Sampradaya based out of South India

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[repete]

Can a guide please assist me when possible?

[Magdalena]

Hello, Repete (is this what you want me to call you, or some other name?),

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed and thank you for waiting. My name is Magdalena and I can assist you if you like.

So, to begin with, let’s get over a couple of formalities.
Please confirm that you’ve read and are OK with the following:
1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which we will need in our conversation: viewtopic.php?t=660


Tell me, how does the separate self/”me” show up in your daily life?

[repete]

Hi Magdalena,

Thank you for your willingness to guide me.

I confirm that I have read the Disclaimer, T&Cs and FaQs and have watched the video on the Quote function.

Repete (is this what you want me to call you, or some other name?)

You can call me Pete

Tell me, how does the separate self/”me” show up in your daily life?

1. It shows up as the thinker of my thoughts and the feeler of my feelings.

2. It shows up in response to the fear and anxiety that rises around my family, mine and their future and regret/shame about my actions in the past. It shows up when something forms a selective grip around parts of my daily experience to create a narrative.

3. When I investigate further, and relax this grip, I see there is no actual hand or position for this grip. That it is simply a lie. I see that all this noise is just one thought reflecting off another, endlessly.

4. I smile but soon enough this seeing goes away and once again a veil falls over. I investigate that, to find that even that is a thought. And in this way, I keep deconstructing this self as it shows up gripping my sensory and emotional experience selectively, to create stories.

5. But this process is not consistent and steady. Often losing and gaining clarity, which creates a deep sense of longing to rip something nonexistent off and tear the whole thing down. Thought what it is, I do not know.

[Magdalena]

Hello there, Pete,

Nice to meet you. ;-)

It shows up as the thinker of my thoughts and the feeler of my feelings.

How do you know that the self/“me” is the thinker of your thoughts and the feeler of your feelings?
Can you provide any evidence for that?

Also, what makes you think these thoughts and feelings are “yours”?
Do you create them?
Do you make them come?
Do you manage them?
Own them?
Control them?
Can you predict the next one that comes?
Can you choose to have only pleasant or unpleasant ones?
Can you keep some forever, or get rid of others for good?

It shows up in response to the fear and anxiety that rises around my family, mine and their future and regret/shame about my actions in the past. It shows up when something forms a selective grip around parts of my daily experience to create a narrative.

I hear you.
How do you know that the narratives that keep spinning in your head are trustworthy?
That they are to be believed?
That they require reactions, like fear or anxiety?


What makes you think you can control your future?

What makes you think you could control your past (i.e. do things differently?)


I know that’s a lot. Please consider each question carefully and answer all of them.

[repete]

How do you know that the self/“me” is the thinker of your thoughts and the feeler of your feelings?

The self appears as the (apparent) thinker of thoughts.
I see that even this is a thought.

I do not create thoughts.
Thoughts are not "mine".
They come and go at will.
Often in response to sensory / external input.
Other times in response to another thought.

I cannot manage my thoughts.
I cannot control them.
I cannot predict their arrival and departure.
I cannot choose the nature of my thoughts.
I cannot hold on to or push away any thought.

The narratives in my head are seen to be false.
I do not believe them but are pulled into them from time to time.
Often a physical sensation either leads / follows a thought.
I am yet to see how this works clearly.
Feeling first followed by thought or vice versa.

I can sincerely report that thoughts and feelings around my family and our future keep me tethered to this false loop. I see it from time to time clearly for what it is but th seeing is yet to fully make the illusion fall away.

But I can see the distance it has created, allowing me to watch the feeling rise in its entirety, watching the thoughts show up and do their thing, sensing all the consequent discomfort and just looking at it for what it is.

I then ask myself, to whom is this happening.

When I look for him, I see he is nowhere to be found.

This then produces a relaxation.

But before long, it is pulled back into identification with another, more creative rendition of a thought structure and again the gently wading out, step by step, happens.

How does one stabilise in this seeing, is a question I have from my side.
Do let me know, what you see, from your end.

Thank you.

[repete]

it comes and goes, this seeing and this relaxation.
i can see that somewhere, something fundamental I'm missing.
I may perhaps be moving too fast through my inquiry.
please guide me on this front.

if I had to slow down and really look, I can report

that i watch the movement of thought and feeling within me,
ask myself who is this or what is this...

...and I see the 'me' looking over from 'here' at 'that' over 'there,
... i relax, the distance collapses
... it opens up
... continuous, seamless
... as is

but I'm pulled back...
...the shape repapears and so does the distance.

this brings up the thought
'you're missing a step'
'you're moving too fast'
'you need to slow down'
'you're missing something'

I watch this and I see clearly.
It is this "you" that is holding this entire chain or loop together.

so I get back to,
who is this
what is this

and again I see

a. The thing over there
b. The me over here
c. The distance between the two
d. The falsity of all three (all made by some phantom movement)

i relax. collapse.

The sameness of it all becomes so beautiful.
The quiet, clear and simple.

but I'm pulled back...
...the shape repapears and so does the distance.

[Magdalena]

Morning, Pete,

Thanks for your replies.

The self appears as the (apparent) thinker of thoughts.
I see that even this is a thought.

That’s right.

I do not create thoughts…. I cannot hold on to or push away any thought.

That’s right. This cannot be done.

The narratives in my head are seen to be false.
I do not believe them but are pulled into them from time to time.

The moment you believe the narrative is when you get pulled in.

That’s why it’s helpful to try and maintain an alertness to any b/s appearing on the thought horizon (if such a thing exists – just metaphorically). You recognise it by the fact that some pretty strong emotion arrives – fear or anxiety, or even what is normally labelled as positive, like excitement and the like. When this happens, check for a narrative spinning. Realise it’s but a narrative, a voice talking, a stream of thoughts which are not even yours. They come from and go to who knows where, right? But the longer they stay (i.e. are believed and followed), the more havoc they cause.

Often a physical sensation either leads / follows a thought.
I am yet to see how this works clearly.

Feeling first followed by thought or vice versa.
So look into this when an opportunity arises and tell me what you find.

I can sincerely report that thoughts and feelings around my family and our future keep me tethered to this false loop.

Tell me one thing that you have control over right now, one thing that you had control over in the past, and one thing you sure will have control over in future. One of each.

But I can see the distance it has created, allowing me to watch the feeling rise in its entirety, watching the thoughts show up and do their thing, sensing all the consequent discomfort and just looking at it for what it is.

That’s the way to go.

But before long, it is pulled back into identification with another, more creative rendition of a thought structure and again the gently wading out, step by step, happens.

That’s why it’s so important to remain alert to this happening as much as possible.
I like to respond to thought content (what thoughts say) the way you respond to a drunk at a bus stop. The drunk is mumbling their stream of invectives towards whoever is there to listen, but you go “So what?” and step away. The drunk keeps talking, right? Who cares.

From a distance, it’s easier to laugh at all those dramatic scenarios most of which never happen. If the drunk is too much of a pain in the ass, you might fling back an invective in response before stepping away. If genuinely amused, blow a mental kiss towards the drunk and whatever is being said.

Find your own ways to deal with the thought b/s. They don’t need to be “spiritual” or inquiry-based (“who”/”what”) – the mind chatter is not at all spiritual, is it? More like a drunk at a bus stop (in my experience). Do whatever works to outsmart that mind chatter. Experiment. See what works best for you. Laughter is certainly a good medicine, considering that the thought stream provides a neverending source of entertainment for life. Seriously. I’ve been at this for like four decades, and still get fooled sometimes. So what?

How does one stabilise in this seeing, is a question I have from my side.

“One” doesn’t (can the one who stabilises in this seeing be found? 😉)
it comes and goes, this seeing and this relaxation.
Watching this short video may help clarify some things for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w&t=5s

i can see that somewhere, something fundamental I'm missing.

Tell me about what Pete’s life will be like when nothing is missing any more.
What will change?
What will remain the same?
What will be gained?
What will be lost? (Please look into and answer all these questions)

ask myself who is this or what is this...

That’s the kinds of questions that no one knows answers to.
We don’t know who this is.
We don’t know what this is.
Is this a problem for Pete?



'

you're missing a step'
'you're moving too fast'
'you need to slow down'
'you're missing something'

Can you see that this is yet another thought story?
Why not laugh at it and let it mumble its plotline in a distance?
Who cares what it’s got to say about anything?
Does it know about anything?
Does it come with any kind of authority to be listened to with reverence - like it could know anything? ;-)

It is this "you" that is holding this entire chain or loop together.

Right.
What is this “me” made of?
Look. Don’t go to concepts and theories. Look in and see.

The falsity of all three (all made by some phantom movement)

Yes.

The sameness of it all becomes so beautiful.
The quiet, clear and simple.

Yes.

but I'm pulled back...
...the shape repapears and so does the distance.

Do you seriously expect this to last 24/7?
How would you shave, work, drive, pay your bills, etc. then?


Warmly,