I am here because I couldn't not have been

[Kalyani]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I read the book Gateless Gatecrashers twice and I seem to mentally grasp the concept of “no self”. But i always feel like I need to remind myself of it or think about it in order to see it again. So I suspect I didn’t truly “see” it yet.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to see that there is no self. I feel like I need one-on-one help since after reading the book and asking myself all the questions from the book, I still feel like my attention wanders and needs someone else there to ask the questions so I can focus properly and be accountable to look. I’d describe myself as a tired long-time seeker.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am expecting to be asked questions that i will be accountable to answer. I expect that i will be guided along until I am able to see that there is no self and continue to be able to see/know it without trying.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Feels like I’ve been inquiring forever. A lot of reading on the topic. Deep study of yoga. Holographic coaching certification. Always looking for something, like I can’t rest until I’ve come to understand something.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[warissem]

Hi

I am glad to walk a bit with you to help you see through the illusion of a separate self.

There are some rules to agree with, before starting our dialog :

Read the disclaimer text here
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books, videos about this investigation.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Best wishes

Warissem

[Kalyani]

Hi Warissem,

I am very happy that you have taken this on and I am excited for our exchange. Thank you!

How will life change?

I guess it depends on what is meant by life. If life means my current home, family, job and overall circumstances - I think those will not change in any sudden drastic way. They will continue to change in the same way that everything is always changing.

How will you change?

Maybe some of the familiar thought patterns that I experience will change or disappear. I also imagine that there will be some changes in emotional states. Honestly, I imagine less fear/anxiety and more joyful states.

What will be different?

There will be a sense of lightness and wonder sort of behind everything that is being experienced. Almost like amusement about things that happen instead of the constant evaluating about what things that happen mean for the construct of "me".

I think now there are these mental steps that happen when something happens: event occurs, evaluation happens of how that event fits into the life of the "me" character, then a reaction in the form of other thought and emotions that match the "me" character. All this happens very fast. I imagine what might be different, is that there is a more of a focus on the immediate reality, without this convoluted process I just described above. Everything more simple and wondrous to just experience moments.

What is missing?

I understand that nothing could possibly be missing. Everything already is what it is, it can't be missing a piece. Maybe I can answer: what makes me search for something? I'd say thoughts that there is another experience that's better than the one being lived now.

[Kalyani]

Thinking more about all of these questions. I think i definitely believe that something will change for the better. There will be more peace, more freedom, more wisdom, more good stuff and less bad stuff like fears, unproductive thoughts, unpleasant states etc. There are also thoughts that I will find out the truth, and knowing the truth will be better than not knowing it. There is also a hope there that somehow it will feel empowering to be liberated.

[warissem]

Hi

I am very happy that you have taken this on and I am excited for our exchange. Thank you!

I am glad to be with you.

I guess it depends on what is meant by life. If life means my current home, family, job and overall circumstances - I think those will not change in any sudden drastic way. They will continue to change in the same way that everything is always changing.

Yes but how about life as existence ?

Maybe some of the familiar thought patterns that I experience will change or disappear. I also imagine that there will be some changes in emotional states. Honestly, I imagine less fear/anxiety and more joyful states.

These could be realistic expecatations.

There will be a sense of lightness and wonder sort of behind everything that is being experienced. Almost like amusement about things that happen instead of the constant evaluating about what things that happen mean for the construct of "me".

It could be so or not. It is better to put aside this kind of expectations.

I understand that nothing could possibly be missing. Everything already is what it is, it can't be missing a piece.

Yes, good point.

Maybe I can answer: what makes me search for something? I'd say thoughts that there is another experience that's better than the one being lived now.

Don’t expect a change in experience. The change will be in the knowing “where you are seeing from”. By the way, where are you seeing from?

Thinking more about all of these questions. I think i definitely believe that something will change for the better. There will be more peace, more freedom, more wisdom, more good stuff and less bad stuff like fears, unproductive thoughts, unpleasant states etc. There are also thoughts that I will find out the truth, and knowing the truth will be better than not knowing it. There is also a hope there that somehow it will feel empowering to be liberated.

By now, I invite you to leave aside all these expectations. Don’t put in the future what is here now.

Having said that, I invite you to be committed to this thread 24/7. When I give you a pointer (a question or an exercise) be with it for a day long and LOOK AT what is arising as thoughts, bodily sensations, emotions, … before giving the answer. The answer MUST be a visceral certainty for you. Example : what is the color of the sky right now?
You can guess the answer, you can answer through memory or after having looked at the sky and see its color. The true answer is known through the senses : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations. Thoughts are used only to communicate. If you are clear about the meaning of a TRUE ANSWER, we can go ahead. If not I will give you some exercises to clarify things.

Best wishes

[Kalyani]

Yes but how about life as existence ?

I think life as existence will change somehow. Like there was a piece of life - “me” that saw/interpreted/thought in one way and then that seeing/perception/interpretation by this piece of life will change.

By the way, where are you seeing from?

I am not sure how to answer. Right now I am seeing cars and some trees and buildings. The eyes are conveying information to the brain which interprets visuals based on past experiences. I cant answer where this seeing is from. I can’t find where it is from, like there isn’t a point of origination of it. I know I can’t really stop seeing. It is always happening as long as I’m awake.

The true answer is known through the senses : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations. Thoughts are used only to communicate. If you are clear about the meaning of a TRUE ANSWER, we can go ahead.

I’m not 100% sure. You said it’s known by the senses. How about emotions? Aren’t there many things that we can’t know through the senses because they are emotions/thoughts? Aren’t they real too? Maybe I need some help with this.

[warissem]

Hi

I think life as existence will change somehow. Like there was a piece of life - “me” that saw/interpreted/thought in one way and then that seeing/perception/interpretation by this piece of life will change.

Now let this sink in : there is no me in any shape or form, there nerver was, it will never be.
What is coming up as thoughts, bodily sensations, whatever ?

I am not sure how to answer. Right now I am seeing cars and some trees and buildings.

Are you really doing the seeing or is it just happening?

The eyes are conveying information to the brain which interprets visuals based on past experiences.

Do you agree that this answer is not given through direct experience ?

I cant answer where this seeing is from. I can’t find where it is from, like there isn’t a point of origination of it. I know I can’t really stop seeing. It is always happening as long as I’m awake.

Yes, is there an "I" which is awake?

I’m not 100% sure. You said it’s known by the senses. How about emotions? Aren’t there many things that we can’t know through the senses because they are emotions/thoughts? Aren’t they real too? Maybe I need some help with this.

Yes, you get the point. Feelings = sensations+thoughts (labels)
Emotions = sensations (energy movements in the body) + thoughts (labels).

As you noticed it, there are senses appearances, feelings, sensations, thoughts.
Is there a KNOWER of all of these objects? LOOK

Best for you

[Kalyani]

What is coming up as thoughts, bodily sensations, whatever ?

This question has been bothering me. I keep thinking there is a unique body. There are thoughts perceived through the unique brain in that body, there are emotions felt in that body and not some other body. So the body/thoughts/feelings/sensations are tied together. They sort of belong to each other. So it’s seems to be a bundle of things that’s unique and different from other body/thoughts/feelings entities out there. Could this unique bundle be “me”?

Another thought that came up today: if I let it sink in there is no me. Thoughts come up that then there will be nothing to search for, nothing to discover and that it would be boring and pointless to exist….hmmm

Are

you really doing the seeing or is it just happening?

It is definitely just happening on its

Do you agree that this answer is not given through direct experience ?

Yes I agree and understand.

As you noticed it, there are senses appearances, feelings, sensations, thoughts.
Is there a KNOWER of all of these objects? LOOK

I’m having trouble with saying there isn’t a knower. Someone “me”, knows that these thoughts happen. Another person I see beside me isn’t aware of my thoughts. But they are aware of their thoughts. It feels like there is someone in there who watches and experiences.

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

This question has been bothering me. I keep thinking there is a unique body. There are thoughts perceived through the unique brain in that body, there are emotions felt in that body and not some other body. So the body/thoughts/feelings/sensations are tied together. They sort of belong to each other. So it’s seems to be a bundle of things that’s unique and different from other body/thoughts/feelings entities out there. Could this unique bundle be “me”?

Are you a thought?
Are you an emotion?
Are you a sensation or a body?

Another thought that came up today: if I let it sink in there is no me. Thoughts come up that then there will be nothing to search for, nothing to discover and that it would be boring and pointless to exist….hmmm

You are right, nothing to search for but only thought says "it would be boring and pointless to exist"

Are you really doing the seeing or is it just happening?

It is definitely just happening on its

on its own, yes.

I’m having trouble with saying there isn’t a knower. Someone “me”, knows that these thoughts happen.

Can you describe this someone "me"?

Another person I see beside me isn’t aware of my thoughts. But they are aware of their thoughts.

Is it a direct experience or just stories?

It feels like there is someone in there who watches and experiences.

Where is it( the watcher) located?

Don't forget to look at direct experience before giving the answers.

Best for you

[Kalyani]

Are you a thought?
Are you an emotion?
Are you a sensation or a body?

No to all three. But what is bothering me is that those three make a unique combination of physical appearance/thought patterns/emotional patterns/memories that I can clearly see. Like the example of a school not existing but the building/students/teachers existing, the “me”
might not exist, but the components making up a unique observable entity do exist. So what/who is that entity?

Can you describe this someone "me"?

No I can’t. I can only describe the body, which is a component of this “me”, the rest is unseen and intangible.

Is it a direct experience or just stories?

I see how it is just stories.

Where is it( the watcher) located?

It’s not located in the body, body is a bunch of flesh and bones.
It’s not located in the thoughts, because it can watch the thoughts/can notice them, so it’s outside of them.
It’s also not located in the emotions because it is aware of them.
I don’t know where it is. But it seems something is aware of the body/thoughts/emotions. What is this something?

[warissem]

Hi Kaylani

We are going to look at this "something".
Are you aware of these words on the screen or is there something (which you are seeking for) aware instead ?

Just LOOK and be 100% honest in your answer.

Best for you

[Kalyani]

We are going to look at this "something".
Are you aware of these words on the screen or is there something (which you are seeking for) aware instead ?

Hi, this made me laugh. When I looked there clearly isn’t a someone aware and I also do see how there isn’t a me who is aware. There is awareness, that’s it. I see it and I’ve seen it before and it feels very expansive. But it’s like then I forget and narrow down again. I guess I have an expectation that once I see I can’t unsee and everything will be different. But that’s not how it goes. I have the moments of seeing and then it’s like I forget. Does that make sense?

[warissem]

Good evening

Hi, this made me laugh. When I looked there clearly isn’t a someone aware and I also do see how there isn’t a me who is

aware. There is awareness, that’s it.

Yes, there is knowing = being aware (awareness). It is intimate, ordinary. There is no more to it.

I see it and I’ve seen it before and it feels very expansive.

There is no you to see it. It recognizes itself by itself, it needs no agent.

But it’s like then I forget and narrow down again

.
This is known as thoughts, do you agree?

I guess I have an expectation that once I see I can’t unsee and everything will be different.

yes, when it is seen it cannot be unseen. Things don't change.

But that’s not how it goes. I have the moments of seeing and then it’s like I forget. Does that make sense?

Yes, I invite you to watch this :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

Are they YOUR thoughts?

Is there a separate entity behind the word "I", me?

Best for you

[Kalyani]

This is known as thoughts, do you agree?

Yes, I agree. It is very common be totally focused on them. But I guess this total focusing on them also just happens by itself.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

No, thoughts flow uncontrollably and the focusing on them/getting lost in them is also uncontrollable and just happens without a director.

Are they YOUR thoughts?

No, but it seems all of them that appear are about "me" the character.

Is there a separate entity behind the word "I", me?

There is a character made up from a bundle of thoughts. The character is a bunch of thoughts about a character.

[warissem]

Hi

I invite you to do this exercise to be definitively clear about thoughts.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Waiting for your insights, give time to each question and SEE the answer.

Best for you