Questioning

[Fiji]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The belief of a self is not real?

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to see without a doubt that there is "no real, inherent , self" as written as the first question in this section. If there is no real, inherent self than who is the one asking this question and answering and typing inside this answer box?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
The conversation has not begun so how can I know what to expect. Okay, I want to see clearly, without any doubts there is no "real, inherent self, and that concepts, ideas, opinions, beliefs, assumptions, are not to be taken seriously and they are just to be taken as thoughts created by the mind.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Yoga, meditation, vedanta.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Hi

I am glad to walk a bit with you to help you see through the illusion of a separate self.

There are some rules to agree with, before starting our dialog :

Read the disclaimer text here
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books, videos about this investigation.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Best wishes

Warissem

[Fiji]

Interesting 4 Questions Warissem.

!. How will life change? I really don't know

2. How will I change? There won't be the nagging question regarding if a real, inherent self exists within the body or if it's only a fictitious story my mind thinks. I don't know if this makes sense? I have a tendency to question everything.

3. What will be different? Hopefully, there will be less doubt.

4. What is missing? I don't know.

[warissem]

Hi Fiji

Let's begin here :

I would like to see without a doubt that there is "no real, inherent , self" as written as the first question in this section. If there is no real, inherent self than who is the one asking this question and answering and typing inside this answer box?

I invite you to give the answer to your question. I just show you to SEE the answer.
During our dialog, I'll give you questions and exercises (which are pointers). Then you LOOK AT the question then SEE the answer with one or more of the five senses : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations. Thoughts are used only to communicate. Example : what is the color of the sky right now? You can guess the answer or give it from memory OR you open the window and LOOK AT the sky and SEE (or KNOW for sure) the answer. In the same manner, I invite you to LOOK AT this "who" (in your question) till you SEE the answer then come back with what is seen.

Best for you

[Fiji]

"Fiji" is the one reading and answering the question. Looked out the window today and the sky is a light blue.

[warissem]

Hi Fiji

"Fiji" is the one reading and answering the question.

Let's look at Fiji, what is it in direct experience ?

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

Best wishes

[Fiji]

Okay, let me break down this activity of taking a walk outdoors on a sunny, and windy day.

Saw sunshine so sight here
Felt sunshine - sensation
saw branches blowing -sight
Felt the wind on the face - sensation
Dogs barking behind a fenced yard - hearing, solid wood fence so did not see dogs only heard
Neighbor cooking on his outdoor grill -- sight and smell
Thinking it smells good -- thought

Returned home and made a tuna melt sandwich

Saw the Multigrain bread/ sight
Toasted the bread / sight and smell
Opened can of tuna fish with electric can opener/ sight, sound and smell
Placed cheese on toasted bread after draining water from tuna can/ sight, and smell
Placed the sandwich in the microwave for 30 seconds to melt the cheese / sight, hearing the microwave, smelling the sandwich
Thought of eating the sandwich/ thinking, but it was too hot to eat/ touch/sensation
Decided to let it cool down/ thought
Ate the sandwich/ taste and sight
So, Fiji is the person who experienced thru direct contact.

[warissem]

Hi Fiji

So, Fiji is the person who experienced thru direct contact.

You have done the exercise and as you can see, in direct experience there is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations). Thoughts are here as labels or descriptions of what is going on.

Having said that, what is Fiji, what is a person in direct experience, outside of thoughts?

Best for you

[Fiji]

What is Fiji? A word, letters, a label

What is a person in direct experience? An observer/watcher/ one who witnesses

What is a person outside of thoughts? Nothing, without thoughts

[warissem]

Hi Fiji

There is an exercise to make you familiar with direct experience.

Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. If not you can take another fruit.

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Give answers to all questions in blue.

Use the quote function as said in the first post.

Best for you

[Fiji]

In your previous reply you defined "Actual Experience" as sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation. Yes, thought is something ABOUT something, agree.

Anyway, highlighted in blue of your reply is "Is there really an "apple here, or only color and a thought ABOUT "apple"? Can "apple" be found in actual experience?

Answer : No there really is no object here, only color and thought of "apple". Apple can't be found in actual experience.

2nd question by you : However, is an apple actually known? Answer: Yes, it can be known thru Actual experience and yes, I do have this piece of fruit, called "apple" in front of me which I am experiencing by taste, sight, smell, Thought (juicy), sensation, sound of biting into apple.

Best Wishes to You Too

[warissem]

Hi Fiji

2nd question by you : However, is an apple actually known? Answer: Yes, it can be known thru Actual experience and yes, I do have this piece of fruit, called "apple" in front of me which I am experiencing by taste, sight, smell, Thought (juicy), sensation, sound of biting into apple.

Direct experience is not clear for you, yet. The experience of the apple is taste, sight, smell, texture, eventually sound. OK.
Is an apple experienced in direct experience or is it just a label?

Here is an exercise to clarify more about DE.

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Best for you

PS : use the quote function : select each question then push the "quote" button above. Use this video to learn how to do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

[Fiji]

Yes they are labels, and labels are merely words. Going back and forth reading posts such as these is confusing and since reading something can be misinterpreted I misunderstood what you were expressing. There's no point in pursuing this topic any further. The interest is no longer with me. Thank you for your time!


All the Best to You!

[warissem]

Hi Fiji

I wish you the best

[Fiji]

I wish you the same!