ISO The Guide which Resonates

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

FINAL QUESTIONS

Here are the final questions. Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?


5) Describe decision and give examples from experience.

Describe intention and give examples from experience.

Describe free will and give examples from experience.

Describe choice and give examples from experience.

Describe control and give examples from experience.


6) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your experience.


7) What makes things happen? How does it work?


8) Anything to add

[72457245]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No. No. Only thoughts about an I, me and self if that may count as a shape or form.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It very closely tied to thought or it is a pattern of thoughts. A series of beliefs/thoughts/patterns that basically say there's a little me IN THERE that can make things stable and have some control in this crazy world. I don't know when it started and/or how it works, only more thoughts, things I have read. But it seems like it rises up to either say "this isn't good enough" or "you're not good enough" most commonly. Other times it seems to like defending "itself". If thought is not engaged, there is no self that I can find, therefore the self that I CAN find must only be thoughts. Even these thoughts about that are just thoughts and not direct experience in a way.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It does not seem like a such a big deal, or that is has not been fully realized but those are just more thoughts. To feel it, I don't know! I think there is a bit of a shift or relief but it is very subtle, more blankness. I would think if we time warped me back to where I was months ago, I could more easily articulate the difference in feeling. It must be less stressful this. Perhaps this has all been very gradual. There is a certain feeling in the silence though, that when the discomfort of the selfing-thoughts come up, it is also somehow different than before. The knowing that they are just thoughts, not me, is a different feeling somehow. When I write that it sounds like a thought.... but it is a little more than that, because in the silence, it also seems a bit different somehow. Also the thoughts are much less sticky or rampant and they just seem to drop off like a ghost. Even thoughts are not taking the thoughts so seriously if that makes any sense. There is some doubt of the seeing of this, but then it is immediately seen that this is just a THOUGHT, to no one. And there is a certain peace right after that.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

I think it was in the SOUND gate exercise... when I went from there to the seeing exercise I left the music on. When I was seeing the screen, it appeared and when I asked if there was a self who was looking, there was sort of a frustration with the noise of the thought.... "who is seeing?". Any it came to be seen that in that moment of seeing, only a thought could create a separation, an I, a me or ANYTHING that could be spoken about, typed about or THOUGHT about. And in the blank of no thought, it was seen that there can be no such imagined self there whatsoever. It seems like logic when I write it and maybe it's just that simple or maybe there is something being missed. But thought can just be any bullshit and generally is - there is no knowing really, just ideas/opinions. So if a me is just a thought because it's not showing up in any other capacity, me if there actually is one, is also seen to be totally bullshit, an idea/opinion. Even that is a thought I know, but somehow the thought did trick the thought (I THINK). Lol this must sound very thinky. Anyway,

Thought = made up stuff
In No thought = No DE of a self whatsoever
Self in DE = Unknown, unfindable, and only seems to turn up in thought.
Therefore, self=made up stuff

5) Describe decision and give examples from experience.

Decisions happen. Maybe there is thinking about things before decisions happen that influence decisions. But the decision is not made by a "final decider". Thoughts are happening to type this but I cannot find a thinker. Decision happens to type this but I cannot find a decider. It's just happening. On a decision to say, have back surgery... thoughts about that can arise in terms of pro/cons/risks etc., and there is a decision that is made. But there is not a someone making it. It just turns into thoughts and then I don't really know how the final moment of decision happens, maybe it's brain chemicals, multiplicity of events arising producing variables a certain way, past conditioning and a decision is made. I don't know how decision is actually made but it isn't made by an imaginary thought called self!

Describe intention and give examples from experience.

Intention is planning it seems like. Planning can happen. I plan to meet my business partner for a meeting in the morning, but this is just thoughts and circumstances all coming together, not an intention that is made by a "someone".

Describe free will and give examples from experience.

Free will is the ability to "do whatever I want". But without an "I", free will doesn't really make sense. It could be changed to "do whatever thoughts want"... but I guess that's not free will anymore. Choices happen, but there is no chooser. Typing is happening but nobody chose to type it. It was just thoughts that came from the thing before, that came from the thing before... brain chemicals, genetics, I don't know really, this is all just THOUGHTS. I can't think of examples of free will.

Describe choice and give examples from experience.

Really the same as above. Choice is a label on some actions.

Describe control and give examples from experience.
Control can be exerted but there is no controller, only thoughts about control, actions that seem to control, thoughts that label actions as control. Control is perhaps a thought label about a pattern of actions/thoughts. A concept, a belief.

6) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your experience.

This is hard to answer. It doesn't really compute. Everything and nothing? Maybe there is a responsibility for my children but it doesn't seem like I am responsible for them. More like responsibility happens. Actions happen. In terms of responsibility as it relates to blame, there is nobody to blame for anything. Maybe that is just a thought. There is confusion thoughts, to no one and a thought that these thoughts aren't going to get to the bottom of this, and they don't need to because they aren't referring to anyone. Then blank.

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

Your answers are very clear, but you missed the last two questions. Please will you complete and then I will pass on.

Love,

Rowena

[72457245]

Oops sorry about that.

7) What makes things happen? How does it work?

I don't know.

8) Anything to add

If I am not a pile of thoughts, there is a thought that wonders what I am or if it is even worth re-developing a concept of "I" of which to define somehow (BY THOUGHTS AGAIN because how else would this be done). Better just to leave it a mystery because it seems that no thought is going to be able to solve and/or express THIS. While it seems like this process has shown me what I am not, I'm not entirely sure it has shown me what I am, but seems like just resting with what has been discovered is plenty. It is weird because I will be using "I" in practical use such as typing this referring to myself, but I don't really know what that is referring to anymore! I guess for practical usage it is just "this body/mind" for now. Since these are just typed thoughts, they are an expression of the mind/thought. So for practical usage, I guess that is what "I" is. What's typing this to you? A body, thoughts. What owns that? Nothing I can find. Practical Usage I = Body/mind. Definitive I = Unknown.

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

Thank you for your answers. Another guide has asked:

Can you say more about how seeing has affected and is affecting your relationships?

Can you say more about how it effects thoughts and feeling about you, when they are there?

Can you say more about how seeing affects your relationship with life?

With love,

Rowena

[72457245]

Can you say more about how seeing has affected and is affecting your relationships?

Can you say more about how it effects thoughts and feeling about you, when they are there?

Can you say more about how seeing affects your relationship with life?

Well, this was already happening before but I think it's continuing to develop. That reactivity is just plummeting. Things that used to piss me off, just don't, though there is sort of a ghost of reactions sometimes. There is very little internal chatter about others or me. Very little thought about past narratives. So with others, there is a lot more "tolerance" than there was before. Nobody can be blamed for anything since there isn't anybody there. I rarely seem to have thoughts and feelings about myself other than ones about seeking/restlessness that are quickly just seen as "thoughts" and thoughts about "myself" is just not making sense right now in general. How seeing affects my relationship with life - I don't know! It is all sort of unfolding... it is a bit hard to process/articulate at the moment. There is no me, there is just life happening.

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

Thanks for the answer to the final questions. You have passed through the gateless gate!! :)

You will be receiving an email with confirmation from Nerina Vaughan with an invitation to join the LU Facebook community and other post-gate information.

Below here is a list of useful videos, websites and also zoom groups for your info.

It has been a pleasure to be your guide. Love, Rowena


AFTER CARE

An admin will contact you with an invitation to the LU FB group.

It is good to keep inquiring and clarifying this, as this is just the beginning.

If you ever have any questions, you can always ask anyone on the FB group, or reach out to me.

Below are some excellent resources for further exploration. Go with what resonates?

Simply Awake app - Free app for your phone that contains dozens of meditation that will help you to keep looking deeper.

Also a great video from Angelo Dilullo on this process and how it deepens on its own, if not resisted,
YouTube: Simply Always Awake "Self and No-Self"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X_Xpd10pV0&t=38s

If you're interested in the fetters go to Kevin Shanilek's website for information:
https://simplytheseen.com/

Also a recent video conversation with Ilona and Kevin Shanilek on the Fetters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWfBHN6oRk

Perfectly Okay.Org:
https://perfectlyokay.org/ - A free, supportive community that has many different modalities and meetings.

There are a number of teleconference groups if you have questions and/or would like to participate in conversation with others who have either been through the LU guiding or who are currently undergoing the process with a guide.

Vince Schubert now has three zoom meetings.These get posted on YouTube under Vince Schubert.
Please contact him via email: vinceschubert@gmail.com for a link and schedule.

Luchana & Lubo have group on Thursdays. Please contact Luchana at:
luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting, contact:
admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link and schedule.

[72457245]

Hello Rowena,

Thank you so much for all your guidance, clarity and persistence in this journey with me. I am so happy to have had you as my guide. I would love to connect sometime on a call/video call just to have a few minutes of face to face time. Much, much gratitude and blessings.

All the best and Love, Colin

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

Sending this out as a reconnecting. It has now been 5 months since you answered those questions and a lot can change.
Doubt about having had a real shift can arise, and old resistance patterns can resurface from what is perhaps a deeper layer, triggering perhaps some deeply ingrained childhood trauma or beliefs.

Please do not hesitate to let me know where you feel you are at the moment and we can continue looking.

With love,

Rowena

[72457245]

Hi Rowena,

Thanks so much for this. It's exciting to be in touch with you again. There has been a lot of things happening here since we stopped our previous looking. Let me try to update my summary of how things felt when we stopped and what has evolved since then.

1) At the end of our correspondence, there were changes in progress but I wasn't sure of exactly what.

2) There was a wanting of changes to be - and wishful thinking perhaps combined with some power of suggestion (of my own thoughts, not of yours)

3) I think I had felt we had reached a natural stopping point and there was a slight impatience as if wanting to "get to the end". I was not sitting with the exercises/integrating their lessons more deeply day to day. Sort of a skimming of the surface and checking the boxes. Some of them did hit more deeply I feel.

4) The changes felt somewhat experiential, somewhat intellectual, leaning towards the intellectual side more, and that was okay. The most notable change was definitely around thought. I could see how pervasive thought was to some degree in various looking and how deeply mind identified I was as the primary means of identifying "myself".

5) In subsequent weeks/months, as this seeped in, the insight into thought seemed to become stronger. I could see that I was not my thoughts, but somehow, it was not (and perhaps is still not) unshakable/undoubtable as to what I AM. (I have learned the answer is that which is aware, the unborn, permanent unnamable presence, beingness etc.) and I do have a growing experience of that but somehow doubt or "shakability" still exists). So I know what I am NOT, but I do not know what I AM.

6) In these months, a very dramatic quieting of thoughts occurred and maybe a sense of no doership and complete falling after of reactivity. This was absolutely a "shift" and there were tangible differences in life such as: a) Lack of personal will, b) complete resolution of longstanding issues (happy visits with mom all of a sudden, a complete 180), c) Effortless silence. This was all quite incredible, indeed I felt quite "enlightened" for a time sitting for 2 hours with only 3 or 4 thoughts coming in. Yet, despite this, there was not a deep presence, vibrancy, or joy of any sort, no energetic rising or anything like that, no conditioning arising. Peace, yes. It felt a little like a was ghosting around on autopilot. So, sounds like "honeymooning". I sat for many hours in the lawn chair, in the silence gift that had appeared, doing nothing. In the quietude or perhaps before it was deeply realized that "all problems are thoughts". Hooray, no more problems! Pretty good, no?

7) Now thoughts have returned but there is a sense that the insight around thoughts cannot be unseen. I have been focusing more on the body sense and using a few different techniques to trigger a greater sense of presence, mainly a subtle reminder to "love all" things which is more like a gratitude/appreciation than a love, but seems to instantly bring me into a presence of the senses that isn't naturally noticed even with a quiet mind. Though thoughts can still be quiet and a general equanimity exists, reactivity has crept back in... though it has been dramatically weakened. Seeking energy has died down and is not rabid any longer but that old wheel sometimes feels like it's turning while I inquire about who or what is picking up a book and what are they still looking for on Liberation Unleashed!

8) Lately I have found myself studying various awakening maps trying to figure out a little bit about what's happened and where I am going. Because experiential doubts remain about who I AM, I don't believe I have truly dropped the first 3 fetters (fetter model) or realized the IAM (awakening to reality model). Intellectually, and even partially experientially, I can see that I AM that which is aware and even there are aspects of no separation that I can easily comprehend/experience... yet, I feel like the "doubtless, unshakable" shift described by ATR and the fetter model is not complete despite all these wonderful recent events. Just the undergoing of the study, the coming here looking for external validation etc. is pointing to doubt. I do feel like it is all slowly developing and will probably eventually happen on it's own, so there is not a fear or desperation around this. I would call it a curious burning to continue on exploring after a long rest.

9) I feel like there are loose ends here but I have not been able to pinpoint where they are. Perhaps the controller identity, the body identity, and other aspects are weakened, but still hanging on. Identity layers still need dissolving perhaps, maybe we can help them along with inquiry.

10) I'm not 100% sure if we are still firmly in the scope of LU at this point. If not, that's okay too.

I welcome your feedback, comments, direction for inquiry etc.

Love, C

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

Its great to continue this conversation! Since you have done such a great job of expressing your thoughts in such a clear way, I will continue with a response to each numbered paragraph. But first of all, to keep on track, let's go back to the initial LU question that you answered at the beginning of our conversation because everything comes back to this.

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

Lets look at the word 'real'. How do we know what is 'real' from an absolute perspective? Things have to be named and described and then they 'seem' to become real. In an exercises using direct experience of the visual field, we can allow for different degrees of attention going to thought overlay, (labels, descriptions, definitions etc.) or we can simply let go of all descriptions, including shape and color and what are we left with? (OK and so now the mind tries to come back and distract us, but was there a moment when the mind was flummoxed? Look for yourself!

Lets look at the word 'inherent'..... "existing in something as a permanent, essential or characteristic attribute."

So those are two key words to keep in mind as we keep looking and digging.

1.

"there were changes in progress, but "I" wasn't sure of exactly what"

There is some impulse that is seeking to evaluate, to know something 'real', and it seems that an "I" is taking ownership of this impulse!
Can we stop thoughts from arising trying to evaluate, question, qualify and compare?
Can we stop the mind from doing what it does?
Is it necessary for there to be an "I" to take ownership of this mental activity?
Where is that "I" located?


2. Similar to the above.


3. I get you. At the time, from my understanding and from other guides confirming, it seemed like that to me too. Now, since the recent shake-up to look again at the guiding process there is no 'finality' to this enquiry. We keep on going as and when desired. We are so conditioned to successfully complete things we set out to do, but what this enquiry is pointing to is outside of the conditioned mind. Each and every person will have a different experience. For some people it is more of an intellectual seeing rather than a full blown experiential knowing. It can take time an patience for 'knowing' to be integrated into a fully body knowing.


4. Good

5. So, "I" know what I am NOT, but "I" do not know what I AM.

What is that "I" that knows what it is NOT?
Where can it be found other than a thought?
Can anything be found that can take ownership of knowing what it is NOT or of not knowing what it IS?
Where can anything be found other than through LOOKING and letting go of all concepts, including I AM?

6....Yet despite this, there was not a deep presence, vibrancy, or joy of any sort, no energetic rising or anything like that, no conditioning arising. Peace, yes. It felt a little like ghosting around on autopilot. So, sounds like 'honeymooning."

Yes, a lovely honeymoon!
And yet, at the same time an undercurrent of expectations arising about what was not present.
So the perfect ground for doubt to keep in....and so, to keep LOOKING,

7) Now thoughts have returned but there is a sense that the insight around thoughts cannot be unseen.

Good.

I have been focusing more on the body sense and using a few different techniques to trigger a greater sense of presence, mainly a subtle reminder to "love all" things which is more like a gratitude/appreciation than a love, but seems to instantly bring me into a presence of the senses that isn't naturally noticed even with a quiet mind.

Can you use a word or two to clarify this experience? Describe how it FEELS. And then look at your word description of how it FEELS and see where that points to in the body as sensations.

Though thoughts can still be quiet and a general equanimity exists, reactivity has crept back in... though it has been dramatically weakened.

Welcome to reactivity! Here you are looking at Fetters 4 and 5, desire and ill will. That there is something outside of you that can push a button or trigger that you 'apparently' have in order to desire something or push it away. We can look into this.
Have you heard of Todd and Pernille and the Awakening Curriculum? Their view of the Fetters is that it is more like a wheel of identification rather than a linear approach. I have found that resonates well with me.

Seeking energy has died down and is not rabid any longer but that old wheel sometimes feels like it's turning while I inquire about who or what is picking up a book and what are they still looking for on Liberation Unleashed!

This can also be looked at from a Fetter 4 and 5 approach, and the question "what is still being looked for on LU?" is a good one and I think it is a good pointer towards some need to divert away from some body sensations of restlessness or something.
Its good to look, and at the same time if there is a momentum of pleasure involved, what's wrong with that.
I have a mind that is always looking for more information, (books are mind candy!) and then often I will leave a book half way through when the message sinks in that it is impossible to know what anything is really! Ha Ha !!!

8) Lately I have found myself studying various awakening maps trying to figure out a little bit about what's happened and where I am going. Because experiential doubts remain about who I AM, I don't believe I have truly dropped the first 3 fetters (fetter model) or realized the IAM (awakening to reality model). Intellectually, and even partially experientially, I can see that I AM that which is aware and even there are aspects of no separation that I can easily comprehend/experience... yet, I feel like the "doubtless, unshakable" shift described by ATR and the fetter model is not complete despite all these wonderful recent events. Just the undergoing of the study, the coming here looking for external validation etc. is pointing to doubt. I do feel like it is all slowly developing and will probably eventually happen on it's own, so there is not a fear or desperation around this. I would call it a curious burning to continue on exploring after a long rest.

Sounds good to me. Let's call it deepening. Seeking has stopped but there is a natural impulse to keep on deepening.

Here's my little story about this: Neural networks are being updated, and this has a trickle down effect on the nervous system, and then further on down into a gradual letting go of reactivity, conditioning and trauma held in the body. This takes time, maybe a lifetime for an "I" !! :)

10) I'm not 100% sure if we are still firmly in the scope of LU at this point. If not, that's okay too.

I think it is fine that we keep exploring here on the forum. The first 5 Fetters are really connected to basic patterns of identification and so it is always useful to keep looking.


Please answer what is in blue, and then we can get into deepening!


With love,
Rowena

[72457245]

Lets look at the word 'real'. How do we know what is 'real' from an absolute perspective? Things have to be named and described and then they 'seem' to become real. In an exercises using direct experience of the visual field, we can allow for different degrees of attention going to thought overlay, (labels, descriptions, definitions etc.) or we can simply let go of all descriptions, including shape and color and what are we left with? (OK and so now the mind tries to come back and distract us, but was there a moment when the mind was flummoxed? Look for yourself!

We are left with pure perception or just beingness. I did not find a moment where the mind was flummoxed in this though. It just sort of sat back quietly. Eventually it got impatient and returned to the formulating/typing of this message. Was that the flummoxing?

There is some impulse that is seeking to evaluate, to know something 'real', and it seems that an "I" is taking ownership of this impulse!
Can we stop thoughts from arising trying to evaluate, question, qualify and compare?
Can we stop the mind from doing what it does?
Is it necessary for there to be an "I" to take ownership of this mental activity?
Where is that "I" located?

Yes I can see this happening, good pointer.

No.
No.
No.
Cannot be located, yet "I" exist?

What is that "I" that knows what it is NOT?

It is just a thought saying "you are not what you thought you were".

Where can it be found other than a thought?

Cannot be found other than a thought.

Can anything be found that can take ownership of knowing what it is NOT or of not knowing what it IS?

Just thoughts, imagined.

Where can anything be found other than through LOOKING and letting go of all concepts, including I AM?

If I focus attention on that which is aware, the attention is on "something". I can place attention on my keyboard keys and find them. I think your question may be pointing to ask "Where can anything "that resembles an identity" be found other than through LOOKING and letting go of all concepts, including I AM?"" When you say LOOKING, I assume you mean focusing of attention or unfocusing of attention.

I have been focusing more on the body sense and using a few different techniques to trigger a greater sense of presence, mainly a subtle reminder to "love all" things which is more like a gratitude/appreciation than a love, but seems to instantly bring me into a presence of the senses that isn't naturally noticed even with a quiet mind.

Can you use a word or two to clarify this experience? Describe how it FEELS. And then look at your word description of how it FEELS and see where that points to in the body as sensations.

"All aliveness" or maybe "All senses activated". It is a whole body thing.

Thank you for your other thoughts and perspectives, very helpful. Best, C

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

We are left with pure perception or just beingness. I did not find a moment where the mind was flummoxed in this though. It just sort of sat back quietly. Eventually it got impatient and returned to the formulating/typing of this message. Was that the flummoxing?

Yes, that's it exactly, but keep at it, it is a lovely exercise and the experience can deepen.

Sit quietly, eyes open, the visual field in front of you and find something to look at.
Look at it as if you are seeing it for the first time.
What do you see? For instance a book, a pen, a cup, an apple?
Now look again at the object in direct experience.
What do you see without a conceptual label? i.e. the minimum that can be named: a shape and color within a kaleidoscope of other shapes and colors.
Now look again with same focused attention but dropping all labels.
What happens in that instance?
Perception is hacked and there might be a kind of energetic shift, a moment of clarity. (Mind is flummoxed or halted)

Just this......

Naming it anything is going back into mind.
And when mind comes back, it can then name it how it wishes.

What is that "I" that knows what it is NOT?

It is just a thought saying "you are not what you thought you were".

YOU!
There are two YOUs here, can you see that there is an inner narrative at work?
From my experience the word "you" can be very charged (it can hold past childhood trauma) and is really worth exploring.
YOU....What is that YOU according to others?
What labels have others dumped on it in the past that thought is now echoing back.
What is that YOU?
Where is that YOU located.
What comes up when you utter the word YOU?
All thoughts and labels are going to point to some kind of body sensation.

If I focus attention on that which is aware, the attention is on "something".

1) OK, the illusory "I" has surfaced again!
Does attention need an "I" in order for it to operate?
Attention shifts constantly between the senses, each time we move our head, listen to sounds, voices, inner thoughts which say that an "I" focused attention.... on something, yes.

2) So thoughts say that attention is focused on that which is aware.
This implies that there is a "something" which is aware.
In your direct experience can any such "thing" be found that is aware, if so, where?

There is a need by the mind to make up concepts or labels about things that cannot be found or verified.

What is attention exactly, and can it be separated from awareness as a "thing"?
What do you find?

I can place attention on my keyboard keys and find them. I think your question may be pointing to ask "Where can anything "that resembles an identity" be found other than through LOOKING and letting go of all concepts, including I AM?"" When you say LOOKING, I assume you mean focusing of attention or unfocusing of attention.

When I say LOOKING from direct experience.
Becoming aware of what is ACTUAL rather than what is conceptual.
Or you could say focusing attention on direct experience and becoming aware of what is ACTUAL and what is conceptual.
Can there be attention without awareness?

This exercise might help:

Doership Exercise

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then: Look on your right.

Then look on your left.

Finally, bring your head back to centre, and now close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).

When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).

And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off?

Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose?

Did a 'self' choose something?

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


With love,
Rowena

[72457245]

Yes, that's it exactly, but keep at it, it is a lovely exercise and the experience can deepen.

Okay yes, I understand the exercise now. Initially I was mistaking the meaning of the word flummoxed for something else I think. But yes it is like a "do nothing" type of open eye meditative experience. Very beautiful and effortless.

Sit quietly, eyes open, the visual field in front of you and find something to look at.
Look at it as if you are seeing it for the first time.
What do you see? For instance a book, a pen, a cup, an apple?

I see a tree with the sky behind it.

Now look again at the object in direct experience.
What do you see without a conceptual label? i.e. the minimum that can be named: a shape and color within a kaleidoscope of other shapes and colors.

Colors.

Now look again with same focused attention but dropping all labels.
What happens in that instance?
Perception is hacked and there might be a kind of energetic shift, a moment of clarity. (Mind is flummoxed or halted)

At first I could not noticed a change but then later I noticed a slight increase in sharpness or perhaps a very slight increase in vividness. Quite subtle. I would also say a very subtle increase in appreciation or reverence type of feeling.

YOU!
There are two YOUs here, can you see that there is an inner narrative at work?
From my experience the word "you" can be very charged (it can hold past childhood trauma) and is really worth exploring.
YOU....What is that YOU according to others?
What labels have others dumped on it in the past that thought is now echoing back.
What is that YOU?
Where is that YOU located.
What comes up when you utter the word YOU?
All thoughts and labels are going to point to some kind of body sensation.

Good discovery. I think more commonly this shows up as "I", not sure why I chose "YOU" in this case but I will investigate a bit to see if that keeps showing up as the precise thought. My inkling is that I was not terribly precise in my report back. Yes I see the inner narrative regardless. "I was not what I thought I was". An inner narrative, yes. What is the significance of that? Perhaps I could have said, "There was a mistaking of identity as thought."

Regarding YOU. Particularly when YOU write it in capital letters, it seems perhaps a little accusatory! Let ME play with that some more. Sitting with the YOU word brings up a very subtle vibration in the heart area... yet the same thing happens with "I".... and "donkey". So I'm not sure if it is significant. When I utter the word YOU, there does seem to be a slight negative connotation to it. That's about all that comes up. The YOU according to others, I'm not sure to be honest, this seemed more important in the past but in the last year it has seemed to become rather unimportant/uncharged.

If I focus attention on that which is aware, the attention is on "something".

1) OK, the illusory "I" has surfaced again!

Right yes, I can see my phrasing is important to get precise here.

Does attention need an "I" in order for it to operate?

This seems like a conceptual question or perhaps philosophical but important here. If you prefer I stay in DE for this inquiry please let me know but I am happy to also openly chat. Does attention need an "I" in order for it to operate? Yes it does if "I" = existence. If "I" = "thought", then no, it doesn't.

I suspect it very much depends on how you define "I". Perhaps we might define that usage to provide some clarity to to our exchange?

So does attention need existence in order to operate? I would guess it does. Do you exist? Or simply "Are you?" If you write me back, it would appear that you do. You exist! You can create a belief that says, there is no I and I don't exist. But you must exist if there is stimulus and response. How we define (or forego definition of) YOU is another matter. Are you a separate individual self born somewhere that goes by a name and has preferences etc? I don't know. Are you an infinite being that stretches the entire cosmos and yet is the same time complete emptiness and fullness, without separation between anything, and yet also a person that calls herself by a name and goes to the store to buy tea? I don't know. But if I simply ask if you are aware? The answer does prove you exist. Therefore, I would say, yes, you exist, and for convenience, you call whatever that might be "I".
Just for clarity, what I discovered over the past while is that the "I" definition or existential definition, was primarily thoughts. Since, this has shifted to "I don't know" or if you prefer "mind doesn't know existential identity". Yet it seems clear to be that this is not fully solidified and I'm happy when you recognize and point out identification with various things.

Attention shifts constantly between the senses, each time we move our head, listen to sounds, voices, inner thoughts which say that an "I" focused attention.... on something, yes.

Right, perhaps really it's more like attention shifts in awareness/existence, not necessarily that it was controlled by something.
Great reminder.

2) So thoughts say that attention is focused on that which is aware.
This implies that there is a "something" which is aware.
In your direct experience can any such "thing" be found that is aware, if so, where?

Yes good points. Let me redo my previous answer to "Where can anything be found other than through LOOKING and letting go of all concepts, including I AM?"

Just in the mind space as imagined thought. It is not that there is a "that which is aware", more like "awareness/existence itself". I think what I am trying to express is what is there before LOOKING. What does looking appear in, or perhaps what is aware of looking. If there is no existing, there is no looking?

There is a need by the mind to make up concepts or labels about things that cannot be found or verified.
What is attention exactly, and can it be separated from awareness as a "thing"?
What do you find?

Attention is a movement of focus, like a highlighter. It cannot be separated from awareness as a "thing" and in DE, it cannot be found. You can observe it's effects but not itself - it's not an object. It is similar to sight, hearing, touch etc., which are also not separate from awareness, they are not objects, do not exist in DE... is more like a movement.

The question is; can you turn seeing off?
Can you NOT see what is seen?
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
Can you turn off seeing?
What did the 'chooser' choose?
Did a 'self' choose something?
If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

No cannot turn seeing/not seeing off.
No, it's automatic uncontrollable!
No
No
No
Cannot find a chooser to choose
Did a self choose something? It kind of feels like he chose to move his head left/right etc. But I cannot find that self. But it does feel like that choice was made a little bit somehow. This is where before I would just say "no" with some wishful thinking perhaps. I think it is more like an afterthought of doubt - COULD I make the choice to say focus in on the distant tree or focus in on my screen here in front of me? And it seems like the answer is yes. I can't choose to see or not see, but it seems like I can choose to focus near or far. Or perhaps choose to turn head left or right. I have done the hand raising exercise, maybe I need to do that more. What's goin on there? Thanks for getting back into the weeds with me here. Blessings, C

[Noro]

I suspect it very much depends on how you define "I". Perhaps we might define that usage to provide some clarity to to our exchange?

How can you define something that cannot be found in direct looking? You have yet to find actual proof of an "I"!
Once we move into definitions we are looking at thoughts, concepts, analysis etc.
All this is fine in the relative or conventional reality, but this is not where we want to be looking.
We are looking for what is actual experience, right now, here after ALL labels have been removed.

What you experienced for yourself in the first exercise.

What is This, PRIOR to being given any name such as awareness, existence, I AM, etc.?
Can it be known as a thing?
All naming belongs to the relative or conventional reality trying to explain what is prior to names.
All names are pointing to some "thing"; they are boxing up what is unknowable into a thing.

This is where we are always looking.
Once this is seen clearly then we can start using labels, definitions etc. but with the understanding that ultimately we don't know what anything is. We can give names, but with the understanding all names are thought overlay, agreed upon in relative, conventional reality which are pointing to something that is PRIOR to thought.

Can this be experienced? Now we're back in the relative.
This is an erroneous question, because we must then ask: Experienced? by whom?
So we go back looking for what cannot be found: an "I" or me or you or a self.
"I" cannot be found....
Does there need to be an "I" for experiencing to happen?
Or is there simply experiencing happening.

Is this becoming clearer now.

Attention is a movement of focus, like a highlighter. It cannot be separated from awareness as a "thing" and in DE, it cannot be found. You can observe it's effects but not itself - it's not an object. It is similar to sight, hearing, touch etc., which are also not separate from awareness, they are not objects, do not exist in DE... is more like a movement.

I love this :)

Cannot find a chooser to choose
Did a self choose something? It kind of feels like he chose to move his head left/right etc. But I cannot find that self. But it does feel like that choice was made a little bit somehow. This is where before I would just say "no" with some wishful thinking perhaps. I think it is more like an afterthought of doubt - COULD I make the choice to say focus in on the distant tree or focus in on my screen here in front of me? And it seems like the answer is yes. I can't choose to see or not see, but it seems like I can choose to focus near or far.

It kind of feels like.....
it does feel like......
it seems like.....

Yes, once we are back in the everyday reality this is good language to use.
A simple understanding of an illusion is that things are not the way they appear to be.

Keep doing the Palm flipping exercise, the Doership exercise, and I will look for a few more.
Also, repeat the visual exercise many times a day.


Love,
Rowena