Stream Entry

[Nicholas]

In one quote you refer to the seer as "he" and in another as "she" ! HAHA

the seer is a he (me, el observador, the observer, the seer), the mind is a … she (la mente, the mind, female)

Does your attention actually cross ANY BOUNDARY between what is typically considered to be inwards ( the Imagined watermelon) and the object "out there"?

I’m not sure if I’m doing the soft gaze correctly. I look with my eyes at an object A at the center, but then focus on an object B outside, on my peripheral vision. So I’m not really focusing on either, thus a “soft gaze”. is that ok?

the question: it feels like some boundary is crossed. like moving within realms. when focusing on the object outside it feels like concentrating on something real. but on an imagined object… not.

so, different realms… the mind one and the real one.

Now move your attention between the watermelon, the chosen object in the field of vision AND SEEING ITSELF.

aah I’m still not really sure what the hell I’m doing when I focus on the self (or seeing itself) it feels like I’m not doing anything.

When I try to focus on the seer it feels like I’m trying to focus on something inside my mind.

By the way… there’s not “time conditions” here, like “do this exercise for 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 1 hour”, I wonder why. Wouldn’t this be affected by that? maybe doing this for only 10 minutes makes no sense, but what about 1 hour?

Tell me, without ANY labeling or interpretation of the mind overlaying your experience can you find any DIVISION, ANY GAP, ANY BOUNDARY, ANY SEPARATION IN YOUR ACTUAL SEEING EXPERIENCE at all?

I have to admit that this exercise is a bit hard, because requires concentration… I tend to lose focus easy, maybe it’s normal. There’s a lot of noise and distractions in my head.

there’s some kind of division between focusing on object on my vision, object on my imagination... but then when trying to see the seer… there’s no boundarie because I’m not even jumping, I just stay there… quiet. still. locked up. wondering… how to do this.

So I can’t answer if there’s a gap or not because I never manage to… do something at that point!

As you move your attention back and forward is there ANYTHING that tells you where any notion of a line between inside and outside might be that your attention has to cross?

aah so abstract!
there’s a line between an object out there and a object on my mind? yes, there’s like this invisible wall, that would be the body/brain/eyes.

Is there anything else you notice in your ACTUAL EXPERIENCE of SEEING about the phenomenon of imagined watermelon, the field of vision and the reality of SEEING? [/color]

I order my mind “ok, focus on that object in the periphery”
ok… I can do that.

“ok, now focus on this imagined watermelon”

yeah…

(Have in mind that this focus is not perfect… it is full of noise in my mind)

“now let’s turn the focus to the seer!”

… what?
…

What’s the difference between focusing on visuals, imagined objects, taste, sounds, smell and sensations? they are all objects. I could switch the focus on any of them…
…and then switch the focus to the seer…

but right, you tell me to try to focus visually on the seer.

can I… go outside the route a little bit here?

I can’t smell the smeller.
I can’t taste the taster.

that leaves me with four doors: imagination, sensation, sight and hearing.

I can’t hear the hearer…
…
I can imagine the imaginer (a point of light for example, but never seen him)… but however I can do whatever I want with imagination, like imagining things that doesn’t exist so this is not valid. out.

sight and sensation.

if I try to feel the feeler my focus goes on something inside my head, something… hollow, however.

like pressure.

but also, the different sensations inside mu head but never landing on something really tangible where I can say “AH, there it is!”

let’s try again with sight.

mmmh, still can’t do it. If there is no seer, I will never be able to focus on it.

when I try to do it… my other senses interfere. for example I start feeling my eyes. my imagination tries to turn my vision backwards, like being a camera that tries to focus on itself. but a camera can’t do that.

…

using my seeing I can’t focus on the seer. ok. but I can feel some kind of a “me”. why do I have this feeling of being alive, of being in control, of choosing where to focus, of CHOOSING, of DECIDING?

…

also… for a moment I had this uncomfortable sensation that I actually CAN’T focus on a object. because what is an object? a set of “pixels” or “points” but what are those points? they are made of even MORE points, and so and so and so…
the focus in itself is an illusion, because you can’t focus on something that is infinite.

abrazooo

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

I’m not sure if I’m doing the soft gaze correctly. I look with my eyes at an object A at the center, but then focus on an object B outside, on my peripheral vision. So I’m not really focusing on either, thus a “soft gaze”. is that ok?

It's not the focusing on the objects that is the all important aspect here - it is looking for any start or end to what we call "internal" and "external" aspects of experience.
Is there any boundary that you can find at all between "inside" and "outside" A definite place where inside changes to outside?

so, different realms… the mind one and the real one.

Mmmmm....... realms. Sounds like "consulting" of thoughts is happening here
Can you be 100% sure there are two realms in SEEING as you call them? Where does one end and the other start when you LOOK WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT IT?




Remember what you have described from your experience already. Seeing is color and color is seeing.
Is that still true for you?




This is what you said on Sunday.........

but also… sometimes it looks like a painting, a painting is ONE thing. so, for a brief moment it just feels like it’s all ONE THING.

This was the response given.
That's a good metaphor ! There are no boundaries between objects on a painting. The brief moment you refer to is the moment you are seeing BEFORE the mind kicks in. It is incredibly fast the way the mind comes in to make "sense" of what is seen so that we can navigate this conventional way of living. So this is a wonderful example of the fact that we are not trying to get rid of anything. We are simply discovering what is ACTUALLY happening in experience.


Remember ....we are attending to SEEING here.
Please LOOK again and tell me which is the truer for you? Are there two realms of SEEING or ONLY ONE UNINTERRUPTED EXPERIENCE OF SEEING just as one sees colors on a "painting".

aah I’m still not really sure what the hell I’m doing when I focus on the self (or seeing itself) it feels like I’m not doing anything.

Are you willing to be open to the possibility that this be because there is nothing to do to SEE. That SEEING just is?



Is there resistance to this possibility?




If there is, where is the "resisting"?




So right now try to start or stop SEEING.
Can you stop seeing when you are dreaming?



Can you stop seeing when your eyes are closed?



Now LOOK at your EXPERIENCE DIRECTLY ......can you actually start or stop SEEING or is SEEING just happening?

aah so abstract!

This is not at all abstract. This is real. This is actual. What makes this seem abstract is THINKING. It is a belief (thought, idea, concept, notion or what ever the word may be) that we have accepted through conditioning.

there’s a line between an object out there and a object on my mind? yes, there’s like this invisible wall, that would be the body/brain/eyes.

Remember we are exploring SEEING here. How can an invisible wall be seen?

If there is no seer, I will never be able to focus on it.

That is true. So what is the truth if you LOOK and can't find a SEER?



What is it that persists in convincing you that there is such a THING as a SEER?

why do I have this feeling of being alive,

You can't see life that is living you. No-one has been able to find this that we label "life" that which animates all living have they?
But there is no question that you are alive is there? Even though what we call life can never be actually found?



In the illusion we have simply assumed that for us to see there must be an entity, an object, a thing that is the SEER. But most never actually question whether that is the truth or not. What if SEEING is "simply" an "aspect" of this livingness, this being alive that can never be grasped?
If that is so, should it be so strange that when you LOOK (LOOK again right now - without going ANYWHERE ELSE such as thought) we actually can't find a SEER even though SEEING is happening?



With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

It's not the focusing on the objects that is the all important aspect here - it is looking for any start or end to what we call "internal" and "external" aspects of experience.
Is there any boundary that you can find at all between "inside" and "outside" A definite place where inside changes to outside?

something tells me there is no inside or outside, just things existing.

however, regarding internal or external aspects… seeing and imagining are just 2 different senses, we can’t compare them.

I can see a dog, we can all agree as long as we are mentally stable… that there is a dog right there.

but if I imagine a dog… I will the only able to see it.

that makes it “internal”. in the sense that only I can see it.

outside of thought, everything is external.

Can you be 100% sure there are two realms in SEEING as you call them? Where does one end and the other start when you LOOK WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT IT?

They are not realms… they are just different senses.
I can see something in front of me, but when I imagine something I’m using an entirely different system.

now without thinking. I see something in front on me and then I imagine whatever, like an apple.
mmm shit, the imagination is something really strange. I can imagine that I’m activating other senses. I can imagine that I feel something on my arm, or the taste of chocolate.

I can imagine a key in front of me.

but you know what? there’s a distinct difference between imagination and the other senses.
imagination feels fake, weak.

When I imagine these things they are NOT out there… they are inside, they feel inside.
The key doesn’t appear or is imagined in front of me, it’s like… literally this:

let’s say I want to imagine a key on the table…

ME | imagined key | vision | table

and not
ME | vision | imagined key | table

so… and again, I’m not employing thinking at this part, is just what I see… things that are imagined are definitely inside.

(I can’t imagine something outside, that would be an hallucination)

Remember what you have described from your experience already. Seeing is color and color is seeing.
Is that still true for you?

yes, when we refer to seeing… YES.

if I remove color… where the seeing goes? there’s no seeing.
if I remove seeing… no color anymore.

still true

Please LOOK again and tell me which is the truer for you? Are there two realms of SEEING or ONLY ONE UNINTERRUPTED EXPERIENCE OF SEEING just as one sees colors on a "painting".

when only seeing… only one uninterrumpted experience of seeing.

“aah I’m still not really sure what the hell I’m doing when I focus on the self (or seeing itself) it feels like I’m not doing anything.”
Are you willing to be open to the possibility that this be because there is nothing to do to SEE. That SEEING just is?
uh, maybe I did this exercise wrong previously. focusing on seeing itself or focusing on the seer? because those are two different things.

sorry, just confused here. I’m a little dumb sometimes, as a programmer I take things TOO literally so… there might be some misunderstaing.

can’t answer the next two questions

Is there resistance to this possibility?

---

If there is, where is the "resisting"?

---

So right now try to start or stop SEEING.
Can you stop seeing when you are dreaming?

… seeing never stops.

Can you stop seeing when your eyes are closed?

seeing never stops

Now LOOK at your EXPERIENCE DIRECTLY ......can you actually start or stop SEEING or is SEEING just happening?

apparently, seeing just happens.

“there’s a line between an object out there and a object on my mind? yes, there’s like this invisible wall, that would be the body/brain/eyes.”
Remember we are exploring SEEING here. How can an invisible wall be seen?

ok, it’s the thing I explained earlier. they are different senses. one is inside, the other outside.

“If there is no seer, I will never be able to focus on it.”
That is true. So what is the truth if you LOOK and can't find a SEER?

I don’t know, I can’t locate a seer or self using any of my senses. BUT a microscopic cell neither.

(but there are machines to see that cell you dumbass, we haven’t found a self inside people)

what if it’s there but we don’t have the tools to detect it?

on the other hand, why do we say there’s a self in here, when did that started to happen?

What is it that persists in convincing you that there is such a THING as a SEER?

I don’t know, we can’t detect it. we can’t see it or use our senses to look for it.
It feels like a virus really. I don’t know how to answer this question anymore.

“why do I have this feeling of being alive”
You can't see life that is living you. No-one has been able to find this that we label "life" that which animates all living have they?
But there is no question that you are alive is there? Even though what we call life can never be actually found?

If I have life inside me, but I can’t find it. Then… maybe there is no life?

In the illusion we have simply assumed that for us to see there must be an entity, an object, a thing that is the SEER. But most never actually question whether that is the truth or not. What if SEEING is "simply" an "aspect" of this livingness, this being alive that can never be grasped?
If that is so, should it be so strange that when you LOOK (LOOK again right now - without going ANYWHERE ELSE such as thought) we actually can't find a SEER even though SEEING is happening?

I sort of get it but then I don’t.
I don’t know what to say, because I know what your answer will be, so I’m just here confused.

[Alless]

Nicholas

I can see a dog, we can all agree as long as we are mentally stable… that there is a dog right there.
but if I imagine a dog… I will the only able to see it.
that makes it “internal”. in the sense that only I can see it.
outside of thought, everything is external.

It's becoming clearer what you explain here about your experience of imagination and things"outside" being different with your example here of the dog and also the example of the key.

Remember at the start we said,,,,
So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

The label Thoughts Arising and your description of imagination are pointing to the same aspect of experiencing.

I venture to say that we can use the words "thought" and "imagination" interchangeably.
Are you comfortable with that?



In SEEING there is only ever color as you have said here......

when only seeing… only one uninterrumpted experience of seeing.

This is the important truth we are discovering in this investigation.

but you know what? there’s a distinct difference between imagination and the other senses.
imagination feels fake, weak.

I know what you are saying with imagination seeming to be weaker in the visual. However the truth is that it is the oh so subtle aspects of imagination that are the strongest influences. In the illusion we don't realize that there are thoughts that we are "looking from or looking through" that are having a pervasive influence on our experience.

So being able to discern between imagination and seeing as you have done is vital. This sets us up nicely to investigate thought. This is a critical aspect of this investigation.


There are another couple of points in your post I would like to revisit just before we dive into exploration of thought.

seeing never stops.

Yes

apparently, seeing just happens.

"Apparently" brings with it a hesitation. We won't labor the point right now. Just continue to LOOK and the truth will show itself as you are truly open to it.



Now we're going to switch to focus on the phenomena of thought.

This is a very important exercise. We can actually experience what seems like a SLOWING of the thought stream so I will ask you to spend more time with it.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts:

(1) Notice the current thought that is present. Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or “this is dumb” - any sort of thoughts.

(2) This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

(3) Then wait for the next thought to come.

(4) When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

(5) Then wait for the next thought to come.

(6) Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought comes in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short (or long) gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:

Throughout your entire waking day and until you go to bed at night, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Using some specific examples from your experience let me know how you go.



Also are you experiencing any reaction to observing thoughts in this way? Any resistance? Any hesitation? Any undue procrastination? Let me know about your reactions to doing this as that might also give us some important clues.



Tell me about your experience in the gap. Is there anything in particular that you notice when in the gap?




Be patient with yourself Nicholas. This is a "new" frontier 😊


With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

I venture to say that we can use the words "thought" and "imagination" interchangeably.
Are you comfortable with that?

yes!

regarding the exercise... what if I have multiple layers of thoughts in my mind? how do I deal with that?

first layer = monologue, it has some gaps
second layer = music, doesn't have gaps. it just morphs endlessly. maybe, MAYBE it stops for a bit but rarely happens
third layer = in the background, at low volume... there is some kind of whirlwind of quiet thoughts that can’t be grasped. they don't make sense.

how do I proceed?

I mean you make it seem like there's just monologue... but its way MORE complex than that. at least here.

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

You have made some very useful observations here

what if I have multiple layers of thoughts in my mind

Yes, indeed there is

but its way MORE complex than that

Indeed the mind is complex ! And exponentially so when when we think about it !

I mean you make it seem like there's just monologue.

Interesting reaction.
Tell me more about that reaction

first layer = monologue, it has some gaps

The monologue is a really good place to start for this exercise. Use that. Let me know what you find.



With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Tell me more about that reaction

I've seen this exercise in the past. You (not exactly you but the people that talk about this) make it seem simple. not easy, but simple. "just look at thoughts and find the gap".

and in my case... it isn't just a stream of thoughts. it's at least 3 of them. I don't know why this is never mentioned.
I also feel... handicapped with this. there's not a lot of people that have constant music in their heads.

regarding the exercise, do you mind if I take a couple days with it? I only have some quiet time at night, and I think it's the best time to do this.

[Alless]

Nicholas

and in my case... it isn't just a stream of thoughts. it's at least 3 of them. I don't know why this is never mentioned.

Be assured you are not alone in what you describe with layers of thought. There are multiple layers. Some apparent and some not even recognized. Sometimes we recognize a thought and then there can be another thought "resisting" that thought. There are thoughts that relate to what we are attending to in any given moment, thoughts that arise from conditioning simultaneously, and often torrents of thoughts that relate to emotions that arise in every given moment as well as thoughts that we are totally unaware of that affect our experience. So it certainly is a "melting pot" so to speak or can often be a cauldron of turmoil. I don't know if this resonates with you when you speak of the layers of thought in your own experience. I just want to reassure you we are not ignoring the complexity of all this in this investigation.

What we are working towards here is to point to propensity to BELIEVE that the CONTENT of thought is REALITY is at the core of what we label the illusion and that once we clearly see that happening, imprisoning patterns of thought can be seen to loosen their hold in our experience.

We are not trying to get rid of any of thoughts ( we can't control them anyway) but recognizing what is happening. Thoughts themselves are not the issue, CLEAR SEEING of what is happening as thought is believed - the truth of the moment if you will - is all that is needed to start to break the hypnotism of thought. That in itself may seem far too simple but the experience here is that is the truth.

there's not a lot of people that have constant music in their heads.

Maybe not. And I cannot claim to understand what that must feel like. However there are other things that are constant. I have constant ringing in my ears that often is very loud.

So the exercise here is to start to attend to the flow of thoughts and as we LOOK there is often a tendency for the thought stream to SLOW. This can open the door to a different perception of what is happening.

And as I said in the last message, to start with the "monologue" as you describe it is a great place to start.

And lastly, if you find this exercise unreasonably challenging please let me know as we can come at it in different ways.


With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Hi Alan.

Well, I tend to believe my thoughts because I believe that I’m the one creating them.

Oh you have tinnitus? yeah I have some of that but only when I’m very tired or in very silent environments… I actually like it.

I’m doing this exercise at night, after meditation my mind is calmer so I can observe better.

I will take a couple days with this.

talk to you soon

[Alless]

That’s good Nicholas.

Take your time and thanks for keeping me posted

With love

Alan

[Nicholas]

Using some specific examples from your experience let me know how you go.

Also are you experiencing any reaction to observing thoughts in this way? Any resistance? Any hesitation? Any undue procrastination? Let me know about your reactions to doing this as that might also give us some important clues.

Tell me about your experience in the gap. Is there anything in particular that you notice when in the gap?

going to answer all of them.

so I have to consciously stop all thoughts because if I don't then... well... the music never stops.

what happens is... monologue just keeps appearing. reacting to everything. reacting to the silence. reacting to the exercise.

the monologue feels like a knee jerk reaction. what I do is silence all thoughts and then “be prepared” for the next thought… but my mind just keeps talking.

when for 2-3 seconds it shuts, there's still a whirlwind of thoughts down below that don't really materialize fully, it's like... 1/32 of a thought. but several of them.

feels like my mind doesn't want to stop. yes I know I'm not suppose to stop anything, just look at it... but I don't see nothing happening when I look. music still goes on. the monologue just wants to appear over and over and over and over again...

I also experiment extreme resistance and fatigue when doing this. because it's hard. also... I have trouble focusing on what's happening in the mind, feels like there's a lot of fog so I can't see clearly what's going on in there.

gaps? no gaps.

I thought I will write more things but... that's it actually. nothing different happens over different sessions... :S

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

the monologue just wants to appear over and over and over and over again...

Yes …… it can be so persistent and unrelenting

I also experiment extreme resistance and fatigue

The power of mind can feel overwhelming at times. We will slow this right down to see if that helps.
Please tell me if this is getting too much for you



Just two things to look at today.

what happens is... monologue just keeps appearing. reacting to everything. reacting to the silence. reacting to the exercise

Can you tell me a little more about this reacting? How would you describe what is happening when reacting is noticed?

I also experiment extreme resistance

Can you tell me what this resistance feels like?




When you are experiencing this resistance is there a particular persistent thought appearing Like “I can’t do this!” Or “this is all too hard?” Or some other thought?




Now Nicholas I really want you to take this at a pace that is comfortable for you. There are a number of ways that we can approach this matter of thinking.

So can you please tell me when this is getting too uncomfortable?



With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Please tell me if this is getting too much for you

it’s ok!

Just two things to look at today.

what happens is... monologue just keeps appearing. reacting to everything. reacting to the silence. reacting to the exercise

Can you tell me a little more about this reacting? How would you describe what is happening when reacting is noticed?

I don’t know what to tell you. I focus on the music so I don’t consciously monologue, but then the “voice” just wants to say things, like… on a second plane I’m still thinking, like, about this exercise for example or what I’m going to write here so my mind reacts to that!

I also experiment extreme resistance

Can you tell me what this resistance feels like?

the same feeling you get when studying or working or focusing for long periods of time. dull. tiredness.

also laziness, resistance.

When you are experiencing this resistance is there a particular persistent thought appearing Like “I can’t do this!” Or “this is all too hard?” Or some other thought?

yeah, those and more “I’m too tired” “I need rest”

Now Nicholas I really want you to take this at a pace that is comfortable for you. There are a number of ways that we can approach this matter of thinking.

So can you please tell me when this is getting too uncomfortable?

mmhm is there some way this exercise can be… split in different parts? it feels too… overwhelming too fast to do this. this particular exercise I mean. I could go on, but I feel stuck in this part.

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas,

I am not going to get answer to your post today - had to have unexpected surgery after a mishap. It’s all good and will be back to you tomorrow.

With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

oh hope you are ok!! take care!

hug