Having moments of liberation - wanting more!

[BlueRacoon]

And if you can't investigate it, do you still feel it to be true? If so, what makes it so?

I do feel it to be true as it makes some intellectual sense. It's certainly possible that consciousness is only present "in this moment" when I am present to the moment, but it just seems likely that when I am lost in thought, that *I am* still exists in that moment. So the moment doesn't go away, just because I am wrapped up mentally in something else. The idea that consciousness comes and goes with my grounding in the moment just feels far fetched. Although the idea that time doesn't really exist except as in thoughts seemed far fetched at a point as well.

If I go back to my "self-driving car" analogy, whether I am aware that the car drives itself or I'm wrapped up in trying to drive the car, "I am" still in that present moment, just self-identified in one, and not in the other. And if I allow myself to trust my memory, there are moments other than this one right now, where experiences have happened and I wasn't specifically considering "now" (e.g. the day I married my husband). There is the possibility that my memory is all made up and untrue or that they are all happening now (depending of how moments / time works, that is).

I hope that makes sense to you. It's hard to communicate...

[BlueRacoon]

Above, this in the first paragraph: So the moment doesn't go away.

should have been this: So consciousness doesn't go away...

[Bluejay]

I do feel it to be true as it makes some intellectual sense. It's certainly possible that consciousness is only present "in this moment" when I am present to the moment, but it just seems likely that when I am lost in thought, that *I am* still exists in that moment. So the moment doesn't go away, just because I am wrapped up mentally in something else. The idea that consciousness comes and goes with my grounding in the moment just feels far fetched. Although the idea that time doesn't really exist except as in thoughts seemed far fetched at a point as well.

Remember, we are here only to look at what is there.

If I ask you what the weather is outside and you go check, you only have to look. No deliberation, deduction, or thinking needed :)

If I go back to my "self-driving car" analogy, whether I am aware that the car drives itself or I'm wrapped up in trying to drive the car, "I am" still in that present moment, just self-identified in one, and not in the other. And if I allow myself to trust my memory, there are moments other than this one right now, where experiences have happened and I wasn't specifically considering "now" (e.g. the day I married my husband). There is the possibility that my memory is all made up and untrue or that they are all happening now (depending of how moments / time works, that is).

I hope that makes sense to you. It's hard to communicate...

I hear you!

However, the question here is: What is the thing you call consciousness in the first place?

It seems you are trying to think through this with the assumption that there is something called consciousness. Perhaps look at what is there without going into thought?

As an example, a flat surface with legs underneath is called a table. What is the sensory experience that has the name 'consciousness'?

All the best,
Henri

[BlueRacoon]

What is the sensory experience that has the name 'consciousness'?

Okay - I’m trying not to sidestep the question but it’s hard because I have to use words!

The best answer I have is that it is attention. The continuous thread of varied sensory awarenesses of that which is being attended to (sight/sound/thought); or maybe better is the ability to attend to sensory input.

In DE, there is no separate thing that is consciousness. There are just the senses and thoughts. It is a concept. If I hadn’t read about it, I imagine that I wouldn’t necessarily consider it, especially in the myriad of ways it is conceptualized.

Your thoughts? :-/

[BlueRacoon]

Just read this - in the words of Moshe FeldenKrais:

There is an essential difference between consciousness and awareness, although the borders are not clear in our use of language. I can walk up the stairs of my house, fully conscious of what I am doing, and yet not know how many steps I have climbed. In order to know how many there are I must climb them a second time, pay attention, listen to myself, and count them. Awareness is consciousness together with a realization of what is happening within it or of what is going on within ourselves while we are conscious.

Not that it adds to your question, but it made me realize I have been conflating the two…

[Bluejay]

Okay - I’m trying not to sidestep the question but it’s hard because I have to use words!

No problem. This can be difficult to describe, so let's do our best!

The best answer I have is that it is attention. The continuous thread of varied sensory awarenesses of that which is being attended to (sight/sound/thought); or maybe better is the ability to attend to sensory input.

So this sounds like there is attention and that which is attended to, right?

Where is the boundary between the different sensory inputs and the attention to it?

Where does the seen or heard end and attention start?

And do you feel like this attention is 'you'?

Again, in DE nothing is found, but it is the sense that we are after.

This can be slippery, so some confusion and frustration is to be expected :-)

[BlueRacoon]

Again, in DE nothing is found, but it is the sense that we are after.

This can be slippery, so some confusion and frustration is to be expected :-)

Yes!


That helps (looking for the sense) - using Moshe's descriptions (consciousness, awareness) and my experience, I'd say the sense of consciousness is an energy that I experience in the head. There is a consciousness that is always there (e.g. in Moshe's example of walking up the stairs, possibly thinking of something else but also orienting to the physical work at hand) that is somewhat dull and inactive (with the mind usually in the foreground), and then there is consciousness+awareness, which I experience as more crisp, energetic sense of the now-ness of experience or thought. For example, I could be thinking of the future (which requires consciousness) and also aware that I am doing that (which requires awareness).

The first, consciousness alone, has a sense of "asleep-ness" to it when observed from the present-moment aware state. When awareness is added (present to the moment), there is a felt sense that I experience behind the eyes.

That's my first stab. I'll keep watching and working on that. Thanks for the nudge.

[Bluejay]

It would be best if you could rely just on your own experience and not go to outside sources to say how things are. I understand it can be difficult to put into words, but even clumsily sharing what you see is great. :)

So to explore what you shared:

Is there an entity in you that remembers what Moshe said?

Is there a self that experiences a sense of nowness of experience or thought?

[BlueRacoon]

So to explore what you shared:

Is there an entity in you that remembers what Moshe said?

Is there a self that experiences a sense of nowness of experience or thought?

If I stay away from concepts, then all I have is the experience. And I can say that the experience of being elsewhere (in the Pastor in the future are engrossed in a book or idea) has a different sense than being present, in the moment, and tuned in to the physical senses.

I really can’t separate out a distinct thing that is consciousness or presence. It’s all bundled into the moment. I am 100% clear that there aren’t two things – for example, consciousness, and the senses. So other than a qualitative difference between being present, and being lost in the mind, they are the same thing.

The label consciousness is just that, a label.

[Bluejay]

I really can’t separate out a distinct thing that is consciousness or presence. It’s all bundled into the moment. I am 100% clear that there aren’t two things – for example, consciousness, and the senses. So other than a qualitative difference between being present, and being lost in the mind, they are the same thing.

The label consciousness is just that, a label.

Exactly, consciousness is a mental concept. Experiencing is really the same thing as being conscious of experience.

So re-focusing on the self-illusion:

Is there an entity or self experiencing the moment?

Do you feel any sense of 'me' experiencing?

Cheerio :)
Henri

[BlueRacoon]

Very clear - just like consciousness, it’s a concept. There is only experience.

:-D

[Bluejay]

And what about the two questions? :)

[BlueRacoon]

Is there an entity or self experiencing the moment?

Clearly no - there is only one thing - experience.

Do you feel any sense of 'me' experiencing?

No. There are just the thoughts that pass through that claim ownership (my body, my experience, my whatever). There is no entity separate from experience. At this point, there isn’t even a felt sense of me - it’s just thought. The me/my/mine is just a label / thinking experience. A social construction / agreement. Just like there is no such thing as a library. Just a concept/ an agreement about a building, some people, and some books.

[Bluejay]

That all sounds excellent!

Seeing that everything is experience is one step. And as mentioned before, this needs to sink in on a gut level. When the sense of self can no longer be fabricated, then the insight is clear.

So how do we explore this?

Check during the day where it feels like a sense of self. In other words, where you feel like you can choose, control, be independent from life, and so on.

Now, since this is starting to be very clear to you, you may already know the answer. But as much as possible, you want to look with fresh eyes, even if you know what is there.

Take the next few days to just notice if a sense of self pops up, no matter how small.

Don't dismiss it by seeing through it, but let it be, and write it down to report back here later. Be like a scientist out in nature that is there to observe and not disturb anything. :)

[BlueRacoon]

Don't dismiss it by seeing through it, but let it be, and write it down to report back here later. Be like a scientist out in nature that is there to observe and not disturb anything. :)

Will do! Thanks for the direction!