Ready to cross the Gateless Gate

[JonB]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

It is apparent to me, but merely at the level of the intellect, that there is no me, I or self. The thought “I” is not driving my car, or walking, or thinking. Objects are real, but there is no me to be found.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for insight and guidance to finally know the truth. I am also looking for some sense of support from a community of people on the same trajectory, who can perhaps help this process along, and accelerate my growth. It would also be nice to share any insights and wisdom I’ve gained with others.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

I know this process cannot be forced, so I don’t expect magic and fireworks. But some compassionate guidance—the more blunt and direct the better—would seem to me to be helpful. And I think I need some pointers on how to look directly at my blind spots.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I have been on a serious spiritual path for about 20 years. I’ve read various religious texts, been part of spiritual circling groups, attended multiple silent retreats, including two 10 day Vipassana retreats, 10 years of therapy (in the recent months more one-on-ones with realized teachers) and have seriously practiced self-inquiry for the last few months.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[indranet]

Hi, my name is J.P.

I am happy to guide you in this journey of discovery.

What shall I call you?

Please watch this video. It will help our communication.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

[JonB]

Hi J.P., thank you for offering your help with this. I am so appreciative.

You can call me Jon.

[indranet]

Hi Jon.

Let's begin.


Can you describe, using direct experience, how you know you exist as a separate" I "called Jon?

[JonB]

Can you describe, using direct experience, how you know you exist as a separate" I "called Jon?

Upon examining how I know I exist as a separate self, it seems that I can only exist within the realm of self-referential thought, and in a reactive thought-sensation pattern. Upon close examination, it appears that this body, these thoughts, the actions of the moment, like the typing on this keyboard, are happening and the overlay of an "I" thought seems to claim a very convincing sense of instant ownership.

It really feels like I don't know that I, in fact, exist as a separate self. It just feels like a pattern that I've had to adopt in order to function in the world. But I've gotten so good at it, it feels like I don't know how to see outside of it, if that makes any sense. As if I can understand that I don't exist in a conceptual sense, but behaviourally and perhaps unconsciously, I still function as if I do exist separately.

Man, the more I write about this, the more it feels like one giant mind-fuck. It feels like what I just said above makes just as much sense as saying muhbh bhp hfoh fehowaeihopiwef fhaopihefwh fpohaf hfeoipf fjjasfaej.

[indranet]

Jon,

it feels like one giant mind-fuck.

Yes it is, LOL

It just feels like a pattern that I've had to adopt in order to function in the world.

let's find out if that is true.

Go back to where the sense of I is the strongest, maybe it's in the head or somewhere else. look at the sensations that arise before the mind label is applied.

Do any of those sensations tell you who you are?

Take your time. Rely on careful looking rather than your idea of what's happening.

[JonB]

Do any of those sensations tell you who you are?

Sensations of tension in the solar plexus are predominant. There is also awareness of sensations in the shoulders and jaw.

Nothing that arises at the level of sensation tells me who I am. Sensations merely arise and pass away, awareness registers them, and thoughts jump in to narrativize the experience as "mine.

[indranet]

Nothing that arises at the level of sensation tells me who I am. Sensations merely arise and pass away, awareness registers them, and thoughts jump in to narrativize the experience as "mine.

This is good, now look at action. Making tea, eating , walking , talking.

Is there a doer?

[JonB]

This is such a great question.

It occurred to me while driving recently, that the thought "I" was not driving the car. Then...silence. Then thoughts turn on again.

Right now, while typing, it's clear that the thought "I" is not typing. But thoughts so quickly try to make sense of the whole thing, which they can't. But the seeking of answers seems to have a life of its own.

I just made coffee. I had to stand up from my computer to do so, and halfway to the coffee maker, the question arose "who is doing the walking to the coffee maker? Did the thought "I" decide to get up and move? No. It seems that everything is instinctual somehow...yet still...thoughts try to make sense of it. It's as if this sense making apparatus doesn't know how to shut the hell up. And then I notice a tension, as if I'm making the sense making into a problem. Then, a tired sense of confusion.

Thank you for your help, J.P.

[indranet]

Jon,

And then I notice a tension, as if I'm making the sense making into a problem. Then, a tired sense of confusion.

You don't have to worry about what the mind is doing, just notice its activity. The mind will never stop.

Relax a little with the exercises, just make it a playful observation. Just go through your day looking.

When you feel clear about movement and action, you can look at if there is any control of intention.

You are doing well with this, there is no rush. Everything gets illuminated by dispassionate looking.

[JonB]

I appreciate this insight--thank you so much. There is a sense of relief.

I will keep looking, and as insights arise, I will write back.

[JonB]

Hi J.P.,

There has been a certain sense of ease since your last reply, which to the mind makes little sense, because life has been more challenging lately than ever. But I’m noticing a sense of expansiveness in awareness.

The sense of a me doing the thinking, moving and daily activities still feels intact, though my investigations lead me to see right through it. It’s strange how it still carries on so convincingly in spite of the recognition of its illusory nature.

But I’ve eased up a bit. Finding humor and lightness in the investigation.

When you feel clear about movement and action, you can look at if there is any control of intention.

As I examine where intentions arise, they, like thoughts, seem to have a life of their own. It feels like it’s time for me to give up on this sense of being the one in control, but I am watching my mind relentlessly search for the answer to “how do so let go.” lol. This seems counterproductive, as it appears to me that the thinking mind will have no part in the letting go process.

I just feeling like saying, “fuck this shit! I give up!”
Hahaha.

Really curious to hear your response, J.P.

Thank you for your kind and patient guidance

[indranet]

But I’m noticing a sense of expansiveness in awareness.

I like this development.

it still carries on so convincingly in spite of the recognition of its illusory nature.

It will always carry on, you don't need to stop, deny, or resist it.

appears to me that the thinking mind will have no part in the letting go process.

That is correct.

Keep going with this , look at the nature of thought. Can you predict your next thought? Can you identify where it arises from or when it arises? Can you control or predict when it leaves? What space does it occupy, inside your head or outside?
Does it have a size or shape?

“fuck this shit! I give up!”

HaHa ,that may be closer to how this works than you imagine

[JonB]

Keep going with this , look at the nature of thought. Can you predict your next thought? Can you identify where it arises from or when it arises? Can you control or predict when it leaves? What space does it occupy, inside your head or outside?
Does it have a size or shape?

I cannot predict the next thought.

I can’t identify where they come from, and when they arise, although concentrated meditation allows me to pick up on their blurry edges as they’re appearing. Or so it seems.

I can’t control or predict when it leaves. Although setting a reminder on my phone seems to convince me that I’ll be thinking about something important at a future time.

In terms of the space thoughts occupy, this really messes me up…it’s just so trippy. They feel like they’re both inside and outside. Thought would say inside. Experience says “Ha!! Nothing is what you think!!

In terms of size and shape, thoughts seem to have associated sensations that feel expansive or contracted. For instance, an incredibly frustrating situation arose for me today among my family, and the angry thoughts had an accompanying sense of expansion. But then I felt like it was inappropriate to feels this way, and a bit of shame and a sense of contraction arose.

The question of thoughts being inside or outside though…man…that could be something to really examine further.

[indranet]

Jon,

They feel like they’re both inside and outside. Thought would say inside. Experience says “Ha!! Nothing is what you think!!

Do you still feel there is a thinker?