Unsure what this is?

[ankitawho]

I remember some time ago you said there are no practices to do but it seems like just seeing, without the experience of looking with eyes, would be a good thing to practice on a daily basis.

The most important thing about seeing is that it effortlessly happens, and sees whatever meets it. If the direct experience ever becomes coming across something such as 'my eyes', let that be seen as it is too.
This seeing is all that has ever been, we are just popping all bubbles of made up stuff around it.

Short answer: yes, good practice -- lets keep seeing into DE for everything!

Yes, I just see sky, no eyes anywhere in the DE.

This is a biiiig insight, please see again, and again and again and sit with it. See the sensations the seeing of this attracts -- how do you feel? How does it feel to SEE that there is no observer? Not how it feels to plan to see, to plan to practice seeing, but seeing right now: wow, only skies, no eyes!

If there is a shift in sensation, its a sign that it has "clicked" outside of intellect. Without it, its still just the mind in its own games just replacing regular beliefs with spiritual beliefs, so pay close attention to how seeing FEELS.

Seeing, without adding labels and thought, is such a hard habit to break!

A strong pull to this habit indeed!!!

Does the one eye closed thing that kids do related to their view in some way?

My guess would be as good as yours! Kids find the most fascinating, curious ways to express themselves, haha. Its no more or no less "seeing" as it is looking out from "both eyes", one eye, eyes closed or no eye. All the same, all simply what is.

Lets practice seeing into the direct experience of sensations one more time as we mentioned we would:

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cold drink. When you touch the can, what describes your experience more accurately:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - just a sensation labelled “cold”?
With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear.

Are there two sensations – one labelled “cold” and one labelled “in the fingers” – or just one labelled “coldness in the fingers”? Where exactly are “fingers” located (with eyes closed)? Is “fingers” a location or a label for sensations?

[Stacyg888]

It has taken me a few days to reply as I have been trying the exercises but without much success.

No shift when I look at the sky. I get caught up in thought again, usually something like "I wonder what I should be feeling or seeing". When I shifted my focus toward "wow only skies, no eyes" I immediately went to thought and felt a little sick in my stomach. Do you have some tips please?

Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cold drink. When you touch the can, what describes your experience more accurately:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - just a sensation labelled “cold”?
With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear.

Are there two sensations – one labelled “cold” and one labelled “in the fingers” – or just one labelled “coldness in the fingers”? Where exactly are “fingers” located (with eyes closed)? Is “fingers” a location or a label for sensations?

I did this one a few times before I could answer b. The coldness comes from my fingers first and blends to the cold can within a few seconds. Once the blending has happened, coldness is just there, not specifically in fingers or the can. With eyes closed, fingers is a label for sensations.

Ankita, I don't honestly know what I am even saying here. I don't think I get how to do DE.

[ankitawho]

It has taken me a few days to reply as I have been trying the exercises but without much success.

Everything we need is in this sentence -- what is success here please? What is the expectation?

Success is not some kind of merging with everything, dissolution, etc.
When thoughts came up, you noticed the thoughts, and that is success, because that indeed was your DE. Notice how wanting it to be any different is just a spiritual flavour of the control game again... The do-er... " *I* am not *doing* this right".

Instead of seeing "wow only skies, no eyes", see how quickly thoughts gain momentum to overlay and hijack the narrative. Thoughts are DE too, just not their content. They too are powered by the same beauty that powers the "only skies, no eyes" experience. We paint them as the villain but in all neutrality, what is a thought? Do you know what a thought is? Have you ever met it completely, without judgement?

In this process, they can even be our best friends to immediately point out our hidden expectations, sometimes a little too brutally.

So when they come up, notice that they too are simply what is, simply your DE. They are gonna be here for a while :)

Take a moment and please write to me what the story is around the "end goal" of these exercises, and how we will know that we have "arrived"?

The coldness comes from my fingers first and blends to the cold can within a few seconds. Once the blending has happened, coldness is just there, not specifically in fingers or the can.

Good looking!
Do you doubt this experience?

A great time to practise buttchair again: Notice the sensation where the butt meets the chair -- where is the sensation exactly? Is it confined to any boundaries, any body, any chair? Is it contained? Where does it end or begin?

And now lets apply the same line of enquiry to the solidified, rigid sensation behind the eyes, inside the skull: is it really confined inside the skull, or anything? Weird huh...

Really recommend Pernille's channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA9aKOx ... 50JTO4bCr8

[Stacyg888]

[quote]What is the expectation?[/quote] That a shift in perception will happen and my experience will change to non duality, all as one, not separation. Also that the voice in my head will stop or at least calm down on the constant narrative.

[quote]Take a moment and please write to me what the story is around the "end goal" of these exercises, and how we will know that we have "arrived"?[/quote] I will know when I have arrived when I finally get it, the penny will drop and old (false!) beliefs will fall away just as easily as the belief in Santa fell away when I came to know that truth. The story around the exercises is that they are leading me to experience for myself that my senses lie to me and keep me trapped in false beliefs.

[quote]Do you doubt this experience?[/quote] Haha yes! How did you know? 😜 It seemed that the can was cold first so there should have been cold sensed there first, yet it was sensed in my fingers first. I suppose that actually does make sense though as I personally can't feel what the can is feeling, right?

[quote]Buttchair - where is the sensation exactly? Is it confined to any boundaries, any body, any chair? Is it contained? Where does it end or begin?[/quote] The sensation is in the region of my butt but it's not clear where the feeling starts or ends, it seems to just fade out, it is not contained in a neat little boundary.

[quote]is it really confined inside the skull, or anything? Weird huh...[/quote] There is no rigid, solidified sensation but a broader sense of seeing. However, it still seems to come from behind my eyes or at least my head. [color=#0000FF]But that is how we see, isn't it? The consciousness contained in this body looks out from behind the eyes. Is that wrong? (a false belief)[/color]

I came across Pernille's channel when I was down the rabbit hole last week. Yesterday I listened again and got that thought overlays my DE. If I can drop thoughts, I will have a purer experience. But somehow just dropping thoughts is easier said than done. For now I am noticing and observing thoughts, ever hopeful that will help shift my perception somehow.

Thanks for your help as always, Ankita ❤

[ankitawho]

Teachings and words are tricky because while these expectations are valid and make sense, there is an inherent idea of it feeling like we are going from point A to point B, as if this is our DE now but it will be something else, something purer later.
The tricky part is that when all is dropped, it is this teaching that remains standing in the way.

You are looking in DE, you are describing DE to me perfectly, and the doubt is not rooted in old ways of life as we would expect, but rather in the teaching itself that brought you here, that taught you that DE should feel a certain way that isn't aligning to what you are seeing in DE.

I find a good approach to resolving this is not to throw out previously helpful concepts, but rather consider: "Is it possible that my mind is oversimplifying the teaching? Or misunderstanding it?" Give yourself the opportunity and permission to embrace your truthful DE, instead of squinting to adjust it to what the mind has made of what it has heard and read.

It seemed that the can was cold first so there should have been cold sensed there first, yet it was sensed in my fingers first. I suppose that actually does make sense though as I personally can't feel what the can is feeling, right?

Yes -- but look at the analysis going on here. The experience was coldness, the how/why/where is all thought content, and then making sense of it is further thought content, not DE.
Again: thoughts are included, their content is NOT. Identify when their content is staining DE and demanding your attention to give it more value than DE itself. Does this make sense?

The sensation is in the region of my butt but it's not clear where the feeling starts or ends, it seems to just fade out, it is not contained in a neat little boundary.

Yes!

There is no rigid, solidified sensation but a broader sense of seeing. However, it still seems to come from behind my eyes or at least my head. But that is how we see, isn't it? The consciousness contained in this body looks out from behind the eyes. Is that wrong?

What is consciousness please? And again: no right or wrong, only DE. In direct experience, where is consciousness? what is it? Is it a concept picked up and learned by the mind? How do we know it is contained inside the skull, looks out from behind the eyes? Is this not all just thought content?

Radical DE, question everything, specially teachings that seem the most reliable. Not because the teachings are wrong, but because the mind will absolutely co-opt and make it into another invisible obstacle to seeing.

Yesterday I listened again and got that thought overlays my DE.

Uh-uh ☝🏼 Thought *content* overlays DE, thoughts themselves are very much a part of direct experience. They arise just as sounds and shapes and smells do. It is what they say that carries us away into lalaland, that is never directly experienced, only imagined. But the arising of a thought itself is very much a direct experience.
See the subtle mind distortion/misinterpretation here? This is holding back your freedom! Trust only your own DE!!!

If I can drop thoughts, I will have a purer experience. But somehow just dropping thoughts is easier said than done.

No thought slander in this house! "If I can drop thoughts..." -- notice the doership here, the heavy burden and responsibility that you have just given to yourself... Culture normalizes setting 'goals' like this, but it is almost abusive to your innocence. As if right now, you are doing things wrong by having thoughts, but can you control their arising? We have seen there is no 'you', how will 'you' manage this daunting task? And when you can't manage it, it will begin another cycle of frustration, guilt and shaming.
It's easier said than done because this is lalaland, an imagined fantasy, and not your DE. DE is effortless, not strained. You don't have to 'do' DE. It is happening, and coming to your notice.

I'm with you every step of the way, lets look into the content of thoughts that doubt our DE and call them out. Love always ❤️

[Stacyg888]

Thoughts are included, their content is NOT. Identify when their content is staining DE and demanding your attention to give it more value than DE itself. Does this make sense?

That makes sense. I get caught up in "am I doing DE right" and not knowing if I am right about thoughts giving DE more value or just being thoughts.

What is consciousness please? And again: no right or wrong, only DE. In direct experience, where is consciousness? what is it? Is it a concept picked up and learned by the mind? How do we know it is contained inside the skull, looks out from behind the eyes? Is this not all just thought content?

Firstly, I should clarify that I deducted that I see out of my eyes since I can't see when I close them, haha. You said once that eyes are just a concept (I think?) so I don't really understand how that can be.

Consciousness is like the ether - everywhere. It makes the world what it is, it makes plants, animals and humans grow and develop as they do. And some of it is contained in this body as "Stacy" with her skills, personality traits and so on. And yes, I see how that is probably all thought content but that's my current understanding.

See the subtle mind distortion/misinterpretation here? This is holding back your freedom! Trust only your own DE!!!

Right, I see. But it is so subtle, easy to miss. Like buttchair - if you hadn't pointed to that, I never would have realised that, and there is doubt in my DE when I do.

Let's look into the content of thoughts that doubt our DE and call them out

Will do.

Ankita, I have had 6 months of recognising there is no self in here but still I identify with one. That is what I want to drop or experience differently. How ???

[ankitawho]

Firstly, I should clarify that I deducted that I see out of my eyes since I can't see when I close them, haha. You said once that eyes are just a concept (I think?) so I don't really understand how that can be.

When you close your eyes, does it cut off "seeing"?
Or do you "see" the back of the eyelids? The darkness?
Eyes are a label, a concept to which "seeing" is attributed to, and there is nothing to understand about this. If you hold a belief that some beliefs are right and some are wrong, then we aren't looking. They are all just beliefs, which is not our game.

Consciousness is like the ether - everywhere. It makes the world what it is, it makes plants, animals and humans grow and develop as they do. And some of it is contained in this body as "Stacy" with her skills, personality traits and so on. And yes, I see how that is probably all thought content but that's my current understanding.

What would happen if you were to not hold on to this current understanding? What remains without it?
What do you mean by "probably" thought content? Is there doubt here? Why?

Ankita, I have had 6 months of recognising there is no self in here but still I identify with one. That is what I want to drop or experience differently. How ???

I hear you, and everytime this is expressed from you, the answer is right in there in the question you ask.

There is a tendency to believe thoughts, buy into them, even when they are seen as just thought.
I would like you to pick any thought from the thought stream that must be happening as you read this, and catch it and freeze it there. What does that thought say?
Is what the thought saying relevant?
Does the thought know what is saying?

The problem is not the thought. The problem is that the content of it says there's a 'you' that is thinking it. Are you?

If time allows, lets try to come here everyday for the next 7 days. Everyday, pls dedicate 5 mins to "seeing" and reporting here. Simply "see" what is going on, categorize it into the 6 categories, and see if there is anything else apart from those 6 categories, and then just type here. Pls do so for 3 activities. I will be waiting & reading ❤️

[Stacyg888]

When you close your eyes, does it cut off "seeing"? Or do you "see" the back of the eyelids? The darkness?

Oh true, yes of course there is still seeing.

What would happen if you were to not hold on to this current understanding? What remains without it? What do you mean by "probably" thought content? Is there doubt here? Why?

To let go of that understanding would be to drop a belief that is keeping me trapped. Yes, there is doubt because it seems that everything is thought but I don't get how it can be. I am releasing a need to try and understand any of this because I expect trying to understand is exactly what is keeping me trapped.

This is a busy time for me as we are away with close friends for their daughter's wedding but I will post every day that I can. The wedding is tomorrow so possibly not then.

Thoughts/DE:

Hungry, should eat something, it's still a few hours before dinner. Noticing buttchair, loving that I can't pinpoint exactly where it is.

Watching fingers move over the keypad yet there's no me in here. How bizarre.

Tasting hot cross bun, it would have been better with butter.

Looking out the window, seeing the beach and beautiful hills, trying not to label what I see but I do.

Someone is moving grass nearby, I hope they'll finish soon.

Is that what you meant?

Question: I am reading Quantum Body, Deepak Chopra's new book. He says in it that organised thoughts come from our brain but that's not right, is it?

[ankitawho]

Hungry, should eat something, it's still a few hours before dinner. Noticing buttchair, loving that I can't pinpoint exactly where it is.

Watching fingers move over the keypad yet there's no me in here. How bizarre.

Tasting hot cross bun, it would have been better with butter.

Looking out the window, seeing the beach and beautiful hills, trying not to label what I see but I do.

Someone is moving grass nearby, I hope they'll finish soon.

Is that what you meant?

Yes, but please break them down into lists of DE. The only 6 categories in DE are:
Seeing
Hearing
Sensing
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

So now, your first activity is: "Hungry, should eat something, it's still a few hours before dinner. Noticing buttchair, loving that I can't pinpoint exactly where it is."
In this case:
Hungry = simply sensing
"Should eat something" = simply thought arising (content irrelevant)
"Still a few hours before dinner" = simply thought arising (content irrelevant)
Noticing buttchair = simply sensing
"loving that I can't pinpoint exactly where it is" = simply thought arising (content irrelevant)

Next activity: "Watching fingers move over the keypad yet there's no me in here. How bizarre."
Watching fingers = simply seeing
"there's no me in here" = simply thought arising (content irrelevant)
"how bizzare" = simply thought arising (content irrelevant)

Our objective is to draw the attention repeatedly to our direct experience, untangle thought stories.
Please let me know if this is clear?

Question: I am reading Quantum Body, Deepak Chopra's new book. He says in it that organised thoughts come from our brain but that's not right, is it?

Look into your direct experience of an organised thought and tell me? :) And also try to say why Deepak might choose to word it this way, and if any wording can ever be wrong or right?

Enjoy the wedding celebrations ❤️🙏🏼

[Stacyg888]

Thanks Ankita, the wedding was very special ❤

Question: does experiencing the world through DE only, lead us to seeing true reality (or whatever it is we are working towards in these processes)?

Okay, let me try again.

Seeing orange water bottle, blue water bottle, table, furniture
Hearing laughter, a mower again, the dishwasher running, a motorbike
Sensing discomfort in my leg, buttchair, bra is uncomfortable
Tasting chips eaten a few minutes ago
Smelling nothing
Thoughts Arising (but not their content) - a thought of what else I would be doing if I wasn't doing this, thought of physical discomfort, thought of being tired but can't sleep

It seems so clear when you do it but there is doubt again that I have done it "right" yet.

Look into your direct experience of an organised thought and tell me? :) And also try to say why Deepak might choose to word it this way, and if any wording can ever be wrong or right?

Thoughts arise - that they are organised is just a thought. I'd say Deepak said it that way because that's how most people would understand it. Wording can never be wrong or right because it it all just more thought.

Another question: is there a shortcut to seeing true reality? One way that is the one that gets more people through the Gate than any other way?

[Stacyg888]

Seeing - people, Ben he's, escalator
Hearing - voices, machinery, announcements
Sensing - buttchair, full tummy
Tasting - chocolate coffee
Smelling - nothing
Thoughts Arising (but not their content) - thoughts seem to go quiet whenever I want to observe them

[Stacyg888]

Oops. Not Ben he's, I didn't proofread properly should be benches

[ankitawho]

Thanks Ankita, the wedding was very special ❤

😊

Question: does experiencing the world through DE only, lead us to seeing true reality (or whatever it is we are working towards in these processes)?

Not sure I understand the question.
Experiencing the world through direct experience IS seeing true reality, there is no time gap for it to lead to somewhere else in the future.

Thoughts arise - that they are organised is just a thought. I'd say Deepak said it that way because that's how most people would understand it. Wording can never be wrong or right because it it all just more thought.

🎯 Nailed it!!! Amazing! Did you turn to your DE for the answer?

Another question: is there a shortcut to seeing true reality? One way that is the one that gets more people through the Gate than any other way?

I find people hold resistance in different ways to different degrees. Some are okay to realise they are not the do-er, but cannot fathom not being the witness. Ultimately, this is a process that is doing itself, so there's no real way for it to not see itself through completely, and enquiry is the greatest shortcut. We probe using different questions/pointers from several angles to gauge where the most stickiness of identity lies for someone.

Now on to exercises:

Seeing orange water bottle, blue water bottle, table, furniture
Hearing laughter, a mower again, the dishwasher running, a motorbike
Sensing discomfort in my leg, buttchair, bra is uncomfortable
Tasting chips eaten a few minutes ago
Smelling nothing
Thoughts Arising (but not their content) - a thought of what else I would be doing if I wasn't doing this, thought of physical discomfort, thought of being tired but can't sleep

Yes, but:

bra is uncomfortable

Notice how this is a sensation and a thought saying it is uncomfortable -- very important!

Seeing - people, Ben he's, escalator
Hearing - voices, machinery, announcements
Sensing - buttchair, full tummy
Tasting - chocolate coffee
Smelling - nothing
Thoughts Arising (but not their content) - thoughts seem to go quiet whenever I want to observe them

One feedback I have here is that if we go one by one to the senses and see what they are doing and report that, it directs attention to that specific sense gate right now but doesn't help us in day to day life when attention is too deep into the do-ing/thinking.
What we want to do is start seeing through our daily activities and dissolving them.

So step 1: pick an activity.
Maybe my activity right now is writing this note to you.
Step 2: break down only this specific activity to its absolute fundamental subactivities
Step 3: break these subactivities down to DE

Eg:
Activity: writing this note to you
- watching my fingers move over the keyboard: simply seeing shapes of my fingers, colours, images on screen
- feeling my fingers hit the keyboard: simply sensation
- feeling that my laptop is getting warm: simply sensation
- birds chirping outside the window: simply sound
- "i should hurry for work": simply a thought arising

Another activity could be: drinking water
☝🏼 Could you try drinking water and reporting that activity in DE?

Look through as many as possible during the day, but for our practice, report breakdowns for 3 activities in one go.

As you finish reporting, ask yourself: "Is there anything else going on apart from seeing/hearing/sensing/ smelling/ tasting/ thought arising? ANYTHING at all??? Is there any other experience to be experienced???"

[Stacyg888]

Experiencing the world through direct experience IS seeing true reality, there is no time gap for it to lead to somewhere else in the future.

Understood.

Did you turn to your DE for the answer?

Not sure it was DE, I just seemed to know.

One feedback I have here is that if we go one by one to the senses and see what they are doing and report that, it directs attention to that specific sense gate right now but doesn't help us in day to day life when attention is too deep into the do-ing/thinking.

Yes, that's exactly what's happening. Will turning to senses frequently throughout the day be beneficial?

Activity: drinking coffee

This just got freaky !!! Watched a hand reach for the cup, it wasn't "my" hand
Sensed hot in the cup and the fingers - simply sensation
Seeing colour of skin, colour surrounding the coffee - simply seeing
Lifted cup to mouth, sensed hot on the tongue, felt the warmth down my throat - simply sensation (lifting cup to mouth - is that simply action?)
Tasted the coffee - simply tasting

Activity: typing this note

Watching fingers move over the keyboard - again a sense of not "my" fingers
Fingers touching the smooth screen - simply sensation
A thought arising of what or how intelligence is finding the correct letters
Buttchair - an amusing thought arose that my butt is growing now that I can't tell exactly where that sensation starts or ends
Hand rubs face and runs fingers through hair - again a strange sensation of not my face or fingers

Activity: washing dishes

Hot water - simply pleasant sensation
Washing of cups and plates - again this seems to be an action in addition to the sensation?
Hearing the water running - simply hearing, leads to a memory arising of a waterfall recently seen
Hearing the clock ticking and a hum in the air - simple awareness of other sounds outside of the dishwashing experience

Is there anything else going on apart from seeing/hearing/sensing/ smelling/ tasting/ thought arising? ANYTHING at all??? Is there any other experience to be experienced???"

All I can tell is there are the sensations and thoughts arising in and around the sensations, the sensations seem to lead to thoughts about the sensations

Hopefully this post will give you some insights into my stickiness :) Thanks Ankita 😊

[ankitawho]

Will turning to senses frequently throughout the day be beneficial?

Absolutely, it is the only thing we do here: keep coming back to what already is, repeatedly! DE all the way.

lifting cup to mouth - is that simply action?

Washing of cups and plates - again this seems to be an action in addition to the sensation?

There's no "simply action" in our list of 6 things that make up DE. That's because it is not fundamental. Lifting cup to mouth is simply seeing moving shapes and colours of cup/hand, before thought jumps in to say "It is being moved, work is being done". Feeling the cup on the lips is simply sensation. There might even be a simply smell :)
Similarly, washing of cups & plates too is simply seeing moving shapes of dishes. Simply hearing sounds. Is there anything more?

Buttchair - an amusing thought arose that my butt is growing now that I can't tell exactly where that sensation starts or ends
Hand rubs face and runs fingers through hair - again a strange sensation of not my face or fingers

Good!

All I can tell is there are the sensations and thoughts arising in and around the sensations, the sensations seem to lead to thoughts about the sensations

Yes! And there is no "I" amidst any of these sensations and thoughts. But keep your eyes peeled: "Is there ANYTHING else going on that's not these?"

There's an opening here. I invite you to get more refined in practice by incorporating two things:
1. Whenever a few thoughts arise, look at them in isolation, and repeat to yourself: "They are all equally empty". It doesn't matter if the thought is about a small chore or seems to be a profound insight. Notice that both are just chatter, commentary on top of what-is. I often write "thought arising -- content irrelevant" because it immediately puts a stop to the new lalaland story thought was going to pull us into.
Notice if doing so feels abrupt, or violating, or if it brings up any sensations. This is a sign that a part of you sees thoughts as valuable and identifies with them.

2. When describing sensations, notice when adjectives precede them. "Strange sensation": this was a neutral sensation before thought judged it as strange. The sense of self hides under these subtle, flimsy covers too!

Doing great ❤️ Pleased to see.