LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There’s no separate self, which is experiencing holding suffering, etc. there is only things happening without the center who has to deal with all the things.
What are you looking for at LU?
Support and guidance for the process of liberation. I m looking for opportunities to exchange with people with the same interests, learning from others and using all possible resources find liberation.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help for self help. Being like a mirror and helping me to look at the right places. Someone to help me find out what I’m trying to avoid/where I am unconsciously trying to avoid to look. I’m looking for exchange to help me to uncover shadow material.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Beginner
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10
Beginner looking for liberation
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
Hello, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read and respond to the following points.
1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.
2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.
3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know or ask questions if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2
And:
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.
5. This process is not about uncovering or resolving/getting help with shadow material. That might happen indirectly, but the process is focused ONLY on recognizing that there is no separate self in control of things. Knowing that, are you still motivated for this process?
Warmly,
Elad
1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.
2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.
3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know or ask questions if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2
And:
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.
5. This process is not about uncovering or resolving/getting help with shadow material. That might happen indirectly, but the process is focused ONLY on recognizing that there is no separate self in control of things. Knowing that, are you still motivated for this process?
Warmly,
Elad
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
Hi Elad,
Thank for your reply. Everything clear and appreciated.Im happy to be guided from you and I’m looking forward to it.
This is already a primary priority for me, so posting Here every day shouldn’t be a problem.
So let’s get the things started!
Best Johannes
Thank for your reply. Everything clear and appreciated.Im happy to be guided from you and I’m looking forward to it.
This is already a primary priority for me, so posting Here every day shouldn’t be a problem.
So let’s get the things started!
Best Johannes
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
Hi Johannes, great, let's start!
In your direct experience when you look to what is Johannes, what is the separate self, what do you find?
In your direct experience when you look to what is Johannes, what is the separate self, what do you find?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
I can’t find anything. However there is a kind on identification coming and going, really strange. The are sensation in the body which seems to trigger it.
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
Okay!I can’t find anything. However there is a kind on identification coming and going, really strange. The are sensation in the body which seems to trigger it.
1) Describe the difference between the identification being there and not being there. As precise as possible.
2) The sensations in the body, are any of those "a self" or Johannes?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
1) Without identification is like being in a flow state, there a sensation, ideas and sight coming up and movement of the body are just happening, without one being in charge. Identication seems to be mind based and it’s like a reflection of what just happened.
2) No, there is no label on it. Strangely the sensations (at the moment contraction) feel somehow disturbing.
2) No, there is no label on it. Strangely the sensations (at the moment contraction) feel somehow disturbing.
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
Got it!
So looking at direct experience here and now, can you find a self anywhere at all?
A "sense of self" (an idea of self plus sensations) comes and goes, but is it more then an illusion, is it actually a seperate self controlling things?
Related questions:
Do you control thought?
Do you control movement?
Do you control what is sensed?
Do you control attention?
Please look at each question freshly and answer separately, even if you have a preconceived answer.
So looking at direct experience here and now, can you find a self anywhere at all?
A "sense of self" (an idea of self plus sensations) comes and goes, but is it more then an illusion, is it actually a seperate self controlling things?
Related questions:
Do you control thought?
Do you control movement?
Do you control what is sensed?
Do you control attention?
Please look at each question freshly and answer separately, even if you have a preconceived answer.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
No, there is no self in here and now. Can’t find it.
My mind is just asking: If there is no self, what else is here? There are things going on, aren’t they?!
There is no self controlling anything. The question of control is only arising in the aftersense.
- No, thought arise without control
- No, movement does just happen
- No, senses work without a me
- I’m not sure about attention.
My mind is just asking: If there is no self, what else is here? There are things going on, aren’t they?!
There is no self controlling anything. The question of control is only arising in the aftersense.
- No, thought arise without control
- No, movement does just happen
- No, senses work without a me
- I’m not sure about attention.
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
No, there is no self in here and now. Can’t find it.
My mind is just asking: If there is no self, what else is here? There are things going on, aren’t they?!
There is no self controlling anything. The question of control is only arising in the aftersense.
- No, thought arise without control
- No, movement does just happen
- No, senses work without a me
- I’m not sure about attention.
My mind is just asking: If there is no self, what else is here? There are things going on, aren’t they?!
There is no self controlling anything. The question of control is only arising in the aftersense.
- No, thought arise without control
- No, movement does just happen
- No, senses work without a me
- I’m not sure about attention.
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
"My mind is just asking: If there is no self, what else is here? There are things going on, aren’t they?!"
This inquiry will not explain the mystery of this/life/the whole :) I'd be skeptical to anything that does - beyond useful tools/theories/stories/mythologies etc. in the relative sense for every day use. This inquiry is all about making it clear that there is no separate self so we are more available to directly experience the mystery.
"There is no self controlling anything. The question of control is only arising in the aftersense."
Right on.
"- No, thought arise without control
- No, movement does just happen
- No, senses work without a me"
Right.
"- I’m not sure about attention."
Spend more time with attention then. Sit still and just let it be seen how attention shifts and look if you/a separate self, separate form it, is controlling it.
Also, look at choice do you control choice? For example if I say "do you want an ice cream or a cake?" Whatever the answer is that comes, where did it come from?
This inquiry will not explain the mystery of this/life/the whole :) I'd be skeptical to anything that does - beyond useful tools/theories/stories/mythologies etc. in the relative sense for every day use. This inquiry is all about making it clear that there is no separate self so we are more available to directly experience the mystery.
"There is no self controlling anything. The question of control is only arising in the aftersense."
Right on.
"- No, thought arise without control
- No, movement does just happen
- No, senses work without a me"
Right.
"- I’m not sure about attention."
Spend more time with attention then. Sit still and just let it be seen how attention shifts and look if you/a separate self, separate form it, is controlling it.
Also, look at choice do you control choice? For example if I say "do you want an ice cream or a cake?" Whatever the answer is that comes, where did it come from?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
I spend sometime observing attention. No there is no separate self in attention or even controlling attention. Attention jumps around (is totally depending on external factors) and it does settle over a while. It’s not in control.
Choice is a weird thing. Its untracable, It seems to come from nowhere, like thoughts.
Choice is a weird thing. Its untracable, It seems to come from nowhere, like thoughts.
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
I spend sometime observing attention. No there is no separate self in attention or even controlling attention. Attention jumps around (is totally depending on external factors) and it does settle over a while. It’s not in control.
Choice is a weird thing. Its untracable, It seems to come from nowhere, like thoughts.
Exactly. So how does seeing this effect every day life, the way of experiencing feelings or interactions with others?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
Also, given that choice comes out of nowhere, do you have free will?
In the next ten seconds lift your right hand two times. Or not. Whatever was chosen and done, where did it come from? Is there a chooser?
In the next ten seconds lift your right hand two times. Or not. Whatever was chosen and done, where did it come from? Is there a chooser?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Beginner looking for liberation
This seems that things are just happening without anyone in charge. Feelings do arise, interactions happening …
About free will
I don’t think there is free will. At least I can’t find it. The I sense/the me is kind of commenting it, but is not in charge or in controlling. The decision to move my hand or not is always „pre-done“ There is no way to get n front of it.
About free will
I don’t think there is free will. At least I can’t find it. The I sense/the me is kind of commenting it, but is not in charge or in controlling. The decision to move my hand or not is always „pre-done“ There is no way to get n front of it.
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