Bring it on

[PatrickM]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The sense of 'i' or 'me' that appears so frequently in thoughts and seems to be running the show is actually a false perspective. Once that false sense of self falls away then the truth of it all will become the predominant way of being.

What are you looking for at LU?
I've been meditating a lot over the past few years and while it has been fruitful and rewarding, I am hoping for something a bit more direct that will cut through all the conditioning and expectations of the false sense of self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I think I'm hoping for insight into a more direct path along with help navigating blind spots or any de-railing tendencies (doubt). I don't have anyone around who is on a similar path so I think a guided conversation would also help normalize this entire process and keep it moving forward.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I had a self-development and therapy phase in my late thirties that lasted a few years. That naturally led to reading 'The Power of Now' and that was my entry point into spirituality. But I was still trying to solve it all intellectually and I was probably seeking to just feel better about life and myself.

Then about five years ago I got into meditation and I feel like that is when I was officially all-in and willing to see what is beyond the ego. I started with 'The Mind Illuminated' but quickly moved onto a style that was more open, like putting attention on the simple feeling of existence. About four years ago I started experimenting with meditating more than I thought I was capable of, two hours a day or so. Shortly after starting that I had an experience where I felt an extraordinary, undeniable sense of okayness in my chest area. It was much stronger and more real then any emotion I've ever felt, and it was also different somehow, as if it was not built from human emotions. It lasted a half day and I interpreted it as proof of "something else" or evidence of what is underneath the false sense of self.

Since then I have been meditating 1-2 hours a day, but also with occasional patches where meditation feels forced so I take a couple weeks off. I've gone through stretches where I work on concentration and will get piti/sukha arising during sessions -- but eventually I find concentration practice too rigid and will go back to something like just sitting. When I'm meditating frequently I usually feel different throughout the rest of the day -- there is a softness to the world and to "me". Visually the world will also look different, like sharper or more vivid, and nature is saturated and overflowing with something like perfectness.

That's probably what sustains my practice lately, but I also feel like it has me in a loop of chasing pleasant states, both in meditation and off the cushion. Lately I am becoming more conscious of the "doer" and the "meditator" and have been questioning the perspective of the one seeking enlightenment. I've experimented with self-inquiry over the past few years but it has never lasted for me, it seems to trigger the ego and all its intellectualizing and that leads me to dropping it. But I'm drawn to its directness and it feels like a natural next step for me, that is probably what has led me here.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Windaway]

Dear Patrick,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. It’s great to see you here!
My name is David, and I’ll be glad to assist in exploring your experience.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do so as well.

What time zone are you in?

I’m in the indochina time —GMT +7

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

[PatrickM]

Hi David, good to meet you!

Thanks so much for your reply. I just read through all the supporting documents and it all makes sense, so I feel like I'm ready to roll.

I'm on the other side, in Portland, so GMT -8. A daily conversation works for me, I should be able to reply every day.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

Great, so let's rool!

Let’s begin with this:

For this exploration, read one phrase at a time. For each phrase, follow this procedure:

1 - Read the statement, then close your eyes.
2 - Repeat the statement aloud (or in your mind) three times.
3 -Then let go of thought.
4 - Notice your body's reaction.
5 - Stay in that space as long as it feels right.
6 - Move to the next prase.

Tip: It's not about how long you can explore. Whether it's one minute or two hours, it really does not matter. What matters is the quality of your observation and your curiosity. Remember, more is not always better.


Here are the phrases:

* HERE is the only place in space that I experience.



* NOW is the only moment in time that I experience.



* What is it that I am seeking that is not here and now?



* What is it that is here and now that I don't want?




Write down your insights (or the absence of them) and describe your sensations during this exploration.

[PatrickM]

Okay great, thanks David. I'm ready!

* HERE is the only place in space that I experience.

Sometimes in my meditation sessions I will put attention into the body....withdrawing attention from thoughts/mind into body sensations always seems to feel like a deepening, or stilling, or slowing down. I got the same feeling when reading this phrase and it felt familiar and pleasant.

* NOW is the only moment in time that I experience.

Very similar reaction to the first phrase i.e. that deepening or slowing down, along with a bit of 'Oh yeah that's true!' and acknowledging that most thoughts are time-based.

* What is it that I am seeking that is not here and now?

I was immediately up in the head/thoughts upon repeating this one. First thing that popped in my head was "the truth" or "awakening" but then also noticing that it's a bit weird that that feels like it is in the future and not here right now.

* What is it that is here and now that I don't want?

Yeah I seemed to have two reactions to this one. The body's felt reaction was that there is nothing here and now that I don't want, everything seems fine and it would be weird to resist what is already here. But then quickly a mind answer too: its the time based craving that I don't want.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

The fact that you can be aware when your are in thoughts or in sensation is great that will be very usefull. You can clearly see that sensations is a good dimension to explore. Stay in sensation as much as you can.

But then quickly a mind answer too: its the time based craving that I don't want

The mind will always add a "BUT...." to any insight.
The mind will always comment is like an natural after effect. That's fine.
So don't worrie about what come after the "but".

Exploration:

What come up with those affirmation? :

There is no separates entity, anywhere to be find.

There is no individual who have have free will and choice.

[PatrickM]

Hi David!

Stay in sensation as much as you can.

Okay will keep this in mind going forward. Feel free to let me know if I stray as I have been identified with the thinking mind my whole life :)

There is no separates entity, anywhere to be find.

This feels like a relief, as if I know it to be true, but no major body sensations come up.

There is no individual who have have free will and choice.

And this one I feel some resistance to it. It is mild and it's tough to say exactly where I feel it in the body, but there is definitely some aversion to this one.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

You seem to have a pretty clear picture of the situation were are in.
So what are your expectation about this guidance?
What do you think I will give you that you have not?
What you think I can point to you that you don't see?

Do you see that there is no separate self?


Feedback

Feel free to let me know if I stray as I have been identified with the thinking mind my whole life :)

There is no "my whole life".
There is only this instant Shining forth.

This feels like a relief, as if I know it to be true, but no major body sensations come up.

So know to be true or you think to be true?

[PatrickM]

Hi David!

You seem to have a pretty clear picture of the situation were are in.
So what are your expectation about this guidance?
What do you think I will give you that you have not?
What you think I can point to you that you don't see?

It still feels like something needs to fall away. In day to day life I feel identified with the thinking mind and with the separate self. I am here to accelerate that falling away.

Do you see that there is no separate self?

When I look or when I inquire, it makes sense to me and even feels like there is no separate self. But that is not my experience -- the rest of the day it feels like I am the separate self.

So know to be true or you think to be true?

Yeah that's the thing...even if I occasionally get a felt sense that there is no separate self, the moment I stop inquiring or looking inwards I am immediately back in the thinking mind.

P.S. Already feeling some resistance...as if my sacred quest for enlightenment is being threatened and I want to hold onto it🙂

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

Feedback

It still feels like something needs to fall away. In day-to-day life I feel identified with the thinking mind and with the separate self. I am here to accelerate that falling away.

Tell me more about this thing that need to "fall away". What are you talking about?

When you watch a movie, you are aware that it is a movie. In fact, you are willingly forgetting that is just light on a screen and sound. You accept to overlook that fact to enjoy a imaginary world. But a part of you always know and remember that is a movie correct?
Our purpose is to see if the character Patrick is real or not. But I not aiming at making the experience of Patrick disappear. And it doesn't have to. Just as the movie doesn't have to stop for you to know clearly that it is a movie.

When I look or when I inquire, it makes sense to me and even feels like there is no separate self. But that is not my experience -- the rest of the day it feels like I am the separate self.

Here you are in a cross road.
You have to step up and tack a stand. Is there a separate self or there is not?
Can you find this individual?


Be sensitive to differentiate between seeing the experience of Patrick in your Direct Experience and being that.
Often we are confuse because thought tell us that if "Patrick" is there you must be it. But seeing Patrick is already not being identify with it.
Tell me if it make sense to you.

Yeah that's the thing...even if I occasionally get a felt sense that there is no separate self, the moment I stop inquiring or looking inwards I am immediately back in the thinking mind.

There is no "back into" anything. This that is here is everything there is to know.
YOU do NOT go "back" into thought. Thought appear IN YOU. So what?
Tell me more about the "felt sense that there is no separate self."

P.S. Already feeling some resistance...as if my sacred quest for enlightenment is being threatened and I want to hold onto it🙂

There is no enlightenment, awakening nor illumination. No gate to cross, no path, nothing to attain nor nothing to be free from. Nothing is hidden nor secret.

What is here and now is what you get.
Is not about arriving somewhere.
Is about seeing CLEARLY what is here already.

That which want to be enlightened never will be.
There is no hope.

Simply look and see.

This is it.

[PatrickM]

Hi David, thanks for your recent reply, so much good stuff to look into...

Tell me more about this thing that need to "fall away". What are you talking about?

Yes, good question! I guess I no longer believe that the ego is some type of entity that is here or inside me, but it does seem like there is a collection of behaviors and conditioning that create a false sense of self. That's what I'm referring to when talking about some 'thing' that needs to fall away.

But I not aiming at making the experience of Patrick disappear.

This sentence really resonated with me. And makes me question the whole pursuit of awakening.

Be sensitive to differentiate between seeing the experience of Patrick in your Direct Experience and being that. Often we are confuse because thought tell us that if "Patrick" is there you must be it. But seeing Patrick is already not being identify with it. Tell me if it make sense to you.

Yeah I am a little fuzzy on this one. So are you saying the moment I am aware of my immediate experience, something like fear or anger, then seeing that or being aware of that is already not being identified with it?

Tell me more about the "felt sense that there is no separate self."

Yeah all your questions are difficult to answer because my statements like "the felt sense that there is no separate self" have so many assumptions, and the assumptions start to dissolve the moment I try to formulate an answer🙂

Regarding "the felt sense that there is no separate self"....I think I'm referring to the two modes of experience that I seem to cycle between. One is being identified with the fears and thoughts of the thinking mind, as if those fears and thoughts are "me". The other is just being aware of or a witness to all those fears and thoughts but without being intertwined with them.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

The purpose is LU is to see that the separate self is an imagination. You already see that isn't it?

So let's clear up some things like free will and responsibility with this exploration:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?



Feedback

Yes, good question! I guess I no longer believe that the ego is some type of entity that is here or inside me, but it does seem like there is a collection of behaviors and conditioning that create a false sense of self. That's what I'm referring to when talking about some 'thing' that needs to fall away.

That's great. Yes, you are right behavior and conditioning have to be explored and dissolved into one's being. But that is outside the curriculum for crossing the gateless gate. After crossing the gate there are groups, support, and ways to do that. Are you okay with first focusing on crossing the gate "officially"?

This sentence resonated with me. And makes me question the whole pursuit of awakening.

Awakening is not what you think it is. You are already awake to the fact that the ego is false. Now you are awake to the fact that those behaviors and conditioning can be undone or "repattern" to be more aligned with reality. Let go of thought ABOUT awakening and focus on what is here and now.

Yeah I am a little fuzzy on this one. So are you saying the moment I am aware of my immediate experience, something like fear or anger, then seeing that or being aware of that is already not being identified with it?

Exactly. When you see anger you are not angry anymore. Even though the emotion is still present in you. How to deal with this emotion is another subject of itself.

You can also see this in the sensations when you do a postural yoga position. (Or simply bending over). you can feel the tension in the legs. But are YOU tense? No, you are not. The legs are tense. When you see that you are not tense you can deal with tension in a more relaxed and functional way. It is the same with emotion. Once you see that you are not angry you can deal with the emotion of anger in a completely new way.

Yeah all your questions are difficult to answer because my statements like "the felt sense that there is no separate self" have so many assumptions, and the assumptions start to dissolve the moment I try to formulate an answer

That is very good. Seeing dissolves naturally, without effort, assumption, and confusion. Thoughts will ask many questions but if you look carefully there are not real questions but affirmations!

Regarding "the felt sense that there is no separate self"...I think I'm referring to the two modes of experience that I seem to cycle between. One is being identified with the fears and thoughts of the thinking mind as if those fears and thoughts are "me". The other is just being aware of or a witness to all those fears and thoughts but without being intertwined with them.

That is what I explained above. When you see fear you are not fearful anymore and you can deal with fear in a new way.

It is normal to have a cycle and back and forth. Don't worry about that. This process is about being more and more in the seeing cycle than the "other one" until you see that both are the same and it doesn't matter what you identify with.

You are spot on in all your answers and questions. You are already in the tiger's stomach, you simply don't see it yet. ^^

[PatrickM]

Hi David!

The purpose is LU is to see that the separate self is an imagination. You already see that isn't it?

Yes. Kind of. But experientially it still feels real :)

palm flipping exercise.

Yes this is so interesting as the flipping just happens.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No not at all. But the intention was formed after reading your instructions. Without that intention the palm would not be flipping. So where is the intention formed? It still feels like it is formed "here" or in "me".

Maybe that is the crux of the matter? I am still taking ownership of that intention to flip the palm. If that intention is not landing "here" or in "me" then why is the palm flipping?

Are you okay with first focusing on crossing the gate "officially"?

Okay yes.

You can also see this in the sensations when you do a postural yoga position. (Or simply bending over). you can feel the tension in the legs. But are YOU tense? No, you are not.

Yes thank you for this. There is something there that I am drawn to i.e. that boundary point or threshold where an experience becomes "me" or "mine".

You are already in the tiger's stomach, you simply don't see it yet. ^^

I believe you. Looking forward to seeing the stomach as a stomach🙂

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

Let's keep looking:

Raising Hand Exercise

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Feedback

Yes. Kind of. But experientially it still feels real :)

The question is not if the experience is real or not. The question is can you find some entity in this experience of yours?
You write YES. AND THEN "kind of". So tell me the belief behind this "kind of"?

No not at all. But the intention was formed after reading your instructions. Without that intention, the palm would not be flipping. So where is the intention formed? It still feels like it is formed "here" or in "me".

EVERYTHING is in you. so yes the intention is in you.
The two fundamental questions are:
Did you choose this intention to build up in you?
What is the nature of this "you"?

Did you choose the exercise that allow this intention to be built in you?

I am still taking ownership of that intention to flip the palm.

Exactly. Ownership is key.
Can you find this "me" that owns the intention in your direct experience?

I believe you. Looking forward to seeing the stomach as a stomach🙂

Never believe anything I say. Never.
Doubt all I say. And by the way, doubt what everyone else says.
Trust only your DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

[PatrickM]

Hi David! Okay I might be getting closer to the point of the exercises...

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience.

So regarding your questions about the raising hand exercise....if I am going by direct experience then the hands raising is just happening.

There is seeing of it happening but without thought it is hard to answer your questions and it wouldn't make sense to. Without thought there is no evidence of a controller or separate individual or decision.

Cheers.