Looking for a guide

[Ziad144]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that reality is pure experiencing without an experiencer. That the self we think we are is just a thought that is believed in, which itself is just an arising in the ever present flow of experiencing. I see this numerous times a day and yet there seems to be so many fetters that are blocking a deeper seeing and stabilization.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’d like to be guided to find true liberation from the mind’s perpetual illusions. I have already gained much release from suffering, but there is still a lot of identification as a separate self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to seek out, expose and release the core beliefs that are holding up the illusion of a self that is still causing suffering. It’s obvious that this is the lynch pin holding everything together, and I’d like to remove it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been on the path for many years. I meditate daily (sinking into non-dual awareness which I have easy access to), and I inquire into the false nature of self numerous times a day, especially when suffering arises. I have done many psychedelic ceremonies which revealed deep truths, and am constantly working on emotional releasing and deconditioning to be a greater embodiment of truth and love in my life.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[JanineJanaki]

Hello Ziad!! Is this how you wish to be addressed?

My name is Janine. I’d be pleased to guide.

As I read your post I was struck by:

I expect to seek out, expose and release the core beliefs that are holding up the illusion of a self that is still causing suffering. It’s obvious that this is the lynch pin holding everything together, and I’d like to remove it.

Before I continue, I invite you to consider the following:
Can I post daily? This keeps momentum. If you cannot post, or need more time, kindly post that! And I’ll do the same.
Can I set aside all other “spiritual” related resources - books, teachings, models, theories, philosophy and the like for the duration of our investigation. Here, we will be LOOKING DIRECTLY at what presents. Preconceived ideas and concepts, even the seemingly helpful ones quickly act as ropes that bind, weaving a web of complexity. SEEING is simple. Let’s stick to that!
Can I be COMPLETELY authentic and transparent? Censoring what we SEE when LOOKING DIRECTLY at what presents, in the form of narratives, piling thought upon thought over the simplicity of what is greatly distracts. Please report simply and directly from experience in the moment.

Also, please review the following links.
1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
And this video about the Quote function (which will assist in our dialogue).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s

It is highly recommended to copy and paste your posts from a separate Word document, lest your work disappear into the abyss due to a system glitch!

If you feel well with the suggestions and the content of the links, and wish to continue, I have a question for you!!

Cheers!
Janine

[Ziad144]

Hi Janine,

So sorry for the late reply! I had technical issues logging into the website, and it just worked now.

Yes, to all your questions. Let's do it!

You can call me Ziad, yes, and I'm ready for your question :)

[JanineJanaki]

Hello Ziad!

Yes, I notice that the site “misbehaves!” from time to time…

You said…

I expect to seek out, expose and release the core beliefs that are holding up the illusion of a self that is still causing suffering. It’s obvious that this is the lynch pin holding everything together, and I’d like to remove it.

I wonder what makes this obvious. Is it as obvious as tasting the pungent sour flesh of a lemon or as obvious as IMAGINING tasting the pungent sour flesh of a lemon?
Perhaps try it for yourself. Prepare a bite of anything you like (or don’t like). Place it before you, and with eyes closed, IMAGINE the taste on the tongue. Then, after a minute or so, take an actual bite. Close the eyes and EXPERIENCE directly the sensation.
Please describe your experience of the two scenarios.

Also you wrote:

I inquire into the false nature of self numerous times a day, especially when suffering arises.

When you inquire, do you see what is there or what is not there?
It may seem like a silly question, but for our practice, here, it is essential to LOOK directly at what is… that is, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations, and thinking (not the content of thought). Next time you experience suffering, LOOK directly. Thoughts and concepts may appear, and that's ok. Let them be. Inquire, what is the most real sensation?

Do you have any questions for me?

Cheers!
Janine

[Ziad144]

Hmm... I see what you mean. It's only conceptually obvious. With imagining tasting the food, it's all images, assumptions, memory, thoughts, coming together to form a certain experience, whereas the experience of tasting food itself is completely non-conceptual. It's direct sensory experiencing with no thought or concept needed.

Having said that, when I inquire into the existence of self, all I find is sensory experiences, and thoughts/images, but no actual entity. Just various patterns of feeling, sensing and thinking. The mind then somehow says "this is me", even though it's constantly changing and can't actually be found except as a collection of changing experience. So part of the reason I say that it's obvious is that I can see the process of selfing and how it creates so much sufferring. I can see the emptiness of a self within the sensory experiencing, and then how an I thought comes in afterwards to claim everything as itself.

The strange thing, though, is that while I have seen this thousands of times, the Fetter has not been broken. It has been greatly weakened. Dozens of times a day I experience myself as formless awareness in which experiencing occurs, and at times in meditation it goes even beyond that. It becomes pure experiencing experiencing only itself, more as a verb than noun/subject like awareness. And yet despite this, the habit of believing and feeling myself to be a person persists.

I wonder what kind of seeing it'll take to finally break this fetter. I have these direct, first-hand insights (much like tasting the food versus thinking about tasting it), numerous times daily. At times they happen within a very silent, meditative stillness that allows for very clear, direct seeing. And yet the seeming separate self persists in belief and feeling.

I guess the question is, what will it take for a "pop" to finally occur, and if it does occur, what will shift on the experiential level? Right now it feels that the "self" is this conglomeration of feelings (i.e. a felt sense of an entity), that mainly goes from the stomach, into the chest and behind the eyes / in the head. When I dive into it, it's always empty- just pure vibration. What more can possibly be done to break the belief and felt sense that this is a self when it is indeed experientially obvious (directly, not through a thought process), that it's not?

[JanineJanaki]

Hi Ziad!!

You write:

The strange thing, though, is that while I have seen this thousands of times, the Fetter has not been broken.
What makes you write that there’s a fetter to be broken?

LOOK.
Do you see a fetter?
Do you see a mechanism of fettering?
Where did you go to answer the questions?


Considering expectations…
What do you imagine that breaking the fetter will invite? In other words, will something actually be added to or taken from your experience?
Again, where did you go to answer the question?

What if expectation has nothing to do with reality, direct experience?
Are you willing to set aside expectations, in favor of LOOKING DIRECTLY?

Take a moment to LOOK now, and FEEL directly the absence of expectation (if you are willing to set it aside). Report your experience.

And a final inquiry – if “It” – breaking the fetter, seeing past the illusion of a separate self, doesn’t go as you expect, would you still want “It?”


Cheers!
Janine

[Ziad144]

Hey Janine,

I don't see a fetter per se (has anyone ever actually seen a fetter after all?), but yes, from direct experience and direct looking, it's clear that there is still a felt SENSE and belief in a personal self much of the time. Of course whenever this sense is explored, no self can be found, and it's just as clear that there isn't one there to be found. But the mechanism of selfing can be seen. It can be seen how thoughts, sensations, feelings, memories, imaginings etc form patterns to give an illusory sense of self- a feeling that there is someone in here looking out through these eyes and making decisions.

I read about people seeing through the illusory sense of self, in books like the Gateless Gatecrashers, but that doesn't really tell me if their entire personal sense of self disappeared for good. And it's not enough for me to see through the illusion- that's happened thousands of times. The default state needs to become one of not experiencing a personal sense of self. Whether that's called a fetter or not, is not really what I care about. I care about only my actual lived experience.

Which brings us to expectations. I definitely see that nothing will be added. I see this, because a good portion of the time I actually experience myself as vast spaciousness, and the world seems to arise within this vastness that I am, including this body called Ziad. When I'm experience that state of being, I know nothing can be added to it nor taken away from it. But all of that doesn't seem relevant when I'm once again experiencing myself as a seeming person- even if the person is not there when looked for. The reality is that so-called enlightened beings don't need to keep looking for this self to see that it's an illusion- it's simply gone for them and they have a new default state. The expectation is that this new default would simply be one of less suffering. That's the only thing I expect to be taken away. Not that I expect suffering to completely disappear, because I understand that the personal sense of self is only one layer of suffering- i.e. the one who suffers. But that's a big one- it's what clings onto suffering and makes it "mine". And I'm not speaking from textbook knowledge only here. My suffering has already decreased by 80% due to the shift in consciousness that has already occurred whereby I often experience myself as vast spaciousness. So I already see directly how letting go of a big part of the belief and felt sense of being a person does indeed greatly decrease suffering. Hence, it seems to be a valid expectation to expect even less suffering when the fetter completely breaks and the sense of being a person located in a body, making decisions and being a doer, no longer arises in that way.

Now, for your last questions, these I find the most interesting. I know how expectations can create blockages, but the thing is that I'm not just using conceptual expectations, as I just described above. I am LOOKING DIRECTLY. The only thing that is causing frustration is how the sense of self can keep popping back up after so many direct insights of its non-existence, day after day after day.

Having said that, I did try out your last two suggestions. Feeling the absence of expectation produced fear. Fear from lack of control. So expectation clearly creates a sense of control, and I'm sure that's not helpful. And if breaking the fetter doesn't go as I expect (i.e. zero reduction in suffering) I may still want it if it has some other unforeseen benefit. But I would not if it had none. However, I don't think any human would want something if it had zero value, so while the the contemplation was interesting, the end result doesn't honestly tell me much.

So I'm not sure how to set aside expectation when it's the only thing driving this whole thing (i.e. expectation of greatly reducing suffering), and this has already been proven to be true by the awakening that has already occurred.

I'm open to suggestions!

[JanineJanaki]

Hello Ziad!

It can be seen how thoughts, sensations, feelings, memories, imaginings etc form patterns to give an illusory sense of self-

Please refer to the following image: http://www.illusions.org/dp/1-9.htm

Describe what you see.
Then, without imposing meaning, simply, what do you see?
Which report feels more true?

a feeling that there is someone in here looking out through these eyes and making decisions.

LOOK at this “feeling” carefully.
Does this feeling appear as raw sensation AND thought content?
If there is a thought, can you set it aside and report the raw sensation?
Without imposing meaning, describe the experience.

I see this, because a good portion of the time I actually experience myself as vast spaciousness, and the world seems to arise within this vastness that I am, including this body called Ziad.

In this vast space, LOOK to see if there are any problems. Are there?
Is this vast space EVER absent?
Is there room in this vast space for everything, wanted and unwanted?

The reality is that so-called enlightened beings don't need to keep looking for this self to see that it's an illusion- it's simply gone for them and they have a new default state.

How do you know this? Where did you go to get this answer?
Does your shadow trouble you even though you cannot make it go away?
Are thoughts any different than shadows?

The only thing that is causing frustration is how the sense of self can keep popping back up after so many direct insights of its non-existence, day after day after day.

LOOK to see if this sense of self is a raw sensation, thought, or both, each time “it” pops back up.
Are you able to sit with it as it presents? Can you LOOK at the thought stream content without becoming it?

Feeling the absence of expectation produced fear. Fear from lack of control.

So, expectation (planned resentment) makes you feel safe? Has any expectation played out EXACTLY as planned?
Is any thought reliable, EVER?
Abiding in the maze of reason may be familiar, but its far more complex and unsettling than relying upon “vast space.”
Could you consider exchanging expectation for curiosity?

Inquire, who’s running this show? Do you think you know what needs to happen next? (expectation)
Try the following exercise:
Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?
1. Can you find anywhere where Ziad autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?
2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
3. Can anything be found for which Ziad is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Cheers!
Janine

[Ziad144]

Expectation is planned resentment. I love that! So true based on experience. From that perspective, yes I can definitely exchange it for curiosity, which has actually occurred over the past 24 hours or so.

It has suddenly become much more clear that virtually everything I've been saying is just thought. And it's all bullshit. Meaning making and finding added on after the fact.

The reality is that the image is just black and white colors. Then the mind comes in and makes it a musician or a woman. The former feels more true. Same with the feeling that someone is looking out through these eyes and making decisions. The raw sensation is just vibration and awareness. Nothing else is really happening in truth.

There is also nothing wrong in the vast space, which is ever-present. There's room for it for everything. Wanted and unwanted are just thoughts also arising within it.

I don't actually know what enlightened beings experience. That's just a thought. Thoughts that arise without being believed are not a problem. The fixation was "why are these thoughts of personhood still being believed?". But it's seen now more clearly that that's just a thought itself that is being believed.

The sense of self seems to be raw sensation plus an identification as the thinker. But the inquiry has been arising "what is the thinker when there is no thought?". It's clear that there isn't a thinker there waiting for a thought to arise. The thinker and the thought are one arising.

And no, Ziad has not autonomously done anything. That is seen.

It seems that there is actually no problem until thought makes it a problem- even the seeming sense of self. Full allowance of even this seems, intuitively, to be the way forward.

Thank you for your patience.

[JanineJanaki]

Hello Ziad!!

It has suddenly become much more clear that virtually everything I've been saying is just thought.

Smiling!

And it's all bullshit.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Another thought. Another conclusion. We use thought in this investigation. The most honest thing I can say about “it’s all bullshit” is that I do not know.

The question is, how do these words, your words, make you feel?
If you answered with an emotion, please report both the thought (label) and raw sensation.

The raw sensation is just vibration and awareness. Nothing else is really happening in truth.

What is awareness?

I don't actually know what enlightened beings experience. That's just a thought. Thoughts that arise without being believed are not a problem. The fixation was "why are these thoughts of personhood still being believed?". But it's seen now more clearly that that's just a thought itself that is being believed.

Lovely!

Let’s play.

Imagine an enormous rushing waterfall.
Please describe in a couple words the sound.

Imagine crossing a small stream.
Describe that flow of water.

Imagine set before you, carefully, two pieces of fruit, say, orange and pineapple, unpeeled and ready to eat. Mentally, taste. Then describe in a few words the difference between the two.

Imagine the scent of smoke from a chimney… and then the smell of incense burning. Describe the variation between them in a few words.

Turn your head to the left and allow the eyes to land on something. Describe the visual field without labeling objects.

Now touch your face softly. Report the sensation in a few words.
And then lightly slap your forearm. Describe that sensation in a few words.

In our play with the sense fields, tell me if it is possible to communicate exactly what is felt… to another, or even to “self?”

Do you think words… labels and images… thoughts… are accurate or reliable messengers?

Every attempt to capture direct experience in the form of a concept, or label, is like mistaking “the finger pointing to the moon for the moon.” Story-telling quickly becomes a house of mirrors… pointers pointing to pointers, pointing to pointers. A lot of chatter over what is actually occurring as direct experience.

The thinker and the thought are one arising.

Lovely.

And no, Ziad has not autonomously done anything

Are Ziad’s expectations valid?

If expectations arise 100 times a day, can you set them aside 100 times a day?
If so, is this Ziad doing it?

Thank you for this dance!

Cheers!
Janine

[Ziad144]

It's all bullshit is just another mental conclusion. Although it feels intuitively true that all thoughts are just mental constructs and therefore ultimately bullshit. This can have the effect of feeling good or bad, depending on the lens through which the statement is made. Good if it's seen as a simple revelation or insight because it feels freeing. Bad if it's seen as a barrier. The question is, what is it that is seeing it this way or that- just another thought overlaid on the first, it seems.

Awareness seems less and less like a noun and more like a verb. The experience of being conscious, versus "consciousness" as a stable thing.

I did all the experiments you suggested. It feels pretty much impossible to accurately describe any of these things in words, let alone to compare experiences in any meaningful way through concepts. It really does drive the point home how limited thought is, and what direct experience really means.

Ziad's expectations seem more like mental constructs now. And yes, they can be set aside 100 times a day, and it wouldn't be Ziad doing that, and that itself is just a thought :)

There's more and more zeroing in on the thoughtless direct experiencing. Thank you!

[JanineJanaki]

Hi Ziad!!

Good if it's seen as a simple revelation or insight because it feels freeing. Bad if it's seen as a barrier.

Aside from considering whether or not “revelations” are truly “good,” and “barriers” are truly “bad,” please LOOK and tell me what you find beneath the labels of “revelations,” “barriers,” “good,” and “bad.”

REALLY LOOK. For a moment, do not bypass into Vast Space.
Feel into “revelations being good.” Report what you find in three words.
Feel into “barriers being bad.” Report what you find in three words.

Awareness seems less and less like a noun and more like a verb. The experience of being conscious, versus "consciousness" as a stable thing.

Lovely!!

There's more and more zeroing in on the thoughtless direct experiencing. Thank you!

Thank YOU!!!

So, Ziad, how are you feeling while navigating the play of Absolute (vast space) and relative (every “thing” in it)?
Have you experienced suffering lately?

Do you feel free to let everything be EXACTLY as it is and EXACTLY as it is not?

Do you still believe that there’s a way to end suffering?

Cheers!
Janine

[Ziad144]

Revelations being good = expanded energy field (in my direct experience)
Barriers being bad = contracted energy field (in my direct experience)

Having said that, the experience of the energy field seems to be just reacting to the inherently judgmental thought. It's seen that removing the judgment would make them both neutral occurrences.

I have felt suffering when a stressful external event occurred. But I could see in real-time how the belief in the thoughts about the event were causing the suffering, and exploring it I couldn't find an actual sufferer. Although the habit and tendency was to continual re-identify as a sufferer and believe the thoughts. Usually this is pretty easily seen through. But with certain triggers that hit deeper into beliefs around insecurity, it seems much harder to see them as just thoughts and drop them, without getting re-entangled pretty quickly.

I don't feel I have the capacity yet to let everything be exactly as it is and as it is not. I'd love to, but it feels that certain attachments are still too strong, and I'd be lying if I just said that I can just do that now.

Interestingly enough, I believe the way to end suffering is precisely to let everything be exactly as it is and it is not. Because from my experience, all suffering I've ever experienced was due to resisting reality.

[JanineJanaki]

Hello Ziad!

Revelations being good = expanded energy field (in my direct experience)
Barriers being bad = contracted energy field (in my direct experience)

Is there a preference for one over the other?
Is preference a direct sensation or thought plus direct sensation?
Is it possible to stay with a less than preferable direct sensation, exchanging the thought for curiosity?

Having said that, the experience of the energy field seems to be just reacting to the inherently judgmental thought. It's seen that removing the judgment would make them both neutral occurrences.

"Would" is speculation. Thought. Do it! Experience it for yourself.

What if I suggested, suspend the judgment that “revelations are good” and “barriers are bad.” Instead consider that "revelations are doog" and "barriers are dab?" Pretend for a moment that’s true. What is your direct experience?
Feel into “revelations being doog.” Report what you find in three words.
Feel into “barriers being dab.” Report what you find in three words.

But with certain triggers that hit deeper into beliefs around insecurity, it seems much harder to see them as just thoughts and drop them, without getting re-entangled pretty quickly.

Is this true, or is this another thought, attempting to organize reality?

I don't feel I have the capacity yet to let everything be exactly as it is and as it is not. I'd love to, but it feels that certain attachments are still too strong, and I'd be lying if I just said that I can just do that now.

Thanks for your honesty, but tell me, does vast space have sufficient capacity? And in vast space, do you find any evidence of time?
Who is the liar? Do you see competing beliefs? “I’d love to, but…” LOOK!!
As many times as a thought appears out of thin air, that many times it may be believed or disbelieved, right?

Interestingly enough, I believe the way to end suffering is precisely to let everything be exactly as it is and it is not.

Including where you think you seem to be right now? Not quite “There?!”
Does that assumption have any real weight at all when you LOOK?

Cheers!
Janine

[Ziad144]

I'm so sorry for the late reply! I had a super hectic day from 4:30am to 10:30pm and didn't wanna rush through this and respond just for the sake of responding on time.

There's definitely a preference for the expanded energy field, but the preference itself is definitely not just a direct sensation- it is imbued with thought. And yes, it is possible to stay with a less than preferable direct sensation when staying in curiosity. In fact, doing that instantly brings into experience an expansive energy field around the contracted one :)

So, yes, removing the judgmental thought does make them both fully allowed and accepted experiences.

doog and dab :) Love it. The three words that came up for both sentences is (from direct experience): Pure open being.

I'm going to have to experiment with the possibility that even certain triggers that hit deeper into beliefs around insecurity don't necessarily need to be harder to see through- that it's just another thought attempting to organize reality. Fascinating.

The mind- thought- is the liar. While seeming like honesty, the answer comes from the perspective of a separate self that can't allow everything to be exactly as it is and as it is not. And yet vast space not only has the capacity- but everything is already welcomed and allowed in it, just as it is, just by virtue of its arising. That's clear. It, itself has no time, and no resistance. So the most truthful answer to your question that I can sense into, without believing thought, is that I (the vast space/emptiness) am ALREADY allowing everything to be exactly as it is and as it is not. I don't need to do anything for this to be the case.

The only thing I got stuck on is your last question. If even "not quite being there" is allowed to be as it is, fully, then suddenly it is no longer not quite being there. And so the assumption that that would indeed end suffering does seem true...

Thank you for the wonderful, though-provoking reply!