Sharing

[Noro]

Dear Sebi,

Having read your last three posts, I think I will skip returning to the one prior, we are moving along fast!

Feeling betrayed, how does this feel in the body?
It’s a squeeze in the heart. Literally a heartache. Blood pressure is rising, I can feel the blood rising in my left arm at most. Like when you smoke a cigarette after a long time, and the blood vessels are narrowing.
There is also a stomachache. Like there is a whole in the stomach.
There is sadness and rage.
My testicles get smaller, and pulling up into the stomach.

OK, it is not nice to feel betrayed for sure, but you can sense the body sensations and this is key. Let's simplify the sensations like the apple exercise.

Squeeze in heart - Sensation
Blood pressure is rising. This is thought/interpretation
How does blood pressure fEEL in the body?
Stomachache and feeling of hole in stomach - Sensation
Sadness and rage - This is thought / interpretation because I can now ask you
How do sadness and rage FEEL in the body?
Are they both there together or does one overlay the other?

This is an example of how to dismantle body sensation from thought.

An emotion is a body sensation plus a label and they seem to be intertwined, but when we ask the question of the label about how does that feel, then we can see that the label is not the sensation, it is an overlay. What is DE is Sensation.
Also feelings get confused like emotions, sensation plus label. I feel tired.
How does it feel to feel tired?

Do you see this?


So what do you see when you actually LOOK at the apple (see the Colored Socks pointer on how to look) What do you see in DE?

I don’t know what I’m looking at, without labels.

Are you sure that you don't know?
(don't know is already content of thought, its already too much for DE)

No apple, no colors, no shape. It is.

Yes!


1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Yes, the description of what happening without an I, feels more real.

Yes!

2. What is here without labels?

Calmness, Curiosity. Amazment. Gratitude.

Beautiful!

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
(If answer is yes then "Nope. Not one bit. There's an exercise for that. I may give it next. but for now. if I write GREEN does the label, "green" change what you actually see? No.

The labels, are taking away the curiosity and the focus on the object. What is seen is the same, but taking away the filter of the labels, there is suddenly an amazement, a curiosity. The experience is more vivid, interesting. There is no ugly or beautiful.

Yes!

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Yes. In the first version, there is tension. A feeling, that something is off-putting.
In the second version, there is more calmness, it feels more relaxed. A feeling of it is, as it is.

YES!

To put it simply:
Lies are contractions. tense, tight & heavy.
Truth is expansive, relaxed, loose & light.
Most people can find this in their gut or heart.

Thinking to find the answer won't help in this inquiry. That's never the way to help you to SEE.

TRUTH FROM LIE EXERCISE
Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.
We often lie every day & don't realize it.
For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.
Say "I" to yourself. How does the thought "I" feel in the body?

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel when you say a lie or sense someone else lying. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that? *

Love
Rowena

[Noro]

Re: your last post.

Nowadays I more and more see the whole functioning of Sebi as watching an actor.
This perspective is than the most visible, when something upsetting is happening.
There is rage, there is anxiety etc. and I say the words as I used to in such situations, I even participate in the usual discussion with people, but somehow it seems there is no identification with these. From the outside, there is no change, but it feels like somebody else is doing it. I can go from being mad, in a split second, to not even remembering what this was about. Than triggering is happening, I’m again in the story of being upset, mad, anxious etc. And than it disappears again. Stepping in and out of the story. And somehow there is a feeling in the background….that something is enjoying all this "being upset- game"… As playing an interesting character on stage.
It is a feeling, like playing a role… The sensations have an effect, but in the same time, it is like there is nobody to feel this effect, so it falls away…. It’s like drawing a smiley on a cars window, when it’s frozen. And suddenly the sun comes up, and in minutes, the smiley isn’t there anymore.
These are such subtle experiences…

Yes, it can feel like that sometimes.
You say:

its a feeling, like playing a role: Is playing a role a feeling?

Do you see how sloppy we are with language? And btw this is not a criticism towards you :)
Now we are learning to become sharp with our use of language and distinguish interpretations and descriptions which are thought from pure feeling/sensations.

love
Rowena

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!
Let’s see:

Blood pressure is rising. This is thought/interpretation
How does blood pressure fEEL in the body?

Tension, contraction. Pressure in the head, in the eyes. Pulse is rising. Tension in the belly.

Sadness and rage - This is thought / interpretation because I can now ask you
How do sadness and rage FEEL in the body?
Are they both there together or does one overlay the other?

Sadness: The sensation in it’s pure form is shaking in the body, tears are coming, there is a tension in the heart, squeeze in the belly.
Nowadays the emotions sometimes just flow trough me. I had a sudden experience last time, where I was driving and suddenly I started to shake and I started to weep. Shaking and weeping was happening, without any thinkable reason, trigger. I realized, oh, this must be sadness. It was beautiful. Than 2 weeks ago in the closing session in my men’s circle retreat the same happened, but out of joy and gratitude. Strangely the two sensation were very similar.
Untill this day I didn’t experienced rage in this way, so I could only tell you the „normal” way of experiencing it, with a label, with a something triggering it: Pressure in the head, in the heart. Testicles are shrinking, moving up in the belly.

An emotion is a body sensation plus a label and they seem to be intertwined, but when we ask the question of the label about how does that feel, then we can see that the label is not the sensation, it is an overlay. What is DE is Sensation.
Also feelings get confused like emotions, sensation plus label. I feel tired.
How does it feel to feel tired?

Do you see this?

Yes. Till now I had the impression, that I’m on a high level of consciousness regarding thoughts, emotions, that I’m doing a great work as a detective. But now I see, that there is way more to this, that there are many more, deeper layers. This is a very good process to unfold all the layers.

So what do you see when you actually LOOK at the apple (see the Colored Socks pointer on how to look) What do you see in DE?
Are you sure that you don't know?
(don't know is already content of thought, its already too much for DE)

Hmm….the only thing, which comes to my mind now, is love…When I look at the apple, how it is applenessing….I feel love.
It is somehow cute.
The rest is memory and labels.

Say "I" to yourself. How does the thought "I" feel in the body?

Contraction in the heart and head. And between them. Like lying.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

It is very good, that I have done a little lying some days ago, because I can relate now more to the exercise, since usually I never lie, or say things I don’t mean. Or just very rarely. This time I lied to my mother, that I there was no bread in the shop, she wanted to have, but in truth I forgot to buy it.

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel when you say a lie or sense someone else lying. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

Contraction in the heart and head. Coldness. I know it’s not DE, but shame is rising and that I want to hide.
Shame again, is a pressure in the heart, pressure in the blodd vessels, and somehow cold.
Strangely all of these sensations are somehow in the heart region, and head region, and in the testicles. But the squeezing in my balls and the contraction in the blood vessels, are somehow secondary, a reaction to that what is happening in the heart.

Do you see how sloppy we are with language? And btw this is not a criticism towards you :)
Now we are learning to become sharp with our use of language and distinguish interpretations and descriptions which are thought from pure feeling/sensations.

Yes, it’s really good to learn how to differentiate.
Doing this and the previous exercise since yesterday, slowed down the thought process a lot. And the words of the concrete action are rising, when I’m doing something. This is typing, this is sitting, this is drinking, this is opening the door etc. And this helps to stay in this empty state without labels and less thoughts and feelings.

Hugs
Sebi

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

You are really getting the hang of this! <3

Hmm….the only thing, which comes to my mind now, is love…When I look at the apple, how it is applenessing….I feel love.
It is somehow cute.
The rest is memory and labels.

Beautiful!

Contraction in the heart and head. Coldness. I know it’s not DE, but shame is rising and that I want to hide.
Shame again, is a pressure in the heart, pressure in the blodd vessels, and somehow cold.
Strangely all of these sensations are somehow in the heart region, and head region, and in the testicles. But the squeezing in my balls and the contraction in the blood vessels, are somehow secondary, a reaction to that what is happening in the heart.

Shame is a big one and I LOVE that you already confirmed that it is not DE. Can you actually see that in DE there is no shame, only a label "shame" and sensations. These sensations have probably been with you since you were a small child, I think most of us experience shame as a child, and those sensations were too much to experience at that time, and so an avoidance or defense mechanism was set in place whenever there was an inkling of that 'shame' feeling. Now, you, adult Sebi, can hold the space for those feelings to be there. Just sensations. Are they even that uncomfortable or unbearable? What a gift!


EXPLORE 'SENSE OF SELF'

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?


Love
Rowena

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!

It is very hard to have a fresh take in this questions. Since I thought about them so many times and I've read, heard so much about the right answers. So I try to delete the right answers and see what comes up.

There is a lot of anger doing this inquiry...

Maybe I need a detox, after this...

Does the sense of self have a location?

No. It has the feel, that it would be the brain, since I interpret the self as the memories mostly. But it is not. There is a feelng that the "I"was already there before birth. So it can't be any part of the body.

The self is a sensation.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No. Or in other words, it is in all shape and size.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

No. It is like a reflection on the water. A blurry bundle of memories, character traits, ethics, moral, preferences. I know these are changing all the time. Still there is a sense of a core. Mostly memories and my "heart".

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

Yes, my past gives it a color, a smell, a taste. My feelings when I hear a song which I'm listening to for 30 years. The emotional bundle. Based on memories. A contraction in the heart, in the stomach. Euphoria. MY euphoria. Not anybody elses. When these emotions enter the room and call my name, it is me who raises the hand, not anybody else. My spagetti sauce is based on my story. How I make love is also unique, it is the result off all the memories, experiences I had till now.


I love this memory/experience bundle. I love my body, my voice, my big heart and my ethics/moral, my empathy.

I love my "love-brands". Looking at a Martens boot. And feeling that raising of memories, that taste in my mouth of feeedom, of rock and roll...

I love this character.


I know that I won't loose this bundle of "self". Still I feel a lot of anger right now. It's the feeling of letting go something, that is not exisitng, still I'm holding on to it. As if it would be excepted of me to let go, the only thing I knew till now, to be real.


This ambivalence is very tiring.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

All of them, see above.

What is found?

An instantly changing entity, with a core, that never changes. I identify this as memory plus something unchanging...


It's like the relevant and the absolut would exist parallel.


So altough I want to give you the"right" answers, as I heard it tousand times, this honest confusion is all I got now.


Hugs

Sebi

[Noro]

Dear Sebi,

SENSE OF SELF.
This exercise has shown up a common confusing between the "I" or "me" thought which references all the narratives relating to 'ourself and the 'sense of self' that we believe we can find and feel AS A SENSATION in the body.

In the Mind Labelling Exercise you explored the difference between adding "I am......doing" between simply "doing".
When we refer to our memories, thoughts, beliefs we use "I". "I" is used for communicating and self-referencing.

So in this exercise we are looking purely at Sensation and whether a Sense of Self can be found.

I know that I won't loose this bundle of "self". Still I feel a lot of anger right now. It's the feeling of letting go something, that is not exisitng, still I'm holding on to it. As if it would be excepted of me to let go, the only thing I knew till now, to be real.

Well seen! I can remember when I was searching to find where a self was located I had a similar reaction.

How does the anger feel in your body?
Where is it located?
Does it move around?

So altough I want to give you the"right" answers, as I heard it tousand times, this honest confusion is all I got now.

Sebi, there are no "right' answers in this or any other LU inquiry. There is only looking at what you see in direct experiencing.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
Yes, my past gives it a color, a smell, a taste. My feelings when I hear a song which I'm listening to for 30 years. The emotional bundle. Based on memories. A contraction in the heart, in the stomach. Euphoria. MY euphoria. Not anybody elses. When these emotions enter the room and call my name, it is me who raises the hand, not anybody else. My spagetti sauce is based on my story. How I make love is also unique, it is the result off all the memories, experiences I had till now.

I love this memory/experience bundle. I love my body, my voice, my big heart and my ethics/moral, my empathy.

I love my "love-brands". Looking at a Martens boot. And feeling that raising of memories, that taste in my mouth of feeedom, of rock and roll...

I love this character.

You are not being asked to let go of any of the above self-narrative, but please recognize that all this is 'thought content', it references a description of the story of Sebi. It is not what is actually being experienced as you look to where the questions are pointing. The pointing to sensations in the body of a Sense of Self in DE.


What comes up when reading that there is no self, has never been, and self is just a made up story?
Please describe any emotions that might arise (an emotion is a sensation and a label such as anger)

Now, return to:

EXPLORE SENSE OF SELF

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Please remember that there are no right answers.
If the exercise causes you any stress or anxiety then stop looking and stay with the sensations in the body.

Please report back your findings.

Love Rowena

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!

How does the anger feel in your body?

It’s rather a kind of frustration. It’s a contraction in the heart area.

Where is it located?

Heart, belly.

Does it move around?

No.

What comes up when reading that there is no self, has never been, and self is just a made up story?

Please describe any emotions that might arise (an emotion is a sensation and a label such as anger)
This morning in my meditation about this, a huge weight dropped, or is dropping still. Realizing this, it means I can’t do anything wrong, there is a necessity in everything. This arrived to me some time ago, but now it feels more convincing, it goes deeper. There is a huge relief in just happening and letting it happen. Or to say it better: not to cling to the idea, that I can not let it happen.
But still there is this voice in the background, a bit more silent, but I can hear it, it says that this is BS. I’m the self, this whole thing is just a sick kind of theoretical philosophy.

Does the sense of self have a location?

No.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

No.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

No. The self no, the personality does. I see now the difference. The personality is real, it stays, it also just happens. It doesn’t control anything, it just is as it is. I breatch music, since I was little. There was no choice in this for example. The filter of labels through which I see the world also just happend, evolved. No I in it, which said from now on this is gonna be like this. There is no self behind it.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

The sense (!) of self is made out from the memory if these. Mostly image, but also sound and smell, and thought, memory of emotions etc.
It is as I would live a fairy tale, but there is no one who writes the story. It’s just there. Hard to grasp this.

What is found?

I’m a bit exhausted. Since month I’m burning in this topic. I will finish the books I started, and watch some videos which are on my list, but then I will go on a detox. I will just keep my sitting routine, but I will go back to the material level. And bring all these experiences, sensations with me, and let’s see. There is less weight on things, I go back to the breath a lot of time during the day and through this, I can come back to the reality, see what is in front of me, or just jump of the identification train. This is a completely other way of going through the day. Not long ago, I could stuck in the mud up to my head and had to hoist myself out of it, like Baron Münchhausen. Now it’s like, I would get stuck only up to my ankles and it’s easy to get me fee out of the mud. But still the mud is there, stucking happens, contraction in the heart, belly, jaw, shoulder can happen, when „bad” thoughts fly through. I let this voice, which is doubtfull about this whole process also just fly through and don't take it too seriously.

Hugs
Sebi

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

What comes up when reading that there is no self, has never been, and self is just a made up story?
Please describe any emotions that might arise (an emotion is a sensation and a label such as anger)

This morning in my meditation about this, a huge weight dropped, or is dropping still. Realizing this, it means I can’t do anything wrong, there is a necessity in everything. This arrived to me some time ago, but now it feels more convincing, it goes deeper. There is a huge relief in just happening and letting it happen. Or to say it better: not to cling to the idea, that I can not let it happen.
But still there is this voice in the background, a bit more silent, but I can hear it, it says that this is BS. I’m the self, this whole thing is just a sick kind of theoretical philosophy.

What a beautiful realization........ and yes, of course that voice in the background would object!! :)

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

No. The self no, the personality does. I see now the difference. The personality is real, it stays, it also just happens. It doesn’t control anything, it just is as it is. I breatch music, since I was little. There was no choice in this for example. The filter of labels through which I see the world also just happend, evolved. No I in it, which said from now on this is gonna be like this. There is no self behind it.

Here we are inquiring into a sense of self which is subtly different from a self since it seems to be linked to body sensations. And yes, the personality does just happen and it doesn't control anything, it just what is happening.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

The sense (!) of self is made out from the memory if these. Mostly image, but also sound and smell, and thought, memory of emotions etc. It is as I would live a fairy tale, but there is no one who writes the story. It’s just there. Hard to grasp this.

Yes, but here we are not looking to content of thoughts (story) we are looking to what is it made of when looking in DE.

What is found?

I’m a bit exhausted. Since month I’m burning in this topic. I will finish the books I started, and watch some videos which are on my list, but then I will go on a detox. I will just keep my sitting routine, but I will go back to the material level. And bring all these experiences, sensations with me, and let’s see. There is less weight on things, I go back to the breath a lot of time during the day and through this, I can come back to the reality, see what is in front of me, or just jump of the identification train. This is a completely other way of going through the day. Not long ago, I could stuck in the mud up to my head and had to hoist myself out of it, like Baron Münchhausen. Now it’s like, I would get stuck only up to my ankles and it’s easy to get me fee out of the mud. But still the mud is there, stucking happens, contraction in the heart, belly, jaw, shoulder can happen, when „bad” thoughts fly through. I let this voice, which is doubtfull about this whole process also just fly through and don't take it too seriously.

I get it, this is intense stuff! However, the question is asking what is found relating to a sense of self when looking in DE!


HOW TO DISTINGUISH TRUTH FROM A LIE

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. You don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I".

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

NB "Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that? *

Do you see the difference between Actual Sensation & the thought interpretation of Sensation?

Can you find any "self" in anything Actual?


Love,
Rowena

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!
The questions regarding lying we went through already, I wouldn’t come back to that again.

What comes up when reading that there is no self, has never been, and self is just a made up story?
Please describe any emotions that might arise (an emotion is a sensation and a label such as anger).

Sadness, grief. But it is also liberating in the same time.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

So let’s see again. It’ mostly a contraction in the body. Mostly in the heart area.

Do you see the difference between Actual Sensation & the thought interpretation of Sensation?

Yes, I think I can slowly diferentiate between them.

Can you find any "self" in anything Actual?

No. It’s just being, just happening.
Hugs.
Sebi

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

The questions regarding lying we went through already, I wouldn’t come back to that again.

Oops, yes I did send it to you. It popped into mind when you mentioned this:

This morning in my meditation about this, a huge weight dropped, or is dropping still. Realizing this, it means I can’t do anything wrong, there is a necessity in everything. This arrived to me some time ago, but now it feels more convincing, it goes deeper. There is a huge relief in just happening and letting it happen. Or to say it better: not to cling to the idea, that I can not let it happen.

Is this expansive? i.e. could be considered as true?

But still there is this voice in the background, a bit more silent, but I can hear it, it says that this is BS. I’m the self, this whole thing is just a sick kind of theoretical philosophy.

What was going on in the body when that voice was defending "the self"?


What comes up when reading that there is no self, has never been, and self is just a made up story?
Please describe any emotions that might arise (an emotion is a sensation and a label such as anger).

Sadness, grief. But it is also liberating in the same time.

Yes, and yes! Can you be with the sensations labelled sadness and or grief?
How does liberating feel?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

So let’s see again. It’ mostly a contraction in the body. Mostly in the heart area.

Yes, so it seems to be made of sensation.
Does a sensation have agency?

Can you find any "self" in anything Actual?

No. It’s just being, just happening.

Yes.

Try this:

PALM FLIPPING EXERCISE

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

- How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Love
Rowena

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!

Is this expansive? i.e. could be considered as true?

Yes, since then it comes and goes during the day. It’ an ungraspable sensation.

What was going on in the body when that voice was defending "the self"?

Contraction in the heart/stomach area. Heart is pumping faster.

Yes, and yes! Can you be with the sensations labelled sadness and or grief?

There is a contraction in the heart and like a punch in the stomach.

How does liberating feel?

Like a weight is lifted from the chest. I can breathe freely.

Does a sensation have agency?

Yes and no. When it comes, because I was triggered, then there is no doer. But I can make a decision, that I want to feel a sensation, and I put on the music which triggers it, or I think about it in a focused way, I relive a memory e.g.

- How is the movement controlled?

By my brain, by a complex neuron process. On the other hand, it has a feeling of „just happening”.

- Does a thought control it?

It’s a strange feeling. Like a thought without voice. I don’t have to say that „hand turn right”, I just give the signal.
It’s a mix of controlling it, since if there is no will, no focus on turning the hand, than it will not turn. But when it is turning, there is a slight sensation of just happening.

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Located no, but there is a sense of will/focus.

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

There are 2 kinds of movement, as I see it now. The automatic ones, like scratching the head, these are happening automatically, and there are precise movements, where a kind of focus is needed. When I consciously turn the hand, I feel this will/doer. But then if I just look at my hand thoughtlessly, and the dance of the hand begins, moving the fingers etc, than this doer disappears.

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There is a decision in the exercise. But then when I let the hand move freely, then it doesn’t has this taste anymore. It’ like a difference between walking on a rope and dancing contact improvisation.

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

It just happened. I’m right handed, so the right hand is used more.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

An individual no, but a will/focus yes. Something gives the command to move the movehandup.exe file.

Hugs,
Sebi

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!
There are some experiences, I would like to share.
After the “apple exercise”, I started to un-label the things around me. This turned into an experience meanwhile I was dishwashing. For a glimpse of a moment I felt huge love towards the glass I wash washing. And I realized that how much we label and categorize love. In this state I couldn’t make any difference between the love I had felt towards the glass and my dogs, or a human being. It was as I'm a part of it, or it is a part of me. Since then, this kind of feeling is many times recognized, maybe not with this vehemently, but it’s there. I ask myself how somebody would communicate this to his children, or partner…? Darling I love you as much, as I love this tomato on the table…haha, crazy…

The other thing is with people. Today I was amongst them, which is not so often in my life, since I live alone on a hillside on my farm, and I had the same acceptance towards them and I somehow saw very clear, how intrinsic the story, the persona is in everybody’s eyes. How deeply we are flooded with our characters.
I need to be more amongst others to test my state, haha…

There was another interesting situation: a bad looking outclass guy sat in front of me in my box, where I was eating, without asking if this place would be free, or at least making eye contact. So he sat in my face, meanwhile I was eating. First this surprised me of course, and I felt the rage coming up. “How dare you, you bastard!?” Then immediately the question came, who feels the rage. And I saw the label again. How I labeled this gesture, and that there is only the label, but nobody to feel offended. Suddenly the feeling went away, and I was continuing to eat, 50cm from the guys face, without any disturbance.

Regarding movement: I’m focusing on my moving, after the “hands up and down exercise”, and more and more I feel, that the body is moving by itself, as the movement would just happen.

Strange times…:)

Hugs
Sebi

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

Is this expansive? i.e. could be considered as true?
Yes, since then it comes and goes during the day. It’ an ungraspable sensation.

Yes!

Remember:
Lies are contractions. tense, tight & heavy.
Truth is expansive, relaxed, loose & light.

What was going on in the body when that voice was defending "the self"?
Contraction in the heart/stomach area. Heart is pumping faster.

Could this be considered a lie?

Yes, and yes! Can you be with the sensations labelled sadness and or grief?
There is a contraction in the heart and like a punch in the stomach.

Lie?

How does liberating feel?
Like a weight is lifted from the chest. I can breathe freely.

Truth?

Does a sensation have agency?
Yes and no. When it comes, because I was triggered, then there is no doer. But I can make a decision, that I want to feel a sensation, and I put on the music which triggers it, or I think about it in a focused way, I relive a memory e.g.

This is worth a deeper investigation….. Remember we are always looking at DE.
Look at Sensation….is it anything more than just that?
Look at the sensation as your hand touches your face, feel the hand on your face.
Does a sensation make a decision?
Can a contraction in the heart area have agency?

- How is the movement controlled?
By my brain, by a complex neuron process.

LOOK in DE,
Can you find a brain in DE?
Or a complex neuron process?
Or is this just thought content?

On the other hand, it has a feeling of just happening.

Yes

- Does a thought control it?
It’s a strange feeling. Like a thought without voice. I don’t have to say that „hand turn right”,
I just give the signal.

Where can this "I" be found in DE?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
There are 2 kinds of movement, as I see it now. The automatic ones, like scratching the head, these are happening automatically, and there are precise movements, where a kind of focus is needed.

When I consciously turn the hand, I feel this will/doer.

Where is this this will/doer located? As a thought, or as a sensation?
Can a thought think? Can a thought have will/focus?
As a sensation? Can a sensation think or have have will/focus?

But then if I just look at my hand thoughtlessly, and the dance of the hand begins, moving the fingers etc, than this doer disappears.

Yes! Without thought, "the dance of the hand begins". Love this!

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
There is a decision in the exercise. But then when I let the hand move freely, then it doesn’t has this taste anymore. It’ like a difference between walking on a rope and dancing contact improvisation.

In DE, are you sure there is decision?
Where can a decider be located? As a thought? Can a thought decide?
Can you think what your next thought will be? -

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
An individual no, but a will/focus yes. Something gives the command to move the movehandup.exe file.

Where is this will/focus to be located in DE?
What is it that decides what to focus attention on?
Can it be found in DE? (Seeing, Hearing, Feeling/touching, Thinking, etc. ?)
Or is attention just happening?

Please do the PALM FLIPPING EXERCISE over and over again and this time use both hands.
Place them both in the air out in front of you and watch them flipping with relaxed curiosity
Watch which hand flips, what decides which hand flips and when?>
Keeping in mind the questions from the previous exercise, What do you find?
Observe any sensations as you do this.


OBSERVING THOUGHTS
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.

Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It might seem as if thoughts have some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there really is an organised sequence?
Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Look closely and let me know how that goes for you.


Stay relaxed and curious!

Love,
Rowena

[Noro]

Hello again Sebi,

After the “apple exercise”, I started to un-label the things around me. This turned into an experience meanwhile I was dishwashing. For a glimpse of a moment I felt huge love towards the glass I wash washing. And I realized that how much we label and categorize love. In this state I couldn’t make any difference between the love I had felt towards the glass and my dogs, or a human being. It was as I'm a part of it, or it is a part of me. Since then, this kind of feeling is many times recognized, maybe not with this vehemently, but it’s there. I ask myself how somebody would communicate this to his children, or partner…? Darling I love you as much, as I love this tomato on the table…haha, crazy…

Beautiful, and crazy !! I too have had an experience like this Sebi, it is totally crazy and totally beautiful!

The other thing is with people. Today I was amongst them, which is not so often in my life, since I live alone on a hillside on my farm, and I had the same acceptance towards them and I somehow saw very clear, how intrinsic the story, the persona is in everybody’s eyes. How deeply we are flooded with our characters.
I need to be more amongst others to test my state, haha…

There is nothing like being with others to test our state. The 'love' state will come and go, sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly, like the clouds on a windy day, and our conditioned character with all the patterns of defensiveness etc. childhood traumas etc. will resurface. These are long-standing ingrained patterns of habit. They will take time to be seen through.
It is all simply, what is happening!

There was another interesting situation: a bad looking outclass guy sat in front of me in my box, where I was eating, without asking if this place would be free, or at least making eye contact. So he sat in my face, meanwhile I was eating. First this surprised me of course, and I felt the rage coming up. “How dare you, you bastard!?” Then immediately the question came, who feels the rage. And I saw the label again. How I labeled this gesture, and that there is only the label, but nobody to feel offended. Suddenly the feeling went away, and I was continuing to eat, 50cm from the guys face, without any disturbance.

Well caught Sebi! If you want to take this further, next time you can look deeper. When anger or rage appears THERE IS ALWAYS A SENSATION IN THE BODY. It is through noticing the sensations in the body and being able to stay with them as they move and fluctuate that will be the key factor in becoming free from past conditioning.

Have you heard about the ten Fetters from Buddhism? This is not something we will look into here with LU, but what you have just described above could be linked to seeing into the 'mechanics' of the 5th Fetter of ill-will and aversion. Here is a link, if you are interested: https://buddhist-spirituality.com/suffe ... e%2C%20(8)

Regarding movement: I’m focusing on my moving, after the “hands up and down exercise”, and more and more I feel, that the body is moving by itself, as the movement would just happen.

You are on a roll! Lovely!

Rowena :)

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!

Remember:
Lies are contractions. tense, tight & heavy.
Truth is expansive, relaxed, loose & light.

Listening to your heart actually means to see, if there is contraction (Lie) or relaxation (truth) in the heart area. The same goes for the gutt feeling, These are instinctive meters for lie or truth, reality or illusion. Language is wise.

Look at Sensation….is it anything more than just that?
Look at the sensation as your hand touches your face, feel the hand on your face.
Does a sensation make a decision?
Can a contraction in the heart area have agency?
Can you find a brain in DE?
Or a complex neuron process?
Or is this just thought content?

Answer for the above mentioned questions: No.

Where can this "I" be found in DE?

Nowhere.

Where is this this will/doer located? As a thought, or as a sensation?

It’s a thought, that there must be something there, and generates the sensation of „me”.

Can a thought think? Can a thought have will/focus?

No.

As a sensation? Can a sensation think or have have will/focus?

No.

Where is this will/focus to be located in DE?
What is it that decides what to focus attention on?
Can it be found in DE? (Seeing, Hearing, Feeling/touching, Thinking, etc. ?)
Or is attention just happening?

It is as the story would write itself. And it is like being a part of this storyline. Being the story itself.

Where are they coming from and going to?

From a void, into the void.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

The answer for the questions above is: No.

It might seem as if thoughts have some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there really is an organised sequence?
Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

It’s a chain of trains. They are generating, pulling each other.

Regarding thoughts ands daydreaming.
I have a very vivid fantasy and used to log out many times, when I was a teenager. Then meditation came, and I started to see the flood of thoughts and labeled it as bad and misunderstood the whole meaning of meditation. I thought that Samadhi is the goal, the thoughtless state. And thoughts and most of all daydreaming is evil.
Now I see, that this is just part of reality. Daydreaming is a very nice thing. I let it flow, it’s also just reality, doesn’t takes “me” away from anything. There is no me, jut enjoyment of the vivid pictures, adventures in my mind, which appear sometimes. Mostly when listening to music.
The same with feelings. They come and go, but they don't stick to anything. As Jim newman said in an interview: Experience is a ping pont, a here and there. But there is now here, so there is no ping pong, only ping :)

Of course, I say this now, that there is no huge problem or danger in the story. I'm curious, if it turns out that I'm seriously ill, which I 'm going to find out in the coming weeks, that if under that presure, this state stays, or how sticky the thoughts, the fear, regarding the body will be. Of course I hope that it won't be tested this way, we'll see.


Hugs,
Sebi