Identity vs Who am I

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pennylane
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Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2024 5:46 pm

Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby pennylane » Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:31 am

yes agreed, and it has been shown that babies eyes dilate very large when shown a picture of a snake, but not at a picture of a knife for example. Evolution likely dictates.. avoiding a snake is related to survival, a knife maybe or maybe not.
This is unsatisfying as an answer because it leads to more questions. Without directly connecting an experience to a danger or receiving instruction from someone else about it, I don't see why one would startle at all. For example, as a child I didn't know the coils on the stove were hot. They were enticingly red. My mother said, don't touch. It's hot. You will get a burn. But I touched. And only then did I fully understand what she meant. I learned what the language labels meant and I learned the experience (which I never wanted to repeat).

But now it is involuntary for me to avoid touching the hot stovetop. This experience was programmed by memory into my body's reaction. I don't have to think not to touch the hot stove. My body just ensures that I don't without thinking about it. But how was this program built? And if there are innate startle reactions that confer some evolutionary advantage, then how could the memory have been passed to program it in? What is the origin of the program that causes a reaction to something that has never been experienced?

Just another puzzle to ponder.
If you reflect back on the question that we started with.. What comes up when reading that there is no "separate self," never has been & never will be? It is all a made up story.
How does it feel in the body to sit with that sentence, answer from Direct Experience.
I don't feel anything that can been seen, heard, smelled, tasted or touched.
All reading that sentence does is bring up thoughts. In the land of thoughts I'm intrigued. But I don't feel anything concrete or tactile in reading that sentence. I do not feel any presence of an inner self using only these 5 senses.

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Sat Feb 17, 2024 3:21 am

Hi Kat,
This is unsatisfying as an answer because it leads to more questions.


Yes, you are looking with your mind and entertaining thoughts and thinking will always only lead to more questions.

The pointing's at LU are directed at seeing that there is no inherent self. This requires using the pointing's and looking outside of thought, this is looking from DE only, not what we "think" is happening.
In the land of thoughts I'm intrigued.
We are not in the land of thoughts, please answer from direct experience, is there a self outside of thought? Can you find a Kat outside of your thoughts?


Let's look at the difference between direct experience and content
of thought.

Cup Exercise:
There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’
So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, color
and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a
handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile.
Do you have a clear picture in mind?
Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?
The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images,
their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not
‘real’, they are just fantasies.

Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts.
Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s
about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination.

Looking forward to hear how it goes..
Warmly
Jana

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pennylane
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2024 5:46 pm

Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby pennylane » Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:56 am

Can you see this?
Yes. I can see that the thought of a cup is not the same as an actual physical cup.
But that was not what I was communicating previously. You asked how does it feel in the body to sit with the idea that there is no "separate self". I answered that I don't feel anything about this statement that can be described as direct experience.

How is "separate self" defined?

Consciousness is separate from the body. And separate from physical reality. But memories are recordings made from events that were directly experienced. Memories are a function of consciousness. They are not just made up stories.

Reality (the cup itself) is bound by space and time. Consciousness (thought of a cup) is not. It is eternal. Thoughts may be entirely imagined or they may be memories which have a link to reality as it was when the event happened.
Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening...
I found that thought content is independent of the direct experience of events.

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CrystalBeach
Posts: 90
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Wed Feb 21, 2024 5:38 pm

Hi Kat,
You asked how does it feel in the body to sit with the idea that there is no "separate self". I answered that I don't feel anything about this statement that can be described as direct experience.
Yes, just checking in with you, it helps in pointing.
Consciousness is separate from the body. And separate from physical reality. But memories are recordings made from events that were directly experienced. Memories are a function of consciousness. They are not just made up stories.
Where is the consciousness that is separate from the body and reality? Describe it in detail, location, shape size?
How are memories a function of consciousness. Are memories different from thoughts about the future? If so how?

warmly
Jana

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pennylane
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Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2024 5:46 pm

Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby pennylane » Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:24 am

Where is the consciousness that is separate from the body and reality? Describe it in detail, location, shape size?
How are memories a function of consciousness. Are memories different from thoughts about the future? If so how?
Location: All around us as a detectable energy field that is felt as a tingling on the surface of the skin and emotional essence
Shape: It is not solid matter, so has no shape
Size: Infinite size as it is everywhere around us

Memories are a function of consciousness in that they are recordings of previous events that were directly experienced. They may not be perfectly recorded (different people remember things differently) but they affect the events experienced in the present time. And they can be be proved as real using direct experience in the present. For example, I remembered a record album from my childhood at dinner with my family one night, vividly enough to laugh and mimic one of the stories being told. I then went to youtube in the present time and found a picture of the record album and could play in the present time the story just as I remembered it from my childhood and as I just described it to my family. The present day direct experience of seeing a picture of the long gone album I remembered and the direct experience of hearing the story being played back as described in the conscious memory proves to me that the memory is based on a previous direct experience in reality that was recorded into consciousness and affected my direct experience in the present time.

There are direct experiences that happen and then the mind labels the experience and records it into a memory. But consciousness (thought and feeling) also affects the world around us. Conscious thoughts and feelings can affect the crystalline structure of water as it freezes, for example, which can be seen with the eyes. Consciousness brings about the events that happen in the real world to be directly experienced. It spans the past, present, and future. It exists outside of the bounds of space and time. It is not bound to a body or the physical hologram that is experienced. That is why it cannot be easily described using the English language in terms of the limited senses which were only developed to observe a very small band of the frequencies that exist in our world. Just because the human five senses can't detect something doesn't mean that it is not there.

Your point will be, well all that is just a story. And bound to your beliefs. Of course it is. Because the consciousness actually creates the reality that is experienced rather than the other way around. We just don't know it is doing this because it happens without us controlling it directly.

Anyway, I see what this exercise is trying to convey. Kat, me, I, self are not entities of solid matter. They cannot be described using the five senses. They only exist as a vehicle to communicate. Otherwise they do not exist. But consciousness does exist or we could not create "stories" about anything and would not have memories. Can thoughts be directly experienced using the five senses? No. Can emotions/feelings be directly experienced using the five senses? No. Can the world of matter be directly experienced through the five senses? Yes. But the world consists of things we cannot directly experience using the five senses because they are out of the range of our sensing abilities. That doesn't necessarily make them imaginary.

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:54 am

Hi again Kat,

Let's look closely here:
There are direct experiences that happen and then the mind labels the experience and records it into a memory. But consciousness (thought and feeling) also affects the world around us. Conscious thoughts and feelings can affect the crystalline structure of water as it freezes, for example, which can be seen with the eyes.

Is this something you can directly experience? Or is it a thought based conclusion, e.g experience of a thought which is taken to be true. Very simply, is it possible to observe here now in this very moment that a thought and a feeling can affect the crystalline structure of water?

warmly,
Jana

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Mon Feb 26, 2024 2:24 pm

Hi Kat,


It's been a couple of days, how are you? Do you have anything you want to share?

Jana

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pennylane
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2024 5:46 pm

Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby pennylane » Wed Feb 28, 2024 7:04 am

Hi Jana,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I was on a ski trip and didn't have the time to give to this the last few days.
Is this something you can directly experience? Or is it a thought based conclusion, e.g experience of a thought which is taken to be true. Very simply, is it possible to observe here now in this very moment that a thought and a feeling can affect the crystalline structure of water?
No. But what makes direct experience (defined as the very limited 5 senses) so special? Why is that and only that considered "reality"? Thoughts are for labeling and categorizing direct experiences as they are experienced. What does it mean for something to be "really happening"?

Is the realization that there is no "inherent self" important? Wouldn't that realization also just be a thought and thus a made-up story? Can one directly experience the lack of an "inherent self"?

Memories are different from thoughts about the future because they are recordings of events directly experienced. The physical artifacts from an event (photos, sound recordings, etc) can be directly experienced and verify the memory of the event. Thoughts of the future are not recordings. They are events imagined that have not yet been directly experienced.

I will try to observe my thoughts as they arise more in the coming days and see how their content matches up to what is happening around me which can be experienced using the five senses. I'll respond then again.

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CrystalBeach
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Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Thu Feb 29, 2024 3:34 am

Hi Kat,
Is the realization that there is no "inherent self" important? Wouldn't that realization also just be a thought and thus a made-up story? Can one directly experience the lack of an "inherent self"?
My job here is not to answer questions, I'm here to point and guide, the answers come through looking at your direct experience not through thinking and pondering concepts.

If you are very honest and look closely, what brought you to LU?

warmly,
Jana

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CrystalBeach
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:37 am

Re: Identity vs Who am I

Postby CrystalBeach » Mon Mar 04, 2024 5:38 pm

Hi Kat,


I'm just checking in on you, would you like to continue?

Jana


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